Would it have been better if some established super villain depowered almost all the mutants?

[The Overlord]

It seems like a lot of people are very critical of Scarlet Witch for depowering all the mutants during M-Day. But Scarlet Witch was traditionally a hero and I think she has a lot of supporters due to her traditional heroic portrayal, despite some of her more recent actions. So I wonder if it would have been better if some established super villain (could be an X-Men villain or any other Marvel super villain) was responsible for most mutants getting depowered instead. No one would complain if a villain does something really villainous, would they? That villain wouldn't be a member of the Avengers, so no one would be upset that were treated as heroes after such an act. It seems like it would have been a better path to take.

[just another user]

She did.

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[The Overlord]

She did.
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Except Scarlet Witch had not been a villain for a long period of time from the mid 60s to 2004, she was a hero for most of that time. So why not have a villain we are not supposed to like depower the mutants, instead of tainting a character we are supposed to like? There are villains who have been pure villains from their introduction till now, it seems like having one of them do it is more in character, trying to turn Scarlet Witch into an irredeemable villain.

[AcesX1X]

to be quite honest even when she was playing at being a hero for a while, she was never that likeable. she was often very rude and argumentative, and had an irrational temper.

[gurkle]

In answer to your question, comic writers and editors are understandably leery about letting bad guys win. It seems anticlimactic. When good guys do terrible things, it goes against expectations - even though it's a huge cliché - and is probably more dramatically effective with readers. Yes, thanks to the retcon of Doom being responsible, it now reads as a scene where the bad guy's plan succeeds, but it doesn't spoil the effectiveness of the moment for the people who read it at the time.

Most writers tend to care more about big dramatic moments than the integrity of characters - because they're writing for the now, they might not even be writing these characters a few years later. So I doubt anybody thought much about what this would do to the Scarlet Witch, who at that time was considered just one of those boring old Avengers who'd been in the book too long, like the Vision and Hawkeye. Probably if they thought about it at all they thought this would make her more interesting, not realizing until later that they'd effectively made it impossible for her to appear in comics. Even then they probably thought it was a sacrifice worth making to have that dramatic moment.

After all, writers and editors know they can make heroes do the most horrible things and then retcon it all away as mind-control or Doctor Doom or the Yellow Fear Monster. Whereas when villains do horrible things, it's like, so what? They're villains, that's what you expect.

to be quite honest even when she was playing at being a hero for a while, she was never that likeable. she was often very rude and argumentative, and had an irrational temper.

"Never that likeable" is up to the individual reader, but in terms of being rude, argumentative and having a temper, she was pretty much always portrayed as one of the less assholish Avengers. (An exception would be part of Steve Englehart's run when she was experiencing a phase of pro-mutant anger against humans, but even then she never reached Hawkeye or Tony or Cap's level of dickery.)

[ExodusCloak]

It makes the story more interesting that cray cray depowered everyone. You cannot sweep that under the rug. It raised Wanda's stock in the MU tremendously. She's notorious in the X-verse.

[AcesX1X]

she is the avengers definitive villain.

[Mr. Brightside]

It makes the story more interesting that cray cray depowered everyone. You cannot sweep that under the rug. It raised Wanda's stock in the MU tremendously. She's notorious in the X-verse.

This. That whole HoM episode and her Ka-Razyness makes her so much more interesting, among other things XD

[The Overlord]

In answer to your question, comic writers and editors are understandably leery about letting bad guys win. It seems anticlimactic. When good guys do terrible things, it goes against expectations - even though it's a huge cliché - and is probably more dramatically effective with readers. Yes, thanks to the retcon of Doom being responsible, it now reads as a scene where the bad guy's plan succeeds, but it doesn't spoil the effectiveness of the moment for the people who read it at the time.

Most writers tend to care more about big dramatic moments than the integrity of characters - because they're writing for the now, they might not even be writing these characters a few years later. So I doubt anybody thought much about what this would do to the Scarlet Witch, who at that time was considered just one of those boring old Avengers who'd been in the book too long, like the Vision and Hawkeye. Probably if they thought about it at all they thought this would make her more interesting, not realizing until later that they'd effectively made it impossible for her to appear in comics. Even then they probably thought it was a sacrifice worth making to have that dramatic moment.

After all, writers and editors know they can make heroes do the most horrible things and then retcon it all away as mind-control or Doctor Doom or the Yellow Fear Monster. Whereas when villains do horrible things, it's like, so what? They're villains, that's what you expect.

Except if the villain wins sometimes, it makes the villain seem more threatening, why should care about the villains if there is no chance they can win in any way, why not give them a victory once and a while to up to their threat level.

If the heroes are just constantly hurting each other, the heroes come off as A-holes and the villains seem irrelevant because the heroes are doing all the bad things, that seems like a lose lose situation.

I think I like the Marvel heroes in the movies better in the comics better, because they are allowed to do heroic things and truly villainous things are left to the villains. Heroes should not be made unsympathetic for the sake of some plot twist.

"Never that likeable" is up to the individual reader, but in terms of being rude, argumentative and having a temper, she was pretty much always portrayed as one of the less assholish Avengers. (An exception would be part of Steve Englehart's run when she was experiencing a phase of pro-mutant anger against humans, but even then she never reached Hawkeye or Tony or Cap's level of dickery.)

That is my point, it seems like they are dragging a perfectly nice character's name through the mud, just for some plot point.

This. That whole HoM episode and her Ka-Razyness makes her so much more interesting, among other things XD

1. Okay then, but then people who wouldn't want anything changed to the M-Day story really can't complain about her then. You can't have your cake and eat it too, if you are fine with the M-Day story, then you can't complain about its fallout. Why should fans of the heroic Scarlet Witch have suddenly hate her just because Bendis decided to make her a plot device to cull the mutant population?

2. Isn't unfair to the fans who liked Scarlet Witch as a hero to have name dragged through the mud for the sake of some plot point in the X-Universe? I'm not sure you would want your favorite hero turned into an irredeemable villain for the sake of a plot point.

[norj]

The High Evolutionary would have been the perfect villain to de-power the mutants, hell right now he is trying to wipe out all the super-humans on earth.

[ExodusCloak]

1. Okay then, but then people who wouldn't want anything changed to the M-Day story really can't complain about her then. You can't have your cake and eat it too, if you are fine with the M-Day story, then you can't complain about its fallout. Why should fans of the heroic Scarlet Witch have suddenly hate her just because Bendis decided to make her a plot device to cull the mutant population?

This logic makes no sense. You can hate a character but still think that they chose the perfect crazy character to execute the decimation. The people who can be fine with the M-Day story and still hate her actions. You can't have heroes without a villian.

[The Overlord]

This logic makes no sense. You can hate a character but still think that they chose the perfect crazy character to execute the decimation. The people who can be fine with the M-Day story and still hate her actions. You can't have heroes without a villian.

Except isn't somewhat disrespectful of fans who liked Scarlet Witch as a hero, to say it was a good move to make her into a genocidal psychopath as some people seem to think she is on this board and then get upset that some pople are still fans of her and still want her on the Avengers? I think a lot of people are fans of the more traditional heroic Scarlet Witch and don't like the fact her character was thrown under the bus, why should those people have no longer be fans of the character, just because she has been butchered for the last 10 years? Is that a fair expectation? It seems cool to hate on Scarlet Witch on this board, but she is just a character, if she is evil it is because the writers are writing her that way and its naive to expect everyone to be okay with how she is written.

See if some evil villain who has never been heroic did this, everyone would have been fine with that and there would no controversy over it. Instead people still complain about it 10 years later. That is why its a bad idea to throw characters under the bus for some plot twist.

[ExodusCloak]

Except isn't somewhat disrespectful of fans who liked Scarlet Witch as a hero, to say it was a good move to make her into a genocidal psychopath as some people seem to think she is on this board and then get upset that some pople are still fans of her and still want her on the Avengers? I think a lot of people are fans of the more traditional heroic Scarlet Witch and don't like the fact her character was thrown under the bus, why should those people have no longer be fans of the character, just because she has been butchered for the last 10 years? Is that a fair expectation? It seems cool to hate on Scarlet Witch on this board, but she is just a character, if she is evil it is because the writers are writing her that way and its naive to expect everyone to be okay with how she is written.

See if some evil villain who has never been heroic did this, everyone would have been fine with that and there would no controversy over it. Instead people still complain about it 10 years later. That is why its a bad idea to throw characters under the bus for some plot twist.

Wanda is better as a genocidal maniac. She moved from unstable and dependent to crazy. I think you're looking at this through a narrow lens without looking that perhaps it's disrespectful to tell other people what they can and cannot feel. I think you're making generalisations and the thing that Wanda will probably always be known for Decimation. It was an iconic moment. It's etched into everyones brains. And unfortunately for fans of pre-HoM Wanda it will never, ever, ever go away. It's like Hank Pym slapping Wasp. It's going to be there forever.

[Rochedalaix]

Wanda is a better character as a villain and if she would have told the X-Men to get over it after the decimation I would have liked her more but as she is now she sucks. Since Marvel didn't want to make her a villain they should have had Legion decimate mutant kind to get back at his father for choosing mutant kind over him.

[Mr. Brightside]

1. Okay then, but then people who wouldn't want anything changed to the M-Day story really can't complain about her then. You can't have your cake and eat it too, if you are fine with the M-Day story, then you can't complain about its fallout. Why should fans of the heroic Scarlet Witch have suddenly hate her just because Bendis decided to make her a plot device to cull the mutant population?

Who says I can't have the bolded? I can totes find her interesting and hate her. She's one of those charcters I feel bad for, but dislike at the same time because she's so bad. You don't have to hate her if you don't want to, you know....

2. Isn't unfair to the fans who liked Scarlet Witch as a hero to have name dragged through the mud for the sake of some plot point in the X-Universe? I'm not sure you would want your favorite hero turned into an irredeemable villain for the sake of a plot point.

Yes, it's unfair. Like it's unfair to make it canon that Cyke choked Emma out in a phoenix rage when he's never been shown to be violent towards her. But as people who don't write the books, you can't do squat. Well, you could, like complain, but at the end of the day, we don't make canon. We can only hope for GOOD retcons (something Wanda is not given) and better characterization.