Bringing Back a Married Spider-Man - The Official Appeal - Mayday and beyond

[Garlador]

We're at a new threshold, so I reason this is time for a new thread, new topic, new focus, and new discussion.

The overwhelming choice for bringing back a pro-marriage alternate universe, per Slott's suggestion, was seminal classic "Spider-Girl" per the polls. These were the same results I viewed on Twitter/X and other platforms.

So with that choice made, where do we go next?

I received hundreds of responses and messages with questions, suggestions, and offers to aid and support this campaign, wherever it may end up.

Here is the current status of the official appeal.



Please use this thread for discussion, suggestions, further organization, and input. There are a lot of unknowns we need addressed, questions that need answers, and proper guarantees from those that can actually initiate change at Marvel on a creative and editorial level, otherwise it's simply hot air.

I'm fully convinced from the responses that fans and readers would support this and push for this. We're ready, but we can't make any of this happen on blind faith alone.

"Because YOU demanded it!" Marvel used to say. The demand is here. Will Marvel listen?

Let's find out.

[Lairston]

Really nice work on the image.

Another question: Is part of the proposal going to be to get Tom Defalco and Ron F(i can't remember his last name) to be on the book since I think they did all the previous May Day books?

[hobnob]

"Because YOU demanded it!" Marvel used to say. The demand is here. Will Marvel listen?

Let's find out.

If Spider-Girl Vol 2 happens, I will buy it. Frankly, I think that it's a great opportunity for a Long Halloween style graphic novel with the resolution being the Mephisto storyline teased by Spencer, but Marvel doesn't go in for that kind of thing, which is very sad IMO.

I'm still annoyed that this feels like I'm been fobbed off. I don't want the marriage back iN sOmE fOrM, I want Peter and MJ back together in 616 so Prime Peter Parker isn't a sad sack who's miserable with a broken soul.

[Garlador]

Really nice work on the image.

Another question: Is part of the proposal going to be to get Tom Defalco and Ron F(i can't remember his last name) to be on the book since I think they did all the previous May Day books?

While getting DeFalco back isn’t part of the proposal, I can’t think of anyone better equipped. It’s practically their baby. Their track record speaks for itself.

[WebLurker]

To be perfectly candid, I think the cons listed r.e. using the Spider-Girl series as a rallying point are pretty damning so far as it being useful for the movement (e.g. it's not really a marriage book so much as a book about Spider-Man's kid that happens to depict Peter and MJ as a married couple and Marvel may just chalk it up to people wanting more Mayday, not fans wanting the marriage back). If that's what everyone wants though, the moral of the story is that we need to be careful how we frame everything, so that the movement does not become a "bring back Mayday" one. IMHO, we're going to need to workshop this.

Forget who I mentioned this before, but I think we're going to need a name for the group before we're given a derisive one that sticks (like how the "Bring Back the SnyderVerse" people got dubbed the "Snyder Cult"/"Snyder Bots"). It would be useful for shorthand, could customize hashtags to keep posts linked, and, as related above, could help keep Mayday from taking over the movement. It would also give us a degree of legitimacy in being able to disavow toxic users ("we don't support that kind of behavior and self-police; anyone harassing people is doing it on their own and our group neither condones nor supports that kind of behavior").

Related to having a group name, I think we're going to want a website, email account, and whatever social media accounts we want to use in the group's name; the website will give us a central hub to post information about us and whatever resources will be useful for participants. Having a group social media account will make it easier to spread info (can announce upcoming events, people can repost stuff, and we can use to post other tidbits to stay relevant during dry spells).

That will mean that we'll need volunteers in the movement to run the accounts (whether it be one coordinator or multiple) and ways to share passwords if and when the time comes for someone else to take over. I'm certainly willing to help get stuff rolling and would be happy to discuss the finer details of what we'd need. IMHO, Gmail and Wordpress are what we want for a group email and a web hosting service (they have quality templates that don't require extensive HTML/CSS knowledge to maintain).

[Garlador]

I'm still annoyed that this feels like I'm been fobbed off. I don't want the marriage back iN sOmE fOrM, I want Peter and MJ back together in 616 so Prime Peter Parker isn't a sad sack who's miserable with a broken soul.

This is really the crux of it.

I received dozens of messages saying "we don't want an alternate universe book with the marriage. We want the MAIN book with the marriage".

It's a sentiment I've seen for years.

To be perfectly candid, I think the cons listed r.e. using the Spider-Girl series as a rallying point are pretty damning so far as it being useful for the movement (e.g. it's not really a marriage book so much as a book about Spider-Man's kid that happens to depict Peter and MJ as a married couple and Marvel may just chalk it up to people wanting more Mayday, not fans wanting the marriage back). If that's what everyone wants though, the moral of the story is that we need to be careful how we frame everything, so that the movement does not become a "bring back Mayday" one. IMHO, we're going to need to workshop this.

From experience, this is an uphill battle of controlling the messaging.

Even Slott's input at aiming to curb toxicity is something to wrangle with for ensuring strong messaging. With no offense to Slott, I've been part of multiple advocacy movements where people in charge complain about the "tone" of the messaging more than the messaging itself, and it's always frustrating and disingenuous. It's people with a position of power telling those without it to shape up, act a certain way, and only if we fall in line and act like good little children will they maybe consider even listening to our concerns and issues. Now, this is just a comic book, not social activism, but it's certainly something I've heard time and time again.

If someone has a problem with the "tone" more than the "message", then they never cared about the message in the first place, and it's a discredit to the thousands who poured in with the right "tone" who were easily dismissed and lumped together with those that are angry and upset and expressing it in the only crude manner they can.

Writers often expect a level of professionalism and sophistication from readers that simply doesn't exist, nor should it. Not everyone can write essays or pen editorials clearly expressing their views politely and articulately. One of my earliest lessons was to listen between the anger and cursing and vitriol to understand WHY people would be upset and hone in on that. People don't get angry and curse and throw tantrums without a reason, and sometimes those reasons are worth ignoring, and sometimes those reasons have merit, and understanding why is key to growth.

We shouldn't devolve into "you suck!" blanket statements or threats. We need to say what people are feeling so they don't have to respond purely on an emotional level.

Forget who I mentioned this before, but I think we're going to need a name for the group before we're given a derisive one that sticks (like how the "Bring Back the SnyderVerse" people got dubbed the "Snyder Cult"/"Snyder Bots"). It would be useful for shorthand, could customize hashtags to keep posts linked, and, as related above, could help keep Mayday from taking over the movement. It would also give us a degree of legitimacy in being able to disavow toxic users ("we don't support that kind of behavior and self-police; anyone harassing people is doing it on their own and our group neither condones nor supports that kind of behavior").

Definitely should workshop some sort of name, but a name is only as good as those within it. The Snyder fans aren't all bad, but they lost control of the messaging. HOWEVER, the Snyder Fans also did basically get the SnyderCut made through sheer persistence. There is good and bad with any movement, and ultimately results speak for themselves (even if it didn't go further than that).

Related to having a group name, I think we're going to want a website, email account, and whatever social media accounts we want to use in the group's name; the website will give us a central hub to post information about us and whatever resources will be useful for participants. Having a group social media account will make it easier to spread info (can announce upcoming events, people can repost stuff, and we can use to post other tidbits to stay relevant during dry spells).

That will mean that we'll need volunteers in the movement to run the accounts (whether it be one coordinator or multiple) and ways to share passwords if and when the time comes for someone else to take over. I'm certainly willing to help get stuff rolling and would be happy to discuss the finer details of what we'd need. IMHO, Gmail and Wordpress are what we want for a group email and a web hosting service (they have quality templates that don't require extensive HTML/CSS knowledge to maintain).

I too am open to volunteers. I am admittedly in over my head. I'm not very engaged in social media, or comic books, or even Spider-Man admittedly. I'm a fan, but I'm not Comic Book Guy over here with an encyclopedic knowledge of every issue to exist. Spider-Man isn't even in my top 20 superheroes.

The marriage problem is something I've just seen as a persistent complaint from Spider-Man fans for over a decade now, and it does bother me to a degree too. Delegating tasks to the people with the right skillsets can make a big difference here.

[wleakr]

I too am open to volunteers. I am admittedly in over my head. I'm not very engaged in social media, or comic books, or even Spider-Man admittedly. I'm a fan, but I'm not Comic Book Guy over here with an encyclopedic knowledge of every issue to exist. Spider-Man isn't even in my top 20 superheroes.

The marriage problem is something I've just seen as a persistent complaint from Spider-Man fans for over a decade now, and it does bother me to a degree too. Delegating tasks to the people with the right skillsets can make a big difference here.

The "marraige problem" isn't a complaint from all Spider-man fans.

I would argue it's not even from a majority of fans.

[Malachi]

The "marraige problem" isn't a complaint from all Spider-man fans.

I would argue it's not even from a majority of fans.

He didn't say neither "all" or "majority". For those that don't feel included in this category they are free to not participate.

Spider-girl, Peter and MJ written "classic" or the marriage can certainly be seperate points and not all would consider, or want, a Spider-girl book to adress these. With that said I would support and buy a Spider-girl book. I can write a letter but social media is not my strong point either. I generally avoid Twitter(X), instagram and facebook.

[Mister Mets]

The most successful name for any organization like this was HEAT (Hal's Emerald Advancement Team, part of an ultimately successful effort to get Hal back as the Green Lantern.()

[Yvonmukluk]

I would like to see Spider-Girl get her own book again. I'm actually going to go against the grain slightly though, and say that I don't think DeFalco should write it. Now before you get out your torchs and pitchforks, I think he should still be involved as the editor of the book, but I think letting a younger generation of writers might be the order of the day.

The most successful name for any organization like this was HEAT (Hal's Emerald Advancement Team, part of an ultimately successful effort to get Hal back as the Green Lantern.()

Wasn't it originally known as Hal's Emerald Attack Team? And it wasn't necessarily remembered fondly, at least in some corners of the internet. Plus they had the advantage of Geoff Johns becoming CCO, who even if he wasn't a card carrying member is 100% a Hal stan. And if we're coming at this from the angle of restoring the marriage, it seems like Marvel editorial is very much selecting for people who will get with the OMD program.

[Lairston]

I would like to see Spider-Girl get her own book again. I'm actually going to go against the grain slightly though, and say that I don't think DeFalco should write it. Now before you get out your torchs and pitchforks, I think he should still be involved as the editor of the book, but I think letting a younger generation of writers might be the order of the day.



Wasn't it originally known as Hal's Emerald Attack Team? And it wasn't necessarily remembered fondly, at least in some corners of the internet. Plus they had the advantage of Geoff Johns becoming CCO, who even if he wasn't a card carrying member is 100% a Hal stan. And if we're coming at this from the angle of restoring the marriage, it seems like Marvel editorial is very much selecting for people who will get with the OMD program.

Their website is still up and it says advancement. https://glheat.tripod.com/

[WebLurker]

From experience, this is an uphill battle of controlling the messaging.

Even Slott's input at aiming to curb toxicity is something to wrangle with for ensuring strong messaging. With no offense to Slott, I've been part of multiple advocacy movements where people in charge complain about the "tone" of the messaging more than the messaging itself, and it's always frustrating and disingenuous. It's people with a position of power telling those without it to shape up, act a certain way, and only if we fall in line and act like good little children will they maybe consider even listening to our concerns and issues. Now, this is just a comic book, not social activism, but it's certainly something I've heard time and time again.

If someone has a problem with the "tone" more than the "message", then they never cared about the message in the first place, and it's a discredit to the thousands who poured in with the right "tone" who were easily dismissed and lumped together with those that are angry and upset and expressing it in the only crude manner they can.

Writers often expect a level of professionalism and sophistication from readers that simply doesn't exist, nor should it. Not everyone can write essays or pen editorials clearly expressing their views politely and articulately. One of my earliest lessons was to listen between the anger and cursing and vitriol to understand WHY people would be upset and hone in on that. People don't get angry and curse and throw tantrums without a reason, and sometimes those reasons are worth ignoring, and sometimes those reasons have merit, and understanding why is key to growth.

We shouldn't devolve into "you suck!" blanket statements or threats. We need to say what people are feeling so they don't have to respond purely on an emotional level.

To be perfectly candid, there probably will be people who will just dismiss us as being inherently toxic for asking for something else beyond the current status quo. I think having a codified policy of sorts posted on an "official' website will help (lets members know what the standards are and gives us something to fall back on when blamed for free agents).

There is the unfortunate "can't win either way" with protests; if you let emotion show through the writing, you're unhinged, if you don't, you're easy to ignore.

Definitely should workshop some sort of name...

"Web Warriors" keeps sticking in my head, but it is borrowing a name from the comics, which I don't know if that is or is not what we want.

...but a name is only as good as those within it.

True. Just thinking ahead. Even ignoring being named in contempt, it'll be a lot easier to spread the word if we have our own designation. Hashtags, titles for social media accounts, etc.

The Snyder fans aren't all bad, but they lost control of the messaging. HOWEVER, the Snyder Fans also did basically get the SnyderCut made through sheer persistence. There is good and bad with any movement, and ultimately results speak for themselves (even if it didn't go further than that).

I have a very dim view of the Snyder Fans, to be honest, and I'm one of those people who believes that they had no real impact on getting the Snyder Cut made (as I understood it, the only reason it happened was that WB wanted quick content for [HBO]Max and the pandemic made polishing up a half-finished project the most viable option). However, whether they did or did not make it happen, I'll agree that they are an object lesson in how the narrative can be lost and that social media can be effective in getting a message sent (provided one doesn't cross lines). I'll also concede that they outlasted my estimates of when the movement was going to fall apart, so they did have stamina going for them.

I too am open to volunteers. I am admittedly in over my head. I'm not very engaged in social media, or comic books, or even Spider-Man admittedly. I'm a fan, but I'm not Comic Book Guy over here with an encyclopedic knowledge of every issue to exist. Spider-Man isn't even in my top 20 superheroes.

There's no wrong way to be a fan. IMHO, once a name is picked, I think planning out a website would be the first step once the plan for the group's goals and initial plans are set. Once that's uploaded and done, signing up for social media accounts would be pretty quick and the only thing we'd need to have on the initial posts is a "hey, we're here; see our site to learn what we're about" message. Beyond that, social media would be mostly engaging with other netizens and spreading the word about announcements (e.g. letter-writing, new op-eds, whatever) and maybe some fun milestones (like noting the original release date of relevant comics and movies, holiday posts, etc.).

Is anyone else interested in workshopping a proposal for a website? (e.g. content to include on it, organization, etc.)

The marriage problem is something I've just seen as a persistent complaint from Spider-Man fans for over a decade now, and it does bother me to a degree too. Delegating tasks to the people with the right skillsets can make a big difference here.

Sounds like we might need some kind structure to organize things and make sure we get everyone running.

And if we're coming at this from the angle of restoring the marriage, it seems like Marvel editorial is very much selecting for people who will get with the OMD program.

I have wondered if that's what Slott meant by it cannot come back ever; only anti-marriage people are brought onboard so the mindset will be passed on long after the G1 people are long gone.

[hobnob]

The "marraige problem" isn't a complaint from all Spider-man fans.

I would argue it's not even from a majority of fans.

The contemporary idea of the ‘silent majority’ is a political slogan (which came out of the Republicans IIRC). It’s not a ‘wisdom of the crowds’-style phenomenon. I don’t accept that the pro-marriage crowd is a few hundred noisy people.

And with ‘shipping’ becoming a common trend among younger consumers, that behaviour will only get bigger, not smaller. Just look at the internet noise around Attack on Titan and Erehisu/Erikasa etc. This is here to stay. Spider-Man will never be free of this debate.

[Kaitou D. Kid]

From experience, this is an uphill battle of controlling the messaging.

Even Slott's input at aiming to curb toxicity is something to wrangle with for ensuring strong messaging. With no offense to Slott, I've been part of multiple advocacy movements where people in charge complain about the "tone" of the messaging more than the messaging itself, and it's always frustrating and disingenuous. It's people with a position of power telling those without it to shape up, act a certain way, and only if we fall in line and act like good little children will they maybe consider even listening to our concerns and issues. Now, this is just a comic book, not social activism, but it's certainly something I've heard time and time again.

If someone has a problem with the "tone" more than the "message", then they never cared about the message in the first place, and it's a discredit to the thousands who poured in with the right "tone" who were easily dismissed and lumped together with those that are angry and upset and expressing it in the only crude manner they can.

Writers often expect a level of professionalism and sophistication from readers that simply doesn't exist, nor should it. Not everyone can write essays or pen editorials clearly expressing their views politely and articulately. One of my earliest lessons was to listen between the anger and cursing and vitriol to understand WHY people would be upset and hone in on that. People don't get angry and curse and throw tantrums without a reason, and sometimes those reasons are worth ignoring, and sometimes those reasons have merit, and understanding why is key to growth.

We shouldn't devolve into "you suck!" blanket statements or threats. We need to say what people are feeling so they don't have to respond purely on an emotional level.

This.

With all due respect to Dan Slott, his entire advice essentially sums up to "protest but not like that".

No one in 2023 believes "protest but not like that" rhethoric. Certainly not the younger generations of Millennials and Gen Z's that dislike OMD. Your average Millennial or Gen Z fan already has experience with this talking point.

It's the same with how some keep insisting that "vote with your wallet" is a thing. Look, putting aside the fact we know ASM sold better pre-OMD... even if we didn't know that, your average Millennial and Gen Z has plenty of life experience already to know that "voting with your wallet" isn't a thing in today's economy. Five guys at Marvel are essentially trying to get us to believe in something that the entire PR industry has failed to convince a generation into believing. And that's just not going to happen.

[Garlador]

This.

With all due respect to Dan Slott, his entire advice essentially sums up to "protest but not like that".

No one in 2023 believes "protest but not like that" rhethoric. Certainly not the younger generations of Millennials and Gen Z's that dislike OMD. Your average Millennial or Gen Z fan already has experience with this talking point.

It's the same with how some keep insisting that "vote with your wallet" is a thing. Look, putting aside the fact we know ASM sold better pre-OMD... even if we didn't know that, your average Millennial and Gen Z has plenty of life experience already to know that "voting with your wallet" isn't a thing in today's economy. Five guys at Marvel are essentially trying to get us to believe in something that the entire PR industry has failed to convince a generation into believing. And that's just not going to happen.

Let me be clear, I (and this movement) do not condone or excuse legitimately toxic behavior, nor insults or threats. This campaign absolutely does not stand by that, ground zero.

And Slott’s request to tone down toxicity and unify behind a POSITIVE message is not without great advantages. Negativity and harmful rhetoric absolutely creates unwanted noise that dilutes a good message. “You can catch more flies with honey than vinegar”. Being nice and polite is often more effective than being rude or unpleasant.

For my part, I rarely curse, I’m even-tempered, and I CAN articulate my points rationally and reasonably. I approach this endeavor with that characteristic.

But I’m also someone who knows the value and merits of understanding toxicity and negativity in that it comes from a SOURCE. Marvel editorial already knows “One More Day” remains one of the most hated events in comic book history; they view it as “bad medicine”, a necessary evil. Surely they must know that every profanity-laden, emotionally-charged, poorly written message to them about that story and its harmful repercussions has a legitimate reason for such a response.

We are not in an age of measured, emotionally-detached movements. This is a generation of reviewing-bombing media, “Angry” YouTubers and critics, social disobedience, internet memes, and fan-fueled backlash brigades. The younger generation especially is not patient or soft-spoken in their criticisms.

My hope is that we can say this in a way that IS positive and productive. “You put into words how we feel”.