Bringing Back a Married Spider-Man - The Official Appeal - Mayday and beyond

[Jman27]

I can’t speak for anybody else, but I just don’t think Wells has been able to pull it off on this book. The jump from gritty and somber to coloring activity book takes some talent that he evidently lacks.

isnt that mainly due to the art like if you go from issue 26 to the end of 30 its a slow transition from gritty to somber. Then again not sure how much build up is needed in a run like this in changing tone I have no issue with it

[fjmac]

isnt that mainly due to the art like if you go from issue 26 to the end of 30 its a slow transition from gritty to somber. Then again not sure how much build up is needed in a run like this in changing tone I have no issue with it

I think I'm not making myself clear. Think of this: last panel of #26, Kamala dead in Peter's arms, everybody mourning, gritty Romita art. Next issue: cartoony McGuinness art, the goofiest looking Otto EVER, turned into a mustache twirling abomination, using an army of cute little robots and with dialogue that reads like straight out of the 60's. I'm not saying it can't be done, I'm saying Wells didn't pull it off. He tried to go from edgelordy to goofy every time McGuinness was on the book (900, Dark Web, the Octopus thing) and he never made it work. If you go from blood soaked, smoke stained, dusty JRJR art to clean cartoony McGuinness art you are probably trying to use the contrast for effect, but I don't think it accomplished anything during this run.

Also, those tonal shifts result specially jarring if you have unresolved plot lines in the background, more so if those are as abrasive as the whole MJ debacle in this run. When you have something as dissonant as that going on, you can't park it for 5 months tell a story about cute little demons wreaking havoc across Manhattan or for 3 months to tell a story about Otto and his army of silly ass green goo little robots. It's like Lost season 3 when they left Jack, Kate and many of the main characters on the other side of the Island dealing with the Others and started to make episode after episode focusing on the nobody characters.

[Garlador]

Admittedly, “art” isn’t one of my major complaints. I know that’s strange in what’s ostensibly a visual medium, but I value story and character above the art most of the time. Too many awful and terribly-written books have good art, but I’ve read a lot of comics with subpar art but incredible writing. Ideally, both artists and writers at their best would be great, but if I had to prioritize I’d want stronger, better writing nearly every time.

[wleakr]

What is the next step(s) in this appeal?

Is this appeal being pushed in other places on the internet (or anywhere else) besides CBR?

[Garlador]

What is the next step(s) in this appeal?

Is this appeal being pushed in other places on the internet (or anywhere else) besides CBR?

Currently, the next steps are getting organized. I have offers for creating website, graphics, coming up with a campaign name, and organizing structured email and letter writing campaigns, with promotion across here, Discord, Twitter/X, Facebook, and Reddit.

I’ve been a bit absent this week as I’ve been away on a business trip (at the airport currently), so finding folks to delegate these tasks to and get everyone speaking and planning will go a long way. I’ll present suggestions I’ve received soon.

I personally would like to set deadlines and dates for a staggered writing campaign focusing on sending Marvel offices themed responses directly addressing the most obvious and vocalized criticisms - issues with their stance on the marriage, with how Peter is handled in general, with how this correlates and compares to other books and heroes, with how it compares to other portrayals in games and movies, with how it compares to his own history, etc, and flood them with feedback and whip other readers and fans into a frenzy to join in. Creating template messages to share and email would be fast and efficient.

[Lee]

I personally would like to set deadlines and dates for a staggered writing campaign focusing on sending Marvel offices themed responses directly addressing the most obvious and vocalized criticisms - issues with their stance on the marriage, with how Peter is handled in general, with how this correlates and compares to other books and heroes, with how it compares to other portrayals in games and movies, with how it compares to his own history, etc, and flood them with feedback and whip other readers and fans into a frenzy to join in. Creating template messages to share and email would be fast and efficient.

That's a very bad idea if you want to run a positive campaign. Trying to destroy Marvel with facts and logic won't get you anywhere, it'll just make the whole thing come across as whiny and annoying.

If your goal is for Marvel to publish a Spider-Girl comic, then focus on that and nothing else.

Complaining about Amazing Spider-Man won't help that. Complaining about Marvel staff and freelancers won't help that. Complaining about fans with differing opinions won't help that.

The original Spider-Girl fans, back when the book was still running, realised that from the offset. The organisers of those campaigns had a staunch rule against badmouthing Marvel staff and other Marvel comics. They were laser-focused and spreading the good word about Spider-Girl and buying the comics and merch.

[Garlador]

That's a very bad idea if you want to run a positive campaign. Trying to destroy Marvel with facts and logic won't get you anywhere, it'll just make the whole thing come across as whiny and annoying.

If your goal is for Marvel to publish a Spider-Girl comic, then focus on that and nothing else.

Complaining about Amazing Spider-Man won't help that. Complaining about Marvel staff and freelancers won't help that. Complaining about fans with differing opinions won't help that.

The original Spider-Girl fans, back when the book was still running, realised that from the offset. The organisers of those campaigns had a staunch rule against badmouthing Marvel staff and other Marvel comics. They were laser-focused and spreading the good word about Spider-Girl and buying the comics and merch.

You misunderstand.

There are two stages of this; rallying people who ARE upset and reaching THEM (readers, fans, casual audiences) with facts and logic (we NEED to create NUMBERS), and THEN channeling that unification into a positive message to send to Marvel.

Marvel Editorial and Writers have already frequently dismissed readers and fans who put out legitimate concerns as "whiny" and "annoying", no matter how well-constructed and well-formulated their arguments are. There are thousands of logical reasons why One More Day shouldn't have happened, and a thousand logical reasons why it should be undone. Spider-Man Editorial cares little for "logical" and "facts" in this discussion; that's a losing stance to take.

It has to simply be a metric of PR. Of volume. If we are NOT disruptive, then we are not doing a good job. If we are NOT an annoyance, then we are easily ignored. "The squeaky wheel gets the oil" and we need to be squeaky. Polite, positive, and reasonable, but deafening. We need coverage from other sites on what we're doing and when we're doing it. We need editorials reaching out to us for engagement. That's why I want to focus on specific target dates to swamp them with responses and stagger it out for continued awareness. Nick Lowe once stated that they get "more letters supporting One More Day than against it" and, firstly, I don't believe that for a second, but if he was telling the truth, that means readers should send him enough counter examples to break that argument (ironically, he was fending off another One More Day complaint in the Letters column this month...).

Continuing, the end-goal is NOT to publish Spider-Girl. That's also a losing argument. Spider-Girl's renewal would be great, but it would do absolutely nothing to instigate change in the main book without an incredibly solidified and structured messaging behind it. I've already stated that Spider-Girl co-existed with a married Spider-Man book and ran for over 100 issues, and that did nothing to stop Joe Quesada from purging the marriage. We will champion Spider-Girl as the book of choice simply because that is what Dan Slott suggested we do, following his advice, for the express purpose of an end-result that we must and will make clear to them. Spider-Girl is the means to an end. It is NOT the end.

I was part of the Spider-Girl movement. I was there. I lived it. I promoted it. We badmouthed Marvel often, but not to their faces. I fully expect and welcome any honest feedback from anyone here and elsewhere to let me know how disappointed and upset they are with the current comic status quo. Swear to your heart's content to me. Demand that Lowe and Wells get fired. I don't CARE so long as it's kept internal.

When the time comes to send the petition, it will be structured and positive, promoting what we love and advocating for what we esteem, not the noise of anger and toxicity that clouds most conversations that Marvel can't look past.

I know what I'm doing.

[Lee]

What Dan suggested was:

Step 1: Start a positive campaign to get Marvel to publish an AU title where Peter and MJ are married.

Step 2: Do everything you can to get that title to sell through the roof.

It's not about being the squeakiest wheel, it's not about PR, it's not about being disruptive, it's about showing Marvel that married Spider-Man comics = $$$ by actually buying the damn comics this time.

What you're suggesting is not that, and most of this thread has been the same complaining about Amazing Spider-Man that got nobody anywhere the past 15 years.

[fjmac]

What Dan suggested was:

Step 1: Start a positive campaign to get Marvel to publish an AU title where Peter and MJ are married.

Step 2: Do everything you can to get that title to sell through the roof.

It's not about being the squeakiest wheel, it's not about PR, it's not about being disruptive, it's about showing Marvel that married Spider-Man comics = $$$ by actually buying the damn comics this time.

What you're suggesting is not that, and most of this thread has been the same complaining about Amazing Spider-Man that got nobody anywhere the past 15 years.

Except that nobody wants an AU. That was Slott's way of deviating the discussion.

[Lee]

Except that nobody wants an AU. That was Slott's way of deviating the discussion.

No, he was giving very sensible, very obvious advice. Stop villainising comic writers by ascribing motives. It's childish and it won't get you what you want.

If you really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really want comics where Spider-Man and Mary Jane are married, but you absolutely refuse to buy any that are alternate universes, then you're out of luck.

If you want to show you're serious, then support every product where Peter and MJ are married, especially in comics.

If it makes Marvel big money, they will make more.

[Spider-Tiger]

Realistically speaking, I think campaigning for an AU title should be treated as just that -- campaigning for an AU title. Cebulski has said that the return of the marriage is not their preference for the main book atm, and I don't think any campaigning for Spider-girl or RYV is going to change that. But I think they'd be open to an AU and an ongoing AU is certainly better than nothing.

[WebLurker]

No, he was giving very sensible, very obvious advice. Stop villainising comic writers by ascribing motives. It's childish and it won't get you what you want.

Thing is, if you want to get OMD reversed, it's still not a complete blueprint, since the suggestion is only about getting an AU revived. Basically, we're in a position of trying to retrofit something to serve a purpose is wasn't really intended to.

If you really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really want comics where Spider-Man and Mary Jane are married, but you absolutely refuse to buy any that are alternate universes, then you're out of luck.

If you want to show you're serious, then support every product where Peter and MJ are married, especially in comics.

If it makes Marvel big money, they will make more.

I wonder if a boycott is a way to go.

[Lee]

Thing is, if you want to get OMD reversed, it's still not a complete blueprint, since the suggestion is only about getting an AU revived. Basically, we're in a position of trying to retrofit something to serve a purpose is wasn't really intended to.

The best way to change Marvel's mind about Spider-Man's marriage is to make married Spider-Man comics sell through the roof every time they publish them. Is it 100% guaranteed to work? No, nothing is 100% guaranteed. But if you're hardcore enough, you'll try. What I can 100% guarantee is that it'll be more effective than posting online. Worst case scenario is that you get the kind of Spider-Man comics you say you enjoy, but they just happen to be out of continuity with Amazing Spider-Man (like all the movies, like all the cartoons, like all the video games, like Ultimate Spider-Man).

I wonder if a boycott is a way to go.

Boycott what?

If you're buying comics you hate and don't want to support, then you absolutely should stop buying them.

But trying to convince other people that the comic they like sucks actually and they should stop buying it won't work.

[Dan Slott]

I don't really have a comment here. Just saw that "Lee" was posting.
I've read online that somehow you are my "alt" that I use to post on CBR... a place I already post as... well... myself.
Just wanted to see up close what one of your posts was like.
Wait a sec... "Join Date April 2014" and "3,495 posts".
Wow. If you were an alt account, it's amazing that "I" would've somehow kept this up for-- (*does the math*)-- NINE YEARS.
Ah. The internet. Where even the silliest things get low rent conspiracy theories.

[Garlador]

The best way to change Marvel's mind about Spider-Man's marriage is to make married Spider-Man comics sell through the roof every time they publish them. Is it 100% guaranteed to work? No, nothing is 100% guaranteed. But if you're hardcore enough, you'll try. What I can 100% guarantee is that it'll be more effective than posting online. Worst case scenario is that you get the kind of Spider-Man comics you say you enjoy, but they just happen to be out of continuity with Amazing Spider-Man (like all the movies, like all the cartoons, like all the video games, like Ultimate Spider-Man).

I've already addressed this before, but while there is SOME merit to this, this is a flawed approach outlined earlier because

1) Spider-Man marriage comics already sold strongly, were supported for consistently for over 20 years and through 800+ issues, and books like Renew Your Vows initially sold gangbusters beyond the traditional book at the start.
2) Multiple individuals at Marvel stated that "sales" were not the reason the marriage went away. It was - and remains - a personal creative preference.
3) Supporting an AU is not the end-goal, but it is what Dan suggested, and if it can bring back a marriage-positive book that fans once liked, that is a minor victory. But it is NOT the aim of this campaign. It is a means to an end.

Boycott what?

If you're buying comics you hate and don't want to support, then you absolutely should stop buying them.

You would be quite surprised at how many people hate the book but still buy it. I speak with these individuals often. Some are dropping the book. I dropped the book. But MANY readers buy out of habit, or because they believe that Marvel will turn things around if they stick with it long enough, waiting for a payoff that hasn't happened yet. Many say they hate the story, but love the art. Many say they hate the story, but their love of Spider-Man is just stronger than their dislike, so they buy it anyway. Many are completionists that can't bear the idea of their collection missing books. Many of them have a "team Spider-Man, win or lose" mindset that they'll support the book even if it sinks lower, because the character is too special to them. Many hate-read and LIKE to have something to engage with other readers about. Others fear that if they drop the book, they'll miss out on something important for a future story. And, of course, many just don't care or mind the story enough to get upset over it. I know I'm closer to this group than most.

But trying to convince other people that the comic they like sucks actually and they should stop buying it won't work.

And some do like it, but creative work isn't a binary black and white.

There's a lot of stuff I like that I still advocate for improving. You can like something and still see the flaws, still see missed opportunities, still see a better path forward. Not everyone has to be a "hater" to desire a better product. There's always areas of improvement, for anything.

So having a sort of campaign that showcases the best elements of a marriage-era Spider-Man, to show what was there and what is now lacking, can absolutely change minds or put into words the feelings that some people have but struggled to express.

I'm fearful of pushing for a boycott of ASM, largely because this would need to be a movement that has legitimate traction and mainstream recognition before ever asking a large number of people to make that switch. If we get the numbers, I would ask for it to send a message, but I've been a part of both successful and failed boycotts where you truly need everyone on board to make meaningful change, and even then there is no guarantee those in charge will listen if they think it'll all just blow over.

Slott's proposal is a start. A guideline. I'm not carving it in stone, and I've heard hundreds of differing views and opinions on how this should be approached. There is no magic bullet solution here, but I want to make the effort and see where we end up. I envision this with a wider, less-narrow scope than Slott suggested because ultimately this is a game of numbers. "A vocal minority" is an easy label to throw at even the most logical, well-reasoned movement, but raw metrics are much harder to ignore, and so Step 1 - "Unifying the fanbase" and "Mass email and letter campaign" is priority 1 above getting to Step 2's request for an AU book.