Should the MCU Keep Doctor Doom's Roma (Gypsy) Heritage?

[grilledcheesing]

Basically what it says on the tin. When I first got into the character, I assumed it was a given that fans would want the movies to adapt ol' Vic's backstory faithfully, including his ethnic persecution at the hands of the Latverian government on account of his Romani identity. However, spending long hours lurking on various forums revealed a surprising number of people to me who dislike this aspect of the character's mythos and want the movies to tweak it. Here are some of the arguments I've seen both for and against keeping the character's backstory:

Against:
- Having a POC villain against four white heroes is a bad look
- They only made him a "gypsy" in the first place because he could do magic, which is racist in and of itself
- The depiction of Eastern Europeans as bigoted pseudo-Nazis against the virtuous, innocent Romani ethnic group is an offensive, unfair, inaccurate, and skewed
portrayal of a very complex (and almost exclusively European) issue that likely can't/won't be able to be explored within the limited runtime of an American Marvel blockbuster
- It's never been that important to the character, as he never engages with/in Romani culture as an adult, is never shown speaking the language or engaging with the community and their issues, and is rarely drawn with typical Romani features
- To portray Eastern European Romani culture accurately would have to fundamentally change how Victor is raised, as actual Balkan gypsy culture is wildly different (and not necessarily in flattering ways) than its extremely Westernized, romanticized, outdated, and inaccurate portrayal in the comics
- Fans only cling to his Romani heritage because it makes them feel better about stanning a murderous dictator

For:
- It's representation for a marginalized group
- It's been a part of his backstory since the 1960s, so why change it?
- Marvel needs to "make up for" whitewashing the Maximoff twins (who are Romani in the comics); doing it again to Victor would just be rubbing salt in the wound
- His identity is an integral part of who he is; i.e., erasing his Romani background fundamentally changes the character
- It adds an important element of sympathy to an otherwise unsympathetic character (e.g., murderous petty spiteful autocrat)
- It's an opportunity to educate audiences about the issues Romani people face in real life and call attention to their history and current situation (or just educate them on the existence of Romani people in the first place)

Personally, I'm of the opinion that so as long as he faces some sort of oppression for being a member of some sort of lower class (whether that class be racial/ethnic, economic (extremely poor, in other words), or even spiritual/religious (for example, his mother practicing witchcraft in extremely Orthodox Christian Eastern Europe)), then it does the job in setting up his insecurities and overcompensating need for power and control in adulthood. Thus, while I think it's perfectly fine if they choose to keep Doom Romani (while putting in the effort to make it an accurate and fair depiction, of course), I don't think it's strictly necessary for the character to work. Thoughts?

[Mister Mets]

There are some important considerations.

He may be one of the most significant Romani characters in fiction, so it would be weird to change that element of the character.

[Alan2099]

- The depiction of Eastern Europeans as bigoted pseudo-Nazis against the virtuous, innocent Romani ethnic group is an offensive, unfair, inaccurate, and skewed
portrayal of a very complex (and almost exclusively European) issue that likely can't/won't be able to be explored within the limited runtime of an American Marvel blockbuster

- To portray Eastern European Romani culture accurately would have to fundamentally change how Victor is raised, as actual Balkan gypsy culture is wildly different (and not necessarily in flattering ways) than its extremely Westernized, romanticized, outdated, and inaccurate portrayal in the comics

So ... you're trying to say that what happened in a fictional country isn't actually accurate?

[grilledcheesing]

That's someone else's argument, not mine. I was just repeating some common complaints I've heard. (Should I edit the post to make that clearer?)

And yes, I've seen Eastern European people get genuinely angry about how Marvel portrays that area of the world, particularly the idea that they're all bigots dressed in lederhosen mindlessly hating on the local Roma populations. I guess I can't necessarily argue that that complaint isn't valid; after all, if writers put so much effort into worldbuilding Wakanda and Atlantis/Talokan while taking care to represent the parent culture(s) they were based on, then I guess it makes sense that fans would want that same sort of respect for Latveria. Including a more nuanced portrait of ethnic relations between the natives and the Romani, without unduly demonizing either.

[grilledcheesing]

There are some important considerations.

He may be one of the most significant Romani characters in fiction, so it would be weird to change that element of the character.

I agree with you, and maybe I should edit the parent post to specify that while I don't think it's strictly necessary, I would definitely still PREFER that they kept it.

However, while we're in agreement, I don't think the majority of his fans (or even a majority of writers) remember/acknowledge/care that he's Romani. Most don't even know what "Romani" even means, and probably think that "gypsy" basically amounts to a weird Amish/hippie/homeless/vagabond mashup where they perceive it as a distinct lifestyle you can choose, not an ethnic group with unique genetics, culture, and history.

Like I said, I have zero problem with them keeping his Romani heritage, but the flipside of that is that they actually have to put in the effort and research to portray Romani culture accurately, and in doing so they would have to change many elements of the classic story in order to fit in with what Romani culture in 1970s/80s Yugoslavia actually looked like (which I don't think many hardcore fans would approve of). Otherwise it almost feels like a "have your cake and eat it too" situation, where they essentially just slapped the Romani label on a white man and expect people to treat him as such when the text really hasn't given much indication (outside of a very Americanized fantasy of what Romani life in post-WWII Balkans looked like) that he experiences life in the context of Romani heritage/upbringing, and certainly does not reflect the daily lived experiences/prejudices that real Romani people face.

Not to mention the fact that the MCU had no problem not portraying Wanda and Pietro as Romani...

[Tofali]

That'd make two Romani villains and one reformed that died. If there is no balancing them with outright heroes what's the point?

[Mister Mets]

I agree with you, and maybe I should edit the parent post to specify that while I don't think it's strictly necessary, I would definitely still PREFER that they kept it.

However, while we're in agreement, I don't think the majority of his fans (or even a majority of writers) remember/acknowledge/care that he's Romani. Most don't even know what "Romani" even means, and probably think that "gypsy" basically amounts to a weird Amish/hippie/homeless/vagabond mashup where they perceive it as a distinct lifestyle you can choose, not an ethnic group with unique genetics, culture, and history.

Like I said, I have zero problem with them keeping his Romani heritage, but the flipside of that is that they actually have to put in the effort and research to portray Romani culture accurately, and in doing so they would have to change many elements of the classic story in order to fit in with what Romani culture in 1970s/80s Yugoslavia actually looked like (which I don't think many hardcore fans would approve of). Otherwise it almost feels like a "have your cake and eat it too" situation, where they essentially just slapped the Romani label on a white man and expect people to treat him as such when the text really hasn't given much indication (outside of a very Americanized fantasy of what Romani life in post-WWII Balkans looked like) that he experiences life in the context of Romani heritage/upbringing, and certainly does not reflect the daily lived experiences/prejudices that real Romani people face.

Not to mention the fact that the MCU had no problem not portraying Wanda and Pietro as Romani...

Given the lack of Romani representation in pop culture, it is very important that it be handled respectfully. I do imagine that they would be able to pull that off.

[Mister Mets]

That'd make two Romani villains and one reformed that died. If there is no balancing them with outright heroes what's the point?

This is a good point, but it leads to an easy solution of introducing Romani in Latveria who oppose what Doom is doing.

[MichaelC]

Romani are really Indian immigrants, which is to say ethnically south Asian. Doom is rarely portrayed as looking Romani/south Asian. Usually he is portrayed as looking like Richards with devil eyebrows.

[Iron Maiden]

I also think that for the comics at least the backstory should remain as it is. But I don't expect the MCU to keep it. Disney/Marvel will probably steer clear of dealing issues of ethnicity. The latest "who will play Doom in the MCU" rumor (and there have been many of those) is that Marvel has offered the role to Josh Harnett (Oppenheimer, 30 Days of Night). But we probably won't see Doom in the movies for some time due to the fact that production has pretty much ground to a halt due to labor issues with the Screen Actors Guild and the Writers Guild. Hollywood has a long history of handling ethnicity in strange ways. If you are an old movie fan, you recall the 1939 film version of the Hunchback of Notre Dame has Irish born redhead Maureen O'Hara playing the gypsy Esmeralda.

Interestingly enough both Doom's creators Jack Kirby and Stan Lee were both Jewish. Stan's parents were immigrants from Romania and Jack Kirby's parents were from Austria.

[GenericUsername]

Basically what it says on the tin. When I first got into the character, I assumed it was a given that fans would want the movies to adapt ol' Vic's backstory faithfully, including his ethnic persecution at the hands of the Latverian government on account of his Romani identity. However, spending long hours lurking on various forums revealed a surprising number of people to me who dislike this aspect of the character's mythos and want the movies to tweak it. Here are some of the arguments I've seen both for and against keeping the character's backstory:

Against:
- Having a POC villain against four white heroes is a bad look
- They only made him a "gypsy" in the first place because he could do magic, which is racist in and of itself
- The depiction of Eastern Europeans as bigoted pseudo-Nazis against the virtuous, innocent Romani ethnic group is an offensive, unfair, inaccurate, and skewed
portrayal of a very complex (and almost exclusively European) issue that likely can't/won't be able to be explored within the limited runtime of an American Marvel blockbuster
- It's never been that important to the character, as he never engages with/in Romani culture as an adult, is never shown speaking the language or engaging with the community and their issues, and is rarely drawn with typical Romani features
- To portray Eastern European Romani culture accurately would have to fundamentally change how Victor is raised, as actual Balkan gypsy culture is wildly different (and not necessarily in flattering ways) than its extremely Westernized, romanticized, outdated, and inaccurate portrayal in the comics
- Fans only cling to his Romani heritage because it makes them feel better about stanning a murderous dictator

For:
- It's representation for a marginalized group
- It's been a part of his backstory since the 1960s, so why change it?
- Marvel needs to "make up for" whitewashing the Maximoff twins (who are Romani in the comics); doing it again to Victor would just be rubbing salt in the wound
- His identity is an integral part of who he is; i.e., erasing his Romani background fundamentally changes the character
- It adds an important element of sympathy to an otherwise unsympathetic character (e.g., murderous petty spiteful autocrat)
- It's an opportunity to educate audiences about the issues Romani people face in real life and call attention to their history and current situation (or just educate them on the existence of Romani people in the first place)

Personally, I'm of the opinion that so as long as he faces some sort of oppression for being a member of some sort of lower class (whether that class be racial/ethnic, economic (extremely poor, in other words), or even spiritual/religious (for example, his mother practicing witchcraft in extremely Orthodox Christian Eastern Europe)), then it does the job in setting up his insecurities and overcompensating need for power and control in adulthood. Thus, while I think it's perfectly fine if they choose to keep Doom Romani (while putting in the effort to make it an accurate and fair depiction, of course), I don't think it's strictly necessary for the character to work. Thoughts?

It should keep it, but I doubt they'll cast someone Romani as him and I doubt they'll do well by it.

[GenericUsername]

Romani are really Indian immigrants, which is to say ethnically south Asian. Doom is rarely portrayed as looking Romani/south Asian. Usually he is portrayed as looking like Richards with devil eyebrows.

This has to do with comics artists not doing Romani depictions very well. There isn't a single Romani character in comics depicted accurately that way.

[Midnight_v]

NOT that this isn't a NON-ISSUE, but...

The MCU routinely changes characters race, enthicity, and skin tone.

I think its best for them to simply cast whoever they can find that can play the role convincingly.

They had a miserable time with the FF, so looking to KANG and really even nick fury and even tilda swinson
and how excellent these characters are without making such considerations.

Just DON'T make doom like they've done before

[KurtW95]

I've known people who are half Romani and half white and you'd never know that they weren't fully white. Magda Lensherr was also Sinti. Who are largely white passing. There is no reason why the children of an Ashkenazi Jew and a Sinti Roma wouldn't look like Olsen, Taylor-Johnson, or Peters. And Victor should be wearing a mask most of the time anyway. And it could even be a different actor or an AI image if his face is only seen in photographs or portraits. So, as long as you can believe that he's half Romani and half white, it shouldn't matter.

[Triniking1234]

This is a pointless discussion since it's obvious Doom's Romani heritage isn't important to his character.

The 90s cartoon has his mother absent and he was motivated by his father's love for science plus his father isn't depicted as partaking in common Gypsy practices.