DC to Debut 'Joker Level' Villain in New Wonder Woman Series

[Mel Dyer]

Siege, I don't really care about anyone else's enthusiasm for this or that ..or consensus fan reality - Circe is her greatest villain ever; First Born is terrible; John Byrne is a bla'bla bla. I don't care about any of that.

What you're all prickly about doesn't and should never dictate what I or any of our fellow fans share on these boards...

Ever. When it does, we don't have a forum, anymore, ..but something weaker and less worthy of Wonder Woman.

I learn so much from you and our fellow comixeurs, here. If all we're going to do is butter each each other's biscuits, what a waste of an opportunity for real communication and exchanges of ideas, between Wondafans of diverse backgrounds and experiences.

That said, I ask again...? With the Silver Age gone, where will progress start with our beloved Wonder Woman comic? Will this comic ever get the rebirth it deserved, after the Golden Age - one that catches it up with other comics? What does that look like?

You argue Jason, Adjudicator, Mala or whoever don't have the successful books to justify my 'enthusiasm' about them. Very well...but you can't offer one Cheetah, Ares, Circe or Deva story that stands on peerage with any universally recognized BATMAN, SUPERMAN, SPIDER-MAN or X-MEN industry CLASSIC. Not one! And you can't...

Because in 2023, there aren't any! When does that change?

You have to admit it's a bit strange to use the promotional materials for your argument yet dismiss any requests for proof.

I don't have to admit anything, because I don't care whether you believe it or not - I know what I've seen with my own eyes and have discussed with other fans. I'm not Perry Mason prosecuting a murder case here...haha'ha. If you want the proof so bad, get on the Google box and find it yourself.

Yes, maybe that's strange to someone. Maybe, everything I say is strange to someone. Clothes were strange to naked people, once.

[Largo161]

Though in regards to arch nemesis' in general, its kinda hilarious how often people try with those. Devastation, Grail, Veronica Cale, First Born....
I think part of what made White Magician so effective in the run he was in was simply that Messner-Loeb just made a villain and never put on airs about trying to make a whole promotion about him being 'Wonder Womans ARCH NEMESIS' like others tend to do.

This pretty much sums up how I feel. WW's established rogues will always be there in the sandbox for whoever wants to play with them. If King wants to aim for the stars with his own new creation, more power to him. The hyperbole in the "marketing" does tend to backfire, though.

[Nyssane]

I don't have to admit anything, because I don't care whether you believe it or not - I know what I've seen with my own eyes and have discussed with other fans. I'm not Perry Mason prosecuting a murder case here...haha'ha. If you want the proof so bad, get on the Google box and find it yourself.

Yes, maybe that's strange to someone. Maybe, everything I say is strange to someone. Clothes were strange to naked people, once.

[OBrianTallent]

Just because some promotional material for a newspaper strip or toy hyped up a character as an "arch-nemesis" doesn't mean they actually earned any such authenticity, it's called a marketing tactic, an attention getter. The term "arch-nemesis" is an earned title that has been built upon by years or regular use of the character. However, I guess when you look at the actual definition of arch-nemesis...a chief enemy, it can literally be applied to anyone that is used in a run by a writer. Certainly takes some of the gravitas out of the term for comic book villains.
On the same note though, characters like Luthor, Joker, Loki have all earned what we term as archenemy or arch-nemesis because writers have used them continuously for decades. The only real character(s) WW has had that are in continuous rotation over the course of all of her series have been Cheetah predominantly, despite various incarnations. Circe wasn't used to any great affect (that I can think of) until George Perez. I do remember a few issues of her original series that used her, but those were far and few between. Ares would obviously be her next candidate. After that things start to get slimmer. Dr. Cyber, Silver Swan (not created until the 80s but at least has made media appearances) Doctor Poison...who else? None I can really think of. Yes, King can swing for the fences and create a new villain, but only time will tell if other writers pick up the character and the character is used in other media over the course of time. Otherwise, we fall back into the Devastation/Grail/Veronica Cole mode. I think it's pretty telling that Geoff Johns, Patty Jenkins and David Callaham used Maxwell Lord for the second Wonder Woman movie, a character who has never been a Wonder Woman villain outside of the Sacrifice storyline which is more used as a Superman story. They could have easily used Veronica Cale in that role, Lord had no inherent powers in the movie and relied on a device for what he did. He had a son who was used as an emotional tether for the character (not something he has in the comics). Why couldn't they have used Veronica for that? I think it would have been much more interesting to have a female character who showed such a juxtaposition to Diana and what she wanted to accomplish and how she did it. It would have also been believable to have Cale desire the object to be able to move ahead in a world that was still fairly male dominated at the time....but we got a Justice League/Superman villain instead. That says a lot about who and what outside media views as important for Wonder Woman (and in Johns' case....shame on you sir.)
They all have potential to be more than they have been, they just need editors and writers (or in some cases artists) to take a better interest in them. Grail could be a fantastic ongoing enemy for Wonder Woman. Her mother Myrina Black (bring her back to life please!) would be fun as an ongoing foil. Veronica Cale, Devastation, the Dark Gods, Clea, Osira, the Mask, the Blue Snowman...ok, maybe not...but the point is, for a villain to have that title, it cant just be handed out like candy, they have to be invested in. And let's face it...Wonder Woman's editorial backing has been quite lacking in supporting anything to do with her for decades and decades. It's all about throwing out the baby and keeping the bathwater. If we are going to be stuck with Jason as her brother...make him #@(%!^$ EVIL and use him. Grail is an Amazon/Apokalyptian hybrid....she already is #@(%!^$ EVIL...use her! Clea is the queen of an underwater empire (supposedly....) maybe Themyscira sits above her kingdom and she wants it! USE HER.
It all comes down to you can follow and believe the hype or you can look at evidence and unfortunately some people follow hype over evidence.

[HestiasHearth]

Speaking of Wonder Woman foes, if Cheetah, Ares and Circe were not widely considered Diana's "big 3" villains, who else would you consider (or would love for the world to consider) her Trinity of foes? My dream three would be Queen Clea, The Adjudicator, and Dr. Psycho. Yep.

[Primal Slayer]

Speaking of Wonder Woman foes, if Cheetah, Ares and Circe were not widely considered Diana's "big 3" villains, who else would you consider (or would love for the world to consider) her Trinity of foes? My dream three would be Queen Clea, The Adjudicator, and Dr. Psycho. Yep.

Gigantia, Psycho, Poison

[Pinsir]

When is this Tom King run coming out? It's been years at this point since I was invested in a Wonder Woman ongoing and King doesn't usually miss.

[OBrianTallent]

When is this Tom King run coming out? It's been years at this point since I was invested in a Wonder Woman ongoing and King doesn't usually miss.

The first issue comes out September 20th, so two weeks.

[Mel Dyer]

This pretty much sums up how I feel. WW's established rogues will always be there in the sandbox for whoever wants to play with them. If King wants to aim for the stars with his own new creation, more power to him. The hyperbole in the "marketing" does tend to backfire, though.

Couldn't agree more, Largo.

At this point, I'm not sure the WW comic gets a regular supporting cast, regular iconic setting and archnemesis, ..without a good old-fashioned editorial mandate. Editors used to be good for things like mandates, when comic companies had stables or 'bullpens' of hopelessly exploitable staff writers. [A terrible system, actually!] Now, the new editors communicate with writers or writers' agents, to chat up some idea the writer has..."What is it Celeb Writer X thinks he would like to do with Fire Marine, Julius?"

And that's how Wonder Woman keeps getting messed over. Bad.

I totally deserve that, Nysanne. LOL

And I'm not being a comedian, here - I really do wish I could dig up something on all that Golden Age and Silver Age stuff for you, like some images. I would like to see that WW dry-transfer thing, myself - it was INCREDIBLE! I'm just too tired, kangaboo.

So, buena suerte and happy hunting.

Just because some promotional material for a newspaper strip or toy hyped up a character as an "arch-nemesis" doesn't mean they actually earned any such authenticity, it's called a marketing tactic, an attention getter. The term "arch-nemesis" is an earned title that has been built upon by years or regular use of the character. However, I guess when you look at the actual definition of arch-nemesis...a chief enemy, it can literally be applied to anyone that is used in a run by a writer. Certainly takes some of the gravitas out of the term for comic book villains.
On the same note though, characters like Luthor, Joker, Loki have all earned what we term as archenemy or arch-nemesis because writers have used them continuously for decades. The only real character(s) WW has had that are in continuous rotation over the course of all of her series have been Cheetah predominantly, despite various incarnations. Circe wasn't used to any great affect (that I can think of) until George Perez. I do remember a few issues of her original series that used her, but those were far and few between. Ares would obviously be her next candidate. After that things start to get slimmer...

I agree with all of the above. At this rate in 2023, any designated 'arch' would be and feel like a mandate to the comic, ..like Stan Lee on the Mandarin with Iron Man. [Love him or hate him, Uncle Stan made stuff happen! He got some booboo done, we're still talking about!] Or Circe with post-Perez Wonder Woman! LOL

But, maybe...as we wave goodbye to Dr. Minerva and Siegfried (confirmed as Gundra's ex-husband) for the foreseeable future - as I see it, the BEST supporting cast, since World War II - maybe, we need some good old-fashioned, editorial mandates. A wiseacre, sharp-shooting secret agent and ex-cowgirl, ..a slightly world-weary Military Intelligence agent and war veteran, ..a bookish, werecheetah lady scientist ..AND a devilishly swashbuckling Viking, right out of a Harryhausen flick...led by wild, freedom-loving Amazon, Wonder Woman - got seriously mixed feelings about parting ways with half this new cast, when we've barely seen them play together.

If there's any comic, which could benefit from some narrative infrastructure, ..it's probably WONDER WOMAN.

Speaking of Wonder Woman foes, if Cheetah, Ares and Circe were not widely considered Diana's "big 3" villains, who else would you consider (or would love for the world to consider) her Trinity of foes? My dream three would be Queen Clea, The Adjudicator, and Dr. Psycho. Yep.

Not Diana's presently established 'big three' villains, ..but who I'd fly out of a burning apartment building with, if I could only save three - Queen Clea, Janus and Doctor Cyber.

[Fuzzy Mittens]

Yep. That's basically what Roy Thomas tried to do with his creation of Silver Swan, ..the ambitions of Wonder Woman's most enduring nemesis, Mars, embodied in a deranged, evil wonder-woman. Loved it.

Brafrickin'vo, too.

My favorite element of his run was that delightfully twisted dynamic between Silver Swan with her power over the minds of men, and Doctor Psycho with his mysogeny and psychic ability. Made for a delightfully twisted dynamic between the two of them.

This pretty much sums up how I feel. WW's established rogues will always be there in the sandbox for whoever wants to play with them. If King wants to aim for the stars with his own new creation, more power to him. The hyperbole in the "marketing" does tend to backfire, though.

Yeah, seconded.
No single writer can make a villain a mainstay for the franchise.
Heck, Kanigher had twenty years on the book and used Duke of Deception and Angleman some twenty times each in stories ranging from alien invasions to hired superpowered hitmen to psychic assaults to plane theft. Making them the most reoccuring villains across his long run.
Despite that, it didn't translate to most writers using them. If anything, Angleman recieved a reputation as a joke villain despite having some of the most absurdly broken powers in all of comics.

[Mel Dyer]

My favorite element of his run was that delightfully twisted dynamic between Silver Swan with her power over the minds of men, and Doctor Psycho with his mysogeny and psychic ability. Made for a delightfully twisted dynamic between the two of them.

I loved how Thomas used that power and imagining Silver Swan mind-controlling people to throw into Wonder Woman's path. The original SS was a measurably entertaining addition to the rogues gallery and, I think, was well on her way to greater things in the pages of Wonder Woman and the broader DCU, when SP and Crisis made her go bye-bye.

Yeah, seconded.
No single writer can make a villain a mainstay for the franchise.
Heck, Kanigher had twenty years on the book and used Duke of Deception and Angleman some twenty times each in stories ranging from alien invasions to hired superpowered hitmen to psychic assaults to plane theft. Making them the most reoccuring villains across his long run.
Despite that, it didn't translate to most writers using them. If anything, Angleman recieved a reputation as a joke villain despite having some of the most absurdly broken powers in all of comics.

Imagine if Wonder Woman had entered the Silver Age with a brash, sharp-shooting Texas cowgirl, ..a World War-weary, retired Military Intelligence agent, ..a bookish, werecat lady scientist and a laughing, daredevil Viking (right out of Fifties movies)! All the players were on the field for Robert Kanigher to do the kinds of stories he claimed (in interviews) to love so much - he had it all in WW! Imagine the comic we'd have had today, if only he could have seen all of that, ..but he couldn't (said as much in interviews)...

And here we are.

That said, I want Tom King to let Giganta eat Angle Man AND his Angler, ..and absorb his teleporting power, acquiring eye-beams like Darkseid's Omega Effect. There, it sounds crazy, ..but I typed it, anyway! Ha! LOL

[Dr. Poison]

The more I think about it, the more I realize there's no need for any of us to get all worked up about King's idea of creating a new arch-nemesis for Wonder Woman. We've been here before, with several other writers who wanted to do the same, all while Cheetah just sits back, snickers softly, and polishes her crown. She'll still be here when this attempt is all over, just like she was with the last several.

[Fuzzy Mittens]

I loved how Thomas used that power and imagining Silver Swan mind-controlling people to throw into Wonder Woman's path. The original SS was a measurably entertaining addition to the rogues gallery and, I think, was well on her way to greater things in the pages of Wonder Woman and the broader DCU, when SP and Crisis made her go bye-bye.

Agreed! Plus the idea to make Silver Swan Wonder Womans roomie, with her aware of Dianas true identity and Wonder Woman having no idea about her own, would have been fun to see toyed with.

Imagine if Wonder Woman had entered the Silver Age with a brash, sharp-shooting Texas cowgirl, ..a World War-weary, retired Military Intelligence agent, ..a bookish, werecat lady scientist and a laughing, daredevil Viking (right out of Fifties movies)! All the players were on the field for Robert Kanigher to do the kinds of stories he claimed (in interviews) to love so much - he had it all in WW! Imagine the comic we'd have had today, if only he could have seen all of that, ..but he couldn't (said as much in interviews)...

And here we are.

That said, I want Tom King to let Giganta eat Angle Man AND his Angler, ..and absorb his teleporting power, acquiring eye-beams like Darkseid's Omega Effect. There, it sounds crazy, ..but I typed it, anyway! Ha! LOL

Ive seen you list that specific collection before on here, did you make a fanfic with that premise at some point?


Also...I do not see King being the writer to give Giganta teleporting eyebeams. XD you'd need someone who leans more in the 'fantastical, wild off the rails' style of storytelling ^_^;

The more I think about it, the more I realize there's no need for any of us to get all worked up about King's idea of creating a new arch-nemesis for Wonder Woman. We've been here before, with several other writers who wanted to do the same, all while Cheetah just sits back, snickers softly, and polishes her crown. She'll still be here when this attempt is all over, just like she was with the last several.

.....In retrospect im kinda surprised weve never had an occasion where Cheetah was Ares champion. Either one has been name dropped as Dianas greatest foe on multiple occasions. An Ares empowered Cheetah would be quite horrifying. And it would probably make quite an impact more or less combining two of Wonder Womans greatest foes.

[Dr. Poison]

Agreed! Plus the idea to make Silver Swan Wonder Womans roomie, with her aware of Dianas true identity and Wonder Woman having no idea about her own, would have been fun to see toyed with.



Ive seen you list that specific collection before on here, did you make a fanfic with that premise at some point?


Also...I do not see King being the writer to give Giganta teleporting eyebeams. XD you'd need someone who leans more in the 'fantastical, wild off the rails' style of storytelling ^_^;


.....In retrospect im kinda surprised weve never had an occasion where Cheetah was Ares champion. Either one has been name dropped as Dianas greatest foe on multiple occasions. An Ares empowered Cheetah would be quite horrifying. And it would probably make quite an impact more or less combining two of Wonder Womans greatest foes.

My guess that no writer has thought of a semi-realistic way to connect Ares and Barbara. Like, why would Ares gives cheetah-like powers to a human and sick her on Wonder Woman? Cheetahs aren't usually thought of as an aggressive animal that represent war.

[SiegePerilous02]

My guess that no writer has thought of a semi-realistic way to connect Ares and Barbara. Like, why would Ares gives cheetah-like powers to a human and sick her on Wonder Woman? Cheetahs aren't usually thought of as an aggressive animal that represent war.

They could just do what Rucka did with Rebirth and have Ares need a demigod champion of his own. Since he makes a promise not to directly interfere with Diana's life after "Gods and Mortals," he could use some loopholes and casually manipulate events that lead to Barbara being cursed (preferably by Mafdet).