WW '92 - The Messner-Loebs Era General Discussion

[Primal Slayer]

Inspired by the 'John Byrne run thoughts', thought it'd be fun to discuss Messner-Loebs specifics - the good, the bad, etc....

[Nyssane]

I honestly quite like the WML stuff.

One of the first back-issues I ever got was Wonder Woman #63 so I have a fondness for the "Operation: Cheetah" story arc. I'd love to see someone bring back Drax and Barremargox, the demons who tried to take over Cheetah's body. Barremargox (the bride of Drax) in particular was a super interesting, cosmic horror type of villain.

I didn't know how to feel about it at the time, but the "Wonder Woman in Space" story arc was fun as hell. I loved Diana's eclectic group of female Space Pirates and I wish they stuck around longer.

The White Magician stuff was pretty good, and I liked him using the news reporter (and then transforming her into a monster). I also liked the whole mafia angle with Juliana Sazia and company.

Dang, this run was pretty great.

[Gaius]

Reasonably underrated run for the most part. The Space Pirates and Taco Wiz stuff are actually pretty fun, and too many aren't in on the joke with the Taco Wiz stuff.

Also created Artemis, who is pretty much the best WW supporting character, even if the story pretty much character assassinates Hippoylta.

Aside from his writing of Hippolyta, I'd say just about the worst thing about this run was it pretty much never a good/great artist to go with it.

It's nice DC is finally putting it back into publication, I hope whatever royalties Loebs get are able to help him out.

[Psy-lock]

The Contest was the first WW story I ever read, so I definitely have some fondness for this run. I think WML really gets what Diana is all about. There's a big focus on love and redemption and on women supporting other women, even when they're supposed to be enemies. The cheesecake art kind of ruins the feminist message, but it's definitely there.

[Agent Z]

I don't know what he was thinking with that retcon of Hippolyta and Heracles. To say nothing of his whitewashing (both racially and metaphorically) of the Bana.

The only thing I will credit Messner-Loebs for when it comes to Wonder Woman is his creation of Artemis. And even she was better under other writers.

[Alpha]

It doesn't have the best world-building, nor the most defining plots, but it's the best Diana has been written since Marston, with only Rucka coming anywhere close.

There are just so many different character moments from Diana. She makes legimately funny jokes that aren't hurtful, she shows how much of an adrenaline addict she can be, she shows how unassuming she is about what we do with our lives and glorifies something like working at Taco Whiz, she makes the best argument I've ever seen for a criminal to reform (one of the only times I actually thought she was convincing in that role), she is terrifies a psychopath by using her manic and wilside, she has desperate moments of loneliness, and what she says when Artemis dies is just perfect.

If anybody ever tells you they don't like Wonder Woman stories, this might not be the run to show them since these stories don't really define her saga.

But if anybody tells you they don't like Diana herself, this has to be the run to show them. This has all of her dimensions well fleshed out.

[HestiasHearth]

The Deodato art was just...ugh. It was hard getting into the stories while trying to ignore that awful art with all the buttfloss bottoms and horrid anatomy. Sorry (not sorry), just my opinion.

[Fuzzy Mittens]

I adore it and I count it as one of my favorite runs, though I struggle to actually recommend the run to a number of people.
I struggle to explain the appeal for myself, as it has a number of elements which id generally loathe. Such as an attack on Paradise Island which kills half the population. (Which became practically a trope that writers just kept churning out over and over and over.)
The run basically turning Hippolyta into a borderline villain which haunts her for the rest of post crisis.
The artwork which could get oh so very bad at points.

But despite that, this was one of the strongest depictions of Wonder Woman ever in terms of personality and moral code. We see her acting more like a person and less like the "But...But shes Wonder Woman! How do I portray her? Shes perfect. Should I...Have her cry? Would that make her seem like a person?" interpretations or the "Hoe! I brave warrior of the Amazons am thou opponent ye rider of that horseless carriage of metal! Face me cretin!" which border on caricature.
We see her interact with people as people. We see her relate to people and empathize with them. This is not a Wonder Woman who is a goddess, this is a Wonder Woman whose down to Earth and understands the human condition. She is a person.

And on top of that she just...Gives people a chance for want of a better word. She doesn't give up on the likes of Cheetah or even Donna Milton. She is willing to give criminals a chance and her openness and generosity is really inspiring.
Not that she will hesitate ONE MOMENT to punish a fool who thinks this translates to her being weak, easy manipulate, and the sort to fold like cardboard if you kidnap someone important to her.

This run had the best rebuttal to the whole 'We can just attack the heroes family and loved ones once we find out their secret identity!' argument.

[Sebastianne]

I love it/him, and I agree with all the good things that were said here, I love Julianna Sazia, the White Magician, Diana's voice.
Between number 63 and 89 borders on perfection. Lost in Space is one of my favorite stories of all time, I also love the story of Donna Milton and Ares Buchanan, not to mention the Eclipso special.
The last 10 issues seem to have been written by another writer, I think that in The Contest and Fall of an Amazon something is lost from the magic of WML (editorial mandate?), those mistakes are repeated in Requiem, but he brought us Artemis, my Favorite character from the Wonderverse.

I think the only bad thing I have to say about his run is the art that never accompanied those beautiful scripts, not having modernized classic villains, and a lot of what happened during those last 10 issues.

It is the run that I have read the most from Diana, and I still enjoy it a lot.

[Sebastianne]

The Deodato art was just...ugh. It was hard getting into the stories while trying to ignore that awful art with all the buttfloss bottoms and horrid anatomy. Sorry (not sorry), just my opinion.

But they are only 12 numbers out of 39 plus a special and an annual.
I loved it at the time, I couldn't believe it, those impossible bodies captivated me, it was also in tune with the X-Men, which was the best drawn comic of the time. Of course it didn't age well and today, 30 years later, one realizes how bad that was.

[DisneyBoy]

I don't know what he was thinking with that retcon of Hippolyta and Heracles.

That's putting it mildly.

This run had the best rebuttal to the whole 'We can just attack the heroes family and loved ones once we find out their secret identity!' argument.

What was it?

[Fuzzy Mittens]

What was it?

1. If you push a hero to far they might not kill you, but theres nothing saying they cant bust your knee caps, shatter your legs, and destroy your house.
2. That a superhero community being what it is, even if you did escalate and actually succeed in killing the hero, the only outcome would be bringing the rest of the superhero community down on your head.

[kcekada]

The Deodato art was just...ugh. It was hard getting into the stories while trying to ignore that awful art with all the buttfloss bottoms and horrid anatomy. Sorry (not sorry), just my opinion.

I loved his artwork despite that thongs and overlong legs. It was exciting (after some okay to lousy artwork preceding it -- remember that issue by Massengil -- I think it's infamous for how bad it was? I also didn't love the biker shorts -- and a red jacket may have made it look a little more Wonder Woman. The stories were just off the rail at this point -- to the degree where it was becoming farce. But there was a fresh vibe to it. I remember my secretary looking at one of the trades -- and loving Artemis (she didn't care about the thongs either).

Is it a high point in WW history? No. But if was a fun run -- despite some glaring flaws. I did like the Brian Bolland covers, but he's also the guy who designed the biker shorts outfits -- so you get the good and the bad. I also though the White Magician was an interesting villain early on -- before the Deodato era where everything got batshitcrazy. But I still remember getting that first issue with Deodato on art -- and loving it.

[kcekada]

But they are only 12 numbers out of 39 plus a special and an annual.
I loved it at the time, I couldn't believe it, those impossible bodies captivated me, it was also in tune with the X-Men, which was the best drawn comic of the time. Of course it didn't age well and today, 30 years later, one realizes how bad that was.

I think the inking is was I liked, but will admit to being a sucker for those Jim Lee type poses of the 90s. Deodato improved a great deal when he was working on Avengers, but the inking still made the characters pop in WW (I think it was a group of artists -- not just him doing the book). But looking back at that era -- you see that many of those artists were not great storytellers. They were good at posing characters in cover shots -- but not good at drawing them as people.

[WonderScott]

My cakes hurt just thinking about all the thongs he made the superheroines wear.