DC to Debut 'Joker Level' Villain in New Wonder Woman Series

[Primal Slayer]

What makes you say this? You really think Gunn & co. are already planning to make a movie based off of a run the public hasn't even sampled yet...much less given the thumbs up or thumbs down??

King is on Gunna cinematic creative team. If this goes to plan...could definitely see it quickly adapted

[Largo161]

King is on Gunna cinematic creative team. If this goes to plan...could definitely see it quickly adapted

He is? I didn't know that. Well, that does make a difference. Heh.

[Mel Dyer]

King's creation about to join The First Born and Grail in the 'Touted to become Wonder Woman's archnemesis before fizzling out' queue of non-starters

But does that mean that we'll never support a creative team's efforts to repair what editor Robert Kanigher didn't get done in the Silver Age, ..when writers and editors were building the mythosae of SUPERMAN, BATMAN and FANTASTIC FOUR? Kanigher didn't develop a regular supporting cast and rogues gallery, ..and we're just stuck with that?

Aren't we just doubling down on Kanigher's editorial waste, when we don't welcome King and other modern writers introducing new super-villains, people might actually like better, than Cheetah, Butta and Shoppa?

[SiegePerilous02]

But does that mean that we'll never support a creative team's efforts to repair what editor Robert Kanigher didn't get done in the Silver Age, ..when writers and editors were building the mythosae of SUPERMAN, BATMAN and FANTASTIC FOUR? Kanigher didn't develop a regular supporting cast and rogues gallery, ..and we're just stuck with that?

Aren't we just doubling down on Kanigher's editorial waste, when we don't welcome King and other modern writers introducing new super-villains, people might actually like better, than Cheetah, Butta and Shoppa?

But Kanigher mostly ignored the Golden Age rogues in favor of his own mostly forgettable creations (barring Egg Fu, who isn't memorable for great reasons). So isn't a writer pushing their own creation to the forefront continuing in his footsteps?

And Marston and his team considered Cheetah the arch and liked using her.

[Aegis]

Nothing indicates he is.

Except for the text in the article? He says that she's extremely powerful and can't be easily defeated (with force) so the new villain is going to strike at the heart.

[Agent Z]

Jealousy in some form or another is pretty consistent across Priscilla and Barbara, and made it into WW84.

Jealousy wasn't really a factor into Diana and Barbara's enmity until Rebirth. Rebirth Barbara is more a take on the original Vanessa than the original Barbara Minerva.

The one thing the DCAU did right was simplifying her motive down to hating Hippolyta for old slights and taking it out on Diana.

Wasn't that her origin in the Silver Age?

Her role in Vanessa's transformation is kind of a forgotten bit of WW trivia. Ruckas first run is more high profile than Jimenez, and she had fallen into Cale's hands in that. So much so that Veronica and Dr. Cyber were responsible for it in Bloodlines, and Psycho in Rebirth. "Death in the Family" belongs to the Joker, but DC doesn't seem to care for consistency in which villain corrupts Vanessa.

Perhaps but it's something at least. No version of Cheetah has ever accomplished something like that.

[Mel Dyer]

But Kanigher mostly ignored the Golden Age rogues in favor of his own mostly forgettable creations (barring Egg Fu, who isn't memorable for great reasons). So isn't a writer pushing their own creation to the forefront continuing in his footsteps?

And Marston and his team considered Cheetah the arch and liked using her.

The Baroness was Wonder Woman's most recurring nemesis and Dr. William Marston's favorite, until around 1948, when Kanigher and others took over the writing reins, after Dr. Marston's death. Before Cheetah, Mars, Doctor Psycho, Eviless and even Queen Clea were regarded as Wonder Woman's most important adversaries and racked up multiple appearances in the comic, comparable to Cheetah's two or three, before the end of World War II.

Eviless and Queen Clea were even acknowledged as Wonder W's 'archnemesis' or 'archfoe', on promotional materials for the WW newspaper strip and toys.

I understand that Dr. Marston had an affection for Cheetah, as much as for Psycho and certainly his cosmic menace, Mars, and his courtiers. The reason we're talking about Cheetah, today, is because of the 1970s SUPER FRIENDS TV cartoon, in which Cheetah stood in for Catwoman, because of some licensing entanglement with CBS. Cheetah was used on a ton of merchandise and promo stuff, afterwards, ..and we've been stuck with her, ever since.

Roy Thomas made a helluvan effort to relieve the WW comic and us fans of our Cheetah saturation situation, introducing the original, Mars-powered Silver Swan into the WW mythos. She was such a breath of fresh, silvery air! Like Diana's most entertaining enemies, she was basically an evil wonder-woman - a physical match for WW, with her own myth-inspired powers and easy to understand, built-in motivation for menacing mankind. There was a fan-buzz in the letter columns, asking for more Silver Swan...real HEAT - Crisis blew all of that to crap, and here we are!

Hold it! Actually, it was the SUPER POWERS event (cartoon AND toys), which popped Silver Swan's balloon, even before Crisis! Silver Swan had barely made it onto a few coloring books and dry-transfer game books, before marketing pros started reaching for more Cheetah, after SUPER POWERS caught on. Again, Cheetah's who everyone understood as Wonder Woman's nemesis, because of the Saturday morning cartoons, and I guess that's who the marketing cats went with. Cheetah dominated this arena, for all of those reasons AND that colorful costume - THEN, came CRISIS and revised, post-Crisis comics, ..and we've been stuck with Cheetah as the default 'arch', ever since.

I'm just running all of that down for some of you, to show that Tom King isn't the first guy to swing for the fences, trying to give this GREAT comic, we love so much, a deservedly memorable and formidable archenemy. The Cheetah of our speculative discourse n forums like this one ..is NOT the Cheetah we've been reading in WW comics, for as long as we can remember. The actual Cheetah-Cheetah, for the most of her published existence, has been a dud. I don't know why writers couldn't take a sinister, power-obsessed European countess, Barbara Minerva, and make her Wonder Woman's Victor Von Doom, but they couldn't and haven't...

And George 'the Titan' Perez certainly left all the pieces there, for future creators to run with. Phil Jimenez made a valiant effort, but I think Perez is the best friend Cheetah ever had. Even with all of that behind her AND a blockbuster film, Cheetah's popularity isn't anywhere near Loki's, Joker's, Luthor's, Darkseid's or Vader's.

I may be chronically critical of how the WW comic has been developed, over the years - even critical of us fans, at times - but I share your frustration, here. Lady Barbara Minerva is a total bad@$$. While the Cheetah has primarily been a supernatural weapon, it's Barbara, Dr. Minerva, who's been the monster and the mastermind. She might have shown to have been driven by as many dreams of global conquest as Luthor or HYDRA - with her Cheetah-form as a sort of supernatural battle-suit like Darth Vader's - but she's almost never been written that way. All writers see is the Cheetah and some Dr. Jeckyl/Mr. Hyde fantasy, that derails Perez's revised creation and reduces her to Dr. marston's screwed up sorority chick, from the 1940s.

All writers see are those spots, the tail, the catty characteristics, ..and any hope of cashing in on the potential that Perez left on the table for Minerva-Cheetah ..usually runs out of gas, right there. How long are we supposed to wait? Any writer, who signs up to do WW, can see that the great, definitive, game-changing, industry-shaking Cheetah story - it just isn't there! It's never been there, and all of our speculation cannot change that, ..with Cheetah, Ares, Cyber, Circe or any of them. It's infuriating to ask ourselves why can't SOME-body just pick up with Minerva-Cheetah, where George Perez left off? Add to that, seeing Joker and Luthor and Vader, all having had such measurably better starts, than any of WW's foes - again, I share your frustration.

Maybe, Tom King trying to create a solidly inevitable archenemy for Wonder Woman - one that should have manifested in 1956 and might have inspired a volume of GREAT, critic and industry-acclaimed stories by 2023 - isn't the end of the world for us hard-riding Kangaliers. maybe, we should give him a chance.

I'll wish anybody gutsy enough to try to repair the squandered potential of WONDER WOMAN comic, the greatest success. I hope Janus isn't gone for good, because she's a GREAT Wonder-villain, ..and the CloonRad cast is the most promising, since 1945. Shoot all of that down to get Miss Debbie Domaine Feety Pajamas, back - is THAT really what we're doing here? I'll pass, thank you.

Everything really will be okay.

[Fuzzy Mittens]

Is there some reason Ares or Mars can't mock WW, by inhabiting the body of a mortal woman, ..like Veronica Cale or whoever?

Nothing at all. Ares Buchanan was a small time crook who was made an avatar of Ares, nothing says it cannot be used on established foes. Someone just needs to play with the idea.

For that matter Ares has had oh so very many champions over the years.
Be it unknowing heroes whom he granted power to whose acts of heroism only incite more war (Bombardier)
To regular mortals who are granted incredible power and getting their wishes granted on the condition they slay Wonder Woman (Original Silver Swan)
Creating a champion from nothing to fulfill his will (Crimson Centipede)
An unknowing pawn whose efforts to prove her genius would plunge the world into even greater war. (Movie Doctor Poison)
To an assortment of crazed military types who are simply devout worshippers of war who wish to serve Ares will, and are scattered across the franchise.

And thats not even going into the gaggle of godly followers Ares has at his beck and call with Eris, Phobos, Deimos, the Duke of Deception, the Lord of Conquest, Earl of Greed, and probably others im overlooking.

Just like the whole 'every writer wants to make their own arch nemesis for Wonder Woman' for the prestige of being the one writer to make a permanent figure for Wonder Woman to combat,
A champion of Ares will get established by one creative, only to be forgotten by another.


Though in regards to arch nemesis' in general, its kinda hilarious how often people try with those. Devastation, Grail, Veronica Cale, First Born....
I think part of what made White Magician so effective in the run he was in was simply that Messner-Loeb just made a villain and never put on airs about trying to make a whole promotion about him being 'Wonder Womans ARCH NEMESIS' like others tend to do.

[SiegePerilous02]

The Baroness was Wonder Woman's most recurring nemesis and Dr. William Marston's favorite, until around 1948, when Kanigher and others took over the writing reins, after Dr. Marston's death. Before Cheetah, Mars, Doctor Psycho, Eviless and even Queen Clea were regarded as Wonder Woman's most important adversaries and racked up multiple appearances in the comic, comparable to Cheetah's two or three, before the end of World War II.

Eviless and Queen Clea were even acknowledged as Wonder W's 'archnemesis' or 'archfoe', on promotional materials for the WW newspaper strip and toys.

I understand that Dr. Marston had an affection for Cheetah, as much as for Psycho and certainly his cosmic menace, Mars, and his courtiers. The reason we're talking about Cheetah, today, is because of the 1970s SUPER FRIENDS TV cartoon, in which Cheetah stood in for Catwoman, because of some licensing entanglement with CBS. Cheetah was used on a ton of merchandise and promo stuff, afterwards, ..and we've been stuck with her, ever since.

Roy Thomas made a helluvan effort to relieve the WW comic and us fans of our Cheetah saturation situation, introducing the original, Mars-powered Silver Swan into the WW mythos. She was such a breath of fresh, silvery air! Like Diana's most entertaining enemies, she was basically an evil wonder-woman - a physical match for WW, with her own myth-inspired powers and easy to understand, built-in motivation for menacing mankind. There was a fan-buzz in the letter columns, asking for more Silver Swan...real HEAT! Then, Crisis blew all of that to crap, and here we are!

Ok, some of these "facts" you are pulling up are easily disputed. The Baroness ceased being Diana's enemy in Wonder Woman #3 written by Marston himself in 1943. She is a supporting cast member from that point on, not a villain.

You will have to provide proof of Clea and Eviless being acknowledged as arch foes for the newspaper strip, because neither one of them actually appears in it (but Cheetah does). Eviless is not actually named until Wonder Woman #28, otherwise she is just one of many faces in the Empire of Saturn. Clea also only has a solo starring role in Wonder Woman #8, and only a flashback cameo in Sensation Comics. Cheetah had three starring roles in stories in Wonder Woman #6, an issue of Sensation Comics and Comic Cavalcade. Plus the newspaper strip, plus two never published stories by Kanigher and Peter that were printed in Bronze Age comics in which she was the main antagonist.

She has the distinction of being the only villain who became a villain out of personal hatred for Diana, was acknowledged as such in Marston's own prose and was used the most as a villain after Mars and his cohorts. Seems pretty clear the licensing issues with CBS just happened to line up with Marston's intentions for the villains. Which carried into Perez and how he made Ares the Big Bad, but Cheetah was the first supervillain he revamped

[SiegePerilous02]

Jealousy wasn't really a factor into Diana and Barbara's enmity until Rebirth. Rebirth Barbara is more a take on the original Vanessa than the original Barbara Minerva.




Wasn't that her origin in the Silver Age?



Perhaps but it's something at least. No version of Cheetah has ever accomplished something like that.

Rebirth Barbara is more a riff on Priscilla and Deborah, not Vanessa. The Swans have kinda been ripping off the Cheetah since Alexandros. Rucka worked in the jealousy angle towards the end of his first run, but even in Perez the themes of women tearing each other down to advance their own goals (and the impact it had on Diana's worldview) were present with Barbara like how they were with Priscilla.

Circe's motive in the Golden Age was being banished by Hippolyta. In the Bronze Age, it was the first of many prophecies about Diana, and teaming up with Tezkatlipoca.

Does it matter if Cheetah hasn't accomplished it? Circe couldn't hold onto it.

[Mel Dyer]

Ok, some of these "facts" you are pulling up are easily disputed. The Baroness ceased being Diana's enemy in Wonder Woman #3 written by Marston himself in 1943. She is a supporting cast member from that point on, not a villain.

You will have to provide proof of Clea and Eviless being acknowledged as arch foes for the newspaper strip, because neither one of them actually appears in it (but Cheetah does). Eviless is not actually named until Wonder Woman #28, otherwise she is just one of many faces in the Empire of Saturn. Clea also only has a solo starring role in Wonder Woman #8, and only a flashback cameo in Sensation Comics. Cheetah had three starring roles in stories in Wonder Woman #6, an issue of Sensation Comics and Comic Cavalcade. Plus the newspaper strip, plus two never published stories by Kanigher and Peter that were printed in Bronze Age comics in which she was the main antagonist.

She has the distinction of being the only villain who became a villain out of...

No, no, Siege...

You make a very good case for all of what you're arguing, but I'm not going to be providing proof on any of the above. If I had it, I'd have shared it. Instead of mounting an exhaustive research campaign to respond or do some kind of forum-judo with you, ..I'm just sharing what I know and have seen, having read WONDER WOMAN for some fifty years. While I enjoy these exchanges here, with all of you, ..I'm growing tired of it all - the speculative part.

I read somewhere that Cheetah and Angle Man were, at one time, Wonder Woman's most recurring supervillains. That sounds plausible to me. I don't need a coffee table book to nail that down for me; save yourself some typing and allow me to yield you the Wonder-floor.

So, dig, research, interview industry pros, dismiss it all - take what I've shared and do whatever you want with it. Have fun.

Nothing at all. Ares Buchanan was a small time crook who was made an avatar of Ares, nothing says it cannot be used on established foes. Someone just needs to play with the idea.

For that matter Ares has had oh so very many champions over the years.
Be it unknowing heroes whom he granted power to whose acts of heroism only incite more war (Bombardier)
To regular mortals who are granted incredible power and getting their wishes granted on the condition they slay Wonder Woman (Original Silver Swan)
Creating a champion from nothing to fulfill his will (Crimson Centipede)
An unknowing pawn whose efforts to prove her genius would plunge the world into even greater war. (Movie Doctor Poison)
To an assortment of crazed military types who are simply devout worshippers of war who wish to serve Ares will, and are scattered across the franchise.

And thats not even going into the gaggle of godly followers Ares has at his beck and call with Eris, Phobos, Deimos, the Duke of Deception, the Lord of Conquest, Earl of Greed, and probably others im overlooking.

Just like the whole 'every writer wants to make their own arch nemesis for Wonder Woman' for the prestige of being the one writer to make a permanent figure for Wonder Woman to combat...

Yep. That's basically what Roy Thomas tried to do with his creation of Silver Swan, ..the ambitions of Wonder Woman's most enduring nemesis, Mars, embodied in a deranged, evil wonder-woman. Loved it.

Brafrickin'vo, too.

[SiegePerilous02]

No, no, Siege...

You make a very good case for all of what you're arguing, but I'm not going to be providing proof on any of the above. If I had it, I'd have shared it. Instead of mounting an exhaustive research campaign to respond or do some kind of forum-judo with you, ..I'm just sharing what I know and have seen, having read WONDER WOMAN for some fifty years. While I enjoy these exchanges here, with all of you, ..I'm growing tired of it all - the speculative part.

So, dig, research, interview industry pros, dismiss it all - take what I've shared and do whatever you want with it. Have fun.



Yep. That's basically what Roy Thomas tried to do with his creation of Silver Swan, ..the ambitions of Wonder Woman's most enduring nemesis, Mars, embodied in a deranged, evil wonder-woman. Loved it.

Brafrickin'vo, too.

If you can't provide the proof, is it safe to assume it doesn't exist?

All it takes is a look at Comic Vine and the DC wiki to count up appearances. You don't have to have read WW for fifty years to see that Eviless was a background extra in the Golden Age who got the spotlight in a grand total of one issue (and got taken out halfway through).

[Mel Dyer]

If you can't provide the proof, is it safe to assume it doesn't exist?

All it takes is a look at Comic Vine and the DC wiki to count up appearances. You don't have to have read WW for fifty years to see that Eviless was a background extra in the Golden Age who got the spotlight in a grand total of one issue (and got taken out halfway through).

So, you haven't been reading WONDER WOMAN for fifty years. So what? I'm not offering that as competition or some kind of social status. I know about the wikis and all of that stuff you mentioned, but understand that they don't cover everything and are made to be updated, as more data becomes available to us. I'm not hung up on or in competition with a wiki page.

You're jousting with me...trying to, ..and I'm done. You're kicking at thin air.

No, ..it's not safe to say the promotional materials or merchandise, advertising Queen Clea and Eviless as 'Wonder Woman's archfoe', ..does not exist. I saw it, and I'm not the only one, who did, but we're older people and might not be hanging around on this message board, anymore. I also saw a rarely spoken of or seen (online) dry-transfer game book from the early 1980s, which features Cheetah, Silver Swan, Duke of Deception, Doctor Cyber, Angle Man - that might've been it, but maybe some others. Look for it, if you want proof so bad - wish you luck!

You can stack up any pile of facts you like. All I'm saying is that Cheetah isn't locked in as WW's archenemy ..and never was. If Tom King wants to introduce some new badguy, who might be better than Cheetah (who is no prize, for damshur), ..he won't be the first to try. Why don't you give the guy a chance?

I acknowledge and share all of your frustration as to why the published works aren't there to support anyone, outsideof our fan community, regarding Cheetah as a "Joker Level" anything. They should be, but it's been a mess with WW...a big, freaking mess, for as long as I can remember.

[SiegePerilous02]

So, you haven't been reading WONDER WOMAN for fifty years. So what? I'm not offering that as competition or some kind of social status. I know about the wikis and all of that stuff you mentioned, but understand that they don't cover everything and are made to be updated, as more data becomes available to us. I'm not hung up on or in competition with a wiki page.

You're jousting with me...trying to, ..and I'm done. You're kicking at thin air.

No, ..it's not safe to say the promotional materials or merchandise, advertising Queen Clea and Eviless as 'Wonder Woman's archfoe', ..does not exist. I saw it, and I'm not the only one, who did, but we're older people and might not be hanging around on this message board, anymore. I also saw a rarely spoken of or seen (online) dry-transfer game book from the early 1980s, which features Cheetah, Silver Swan, Duke of Deception, Doctor Cyber, Angle Man - that might've been it, but maybe some others. Look for it, if you want proof so bad - wish you luck!

You can stack up any pile of facts you like. All I'm saying is that Cheetah isn't locked in as WW's archenemy ..and never was. If Tom King wants to introduce some new badguy, who might be better than Cheetah (who is no prize, for damshur), ..he won't be the first to try. Why don't you give the guy a chance?

I acknowledge and share all of your frustration as to why the published works aren't there to support anyone, outsideof our fan community, regarding Cheetah as a "Joker Level" anything. They should be, but it's been a mess with WW...a big, freaking mess, for as long as I can remember.

Maybe the promotional materials do exist, but you're the first person I have seen ever mention them. Meanwhile, the collected newspaper strip can be bought on Amazon, and neither of them are actually in it beyond maybe cameos, but Cheetah is. So even if the promotions exist, they are probably just placeholders.

I'm not "demanding" proof, I'm just incredulous as you have a tendency to hype up random characters as a big deal (Jason, Janus, Adjudicator, Cassandra, Lennox) without the books actually backing that up or much enthusiasm from anyone else on here. Nobody can deny that Cheetah isn't the same level of the Joker or Lex, but her best appearances happen to coincide with Diana's few definitive runs as a big recurring player, and she endures in the merchandise. The only dispute is Ares and Circe are tied, but not surpassing her. Frankly, if we were gonna get someone else beyond those three, it would have happened long before now. King having a role in the new DCEU gives him a leg up on getting this villain to stick, bit we shouldn't treat any DC films as a given before they happen. We can give King a chance, but history has shown with the likes of White Magician, First Born, Devastation, the Morrigan and Genocide that hyped up new villains don't stick around.

[Nyssane]

No, ..it's not safe to say the promotional materials or merchandise, advertising Queen Clea and Eviless as 'Wonder Woman's archfoe', ..does not exist. I saw it, and I'm not the only one, who did, but we're older people and might not be hanging around on this message board, anymore. I also saw a rarely spoken of or seen (online) dry-transfer game book from the early 1980s, which features Cheetah, Silver Swan, Duke of Deception, Doctor Cyber, Angle Man - that might've been it, but maybe some others. Look for it, if you want proof so bad - wish you luck!

You have to admit it's a bit strange to use the promotional materials for your argument yet dismiss any requests for proof.