Why can't Marvel make Betty Brant Peter's Love Interest Once Again?

[Daibhidh]

Stan butting in on Ditko's creation again. I very much doubt he had anything resembling that dialog in mind when drawing that panel.

There are I know cases where Lee's dialogue doesn't match up with what we see the artist doing, but I see no reason to think this is one of them. You can say Ditko's drawn Betty to look older than a teenager, but Peter in that panel doesn't look like a teenager either to me. Ditko's clearly the prime mover behind the Peter / Betty romance and I don't think he'd have intended Betty to be significantly older than Peter. (It has been suggested that the Peter/ Betty relationship was wish fulfilment on Ditko's part, based on his crush on Flo Steinberg, Lee's secretary: Steinberg was twelve years younger than Ditko.)

[Alan2099]

I'm a fanatic now, OK, nice knowing you.

Nice knowing you as well. Welcome to the forums.

[Prime]

yeah clear as day after reading that issue

Interesting but isn’t Betty pregnant now ?

[Jman27]

Interesting but isn’t Betty pregnant now ?

she already had the baby his name is Winston

[Kurt Busiek]

I always read Betty as not only being a bit older than Peter, but a little more mature than him when he started out. She was sort of forced to grow up faster due to her family circumstances. But that could just be me.

No, it seems pretty logical.

Peter's in the process of growing up, earning money in a job to take care of his aunt while going to school. Betty had to abandon school to make money to take care of her mother (and her brother's blackmail payments). They've both had to grow up more than Flash or Liz, but Betty's a little farther down that road than Peter.

kdb

[Triniking1234]

I think the main reasons Betty isn't a love interest for Peter is that there isn't enough fan demand for such a relationship.

I imagine that most fans gravitate towards MJ, Black Cat and/or Gwen over Betty. Or they don't care about Spidey-romances or want to see something newer in that aspect.

Betty just doesn't have the appeal to get the love interest role.

I'd expect most Spidey to gravitate towards those girls cuz they were set in stone when they came into the franchise.

But why did readers not rally for Betty (and maybe Liz) when the relationship was fresh? Maybe it was too problematic (not talking about the age difference).

[Spider-Tiger]

I'd expect most Spidey to gravitate towards those girls cuz they were set in stone when they came into the franchise.

But why did readers not rally for Betty (and maybe Liz) when the relationship was fresh? Maybe it was too problematic (not talking about the age difference).

I think some of it probably came down to the artwork. Designing attractive heroines really wasn't one of Ditko's strengths. The Romita girls would have seemed far more exciting to a young audience.

[Daibhidh]

IIRC Betty was aware deep down that Peter was Spider-man and couldn't cope with the stress. Not being able to cope with Peter being Spider-man is a tough knock to any love interest's popularity, in that the readership's interests are directly opposed to those of characters who may motivate Peter to stop being Spider-man.

[Kurt Busiek]

But why did readers not rally for Betty (and maybe Liz) when the relationship was fresh?

You mean, like in 1964?

There were certainly fans who wanted Peter to stick with Betty, or to date Liz more. But they didn't have an internet, they just wrote letters.

And when Pete moved on, they still liked the book, so they went with it. Fans in the 60s didn't feel like their wishes should be catered to -- they hoped things would go the way they wanted, but they didn't think of themselves as an influential bloc that could affect sales. And indeed, it wasn't until the later 1980s that fans (as opposed to casual newsstand readers) became a large enough portion of the audience to carry some weight.

Back in the 70s, for instance, "fan-favorite" meant "low-selling book that the fans who write in to the publishers really like," not "hit series."

kdb

[comictimes]

IIRC Betty was aware deep down that Peter was Spider-man and couldn't cope with the stress.

This was an interesting plot that wasn't pursued any further once Ditko left.

it wasn't until the later 1980s that fans (as opposed to casual newsstand readers) became a large enough portion of the audience to carry some weight.

Because of diminishing sales?

[godisawesome]

You mean, like in 1964?

There were certainly fans who wanted Peter to stick with Betty, or to date Liz more. But they didn't have an internet, they just wrote letters.

And when Pete moved on, they still liked the book, so they went with it. Fans in the 60s didn't feel like their wishes should be catered to -- they hoped things would go the way they wanted, but they didn't think of themselves as an influential bloc that could affect sales. And indeed, it wasn't until the later 1980s that fans (as opposed to casual newsstand readers) became a large enough portion of the audience to carry some weight.

Back in the 70s, for instance, "fan-favorite" meant "low-selling book that the fans who write in to the publishers really like," not "hit series."

kdb

This was an interesting plot that wasn't pursued any further once Ditko left.


Because of diminishing sales?

The 80s was when the "returning"/"long term" comic book reader became a clear demographic, corresponding to the rise in "graphic novels" deliberately targeting older but still mainstream audience members, and with the mainstream comics themselves transitioning more towards "young adult" audiences than "kids."

Now, something like that had been happening for a while, but I think it first became clear what was happening in the 80s. It's sort of the general "Bronze Age Evolution" of comics that Spider-Man had helped kick off - you saw mildly older readers who would be heavily invested because of "landmark" stories like The Night Gwen Stacy Died, or even later on "Kraven's Last Hunt."

Still, the majority of the readership was still likely casuals, who wouldn't really disappear until the Comic Book Market Crash of the 1990s, after comics had moved into niche shops, become victims of speculation buying, and then just crashed through a mix of too-high prices and too-much subpar product shrinking the entire industry.

Still... since "kids" tend to like more "mature" stuff than expected, and since mainstream audiences *do* recognize and reward quality even if they come for the formula, the more mature characterization and conflict writing that comics had evolved into *after* Betty ceased to be the love interest probably had the most impact; MJ and Felicia were simply more developed than Betty was, and thus more interesting characters to read about.

[comictimes]

That's some nice exposition on the 80-90's market, but I don't agree on the characters development thing, because I don't think those were that much better developed, or because Betty wasn't. In fact, compared to ANY other female Marvel character of the 60's, she was second to none, and even many from the 70's fell short in that regard.

[Kurt Busiek]

Because of diminishing sales?

No. Sales were going up, overall.

But newsstand sales were collapsing (in great part due to consolidation and shenanigans among newsstand distributors, which were affecting all magazines, and in part due to the ongoing decline in newsstand outlets since at least the 1950s), while direct-market sales were increasing.

At the beginning of the 80s, direct-market sales were less than 15% of Marvel's overall comics sales; at the end of the 80s they were around 85%.

So direct-market buyers -- who tend to be more committed ongoing readers -- increased. As did comics sold only to direct-market outlets.

kdb

[marhawkman]

The 80s was when the "returning"/"long term" comic book reader became a clear demographic, corresponding to the rise in "graphic novels" deliberately targeting older but still mainstream audience members, and with the mainstream comics themselves transitioning more towards "young adult" audiences than "kids."

Now, something like that had been happening for a while, but I think it first became clear what was happening in the 80s. It's sort of the general "Bronze Age Evolution" of comics that Spider-Man had helped kick off - you saw mildly older readers who would be heavily invested because of "landmark" stories like The Night Gwen Stacy Died, or even later on "Kraven's Last Hunt."

Still, the majority of the readership was still likely casuals, who wouldn't really disappear until the Comic Book Market Crash of the 1990s, after comics had moved into niche shops, become victims of speculation buying, and then just crashed through a mix of too-high prices and too-much subpar product shrinking the entire industry.

Still... since "kids" tend to like more "mature" stuff than expected, and since mainstream audiences *do* recognize and reward quality even if they come for the formula, the more mature characterization and conflict writing that comics had evolved into *after* Betty ceased to be the love interest probably had the most impact; MJ and Felicia were simply more developed than Betty was, and thus more interesting characters to read about.

To be fair, the easiest way to get a child interested in reading something is to tell them they're not allowed to

[ARkadelphia]

To be fair, the easiest way to get a child interested in reading something is to tell them they're not allowed to

Also see: PMRC’s effect on album sales