Raven Appreciation Thread 2023

[Thirteen]

Raven in Titans #6 variant cover by Jen Bartel.

Vinyl collecting Raven!

[Incognito]

It’s a possibility certainly. It’s only a matter of time before DC wants a 13-14 year old Raven in the comics again to synergize with stuff going on elsewhere. It would thread a kind of needle and allow her story to move instead of being stuck in a cycle.

I would rather have them pull a Jason Todd and introduce a new Raven while the original calls herself 'White Raven' and remain an adult, I don't want Raven to regress as a teenager again same with Beast Boy. Since they are not either the original members of the Titans, a former love interest of Nightwing, or a character that DC wants to give a mega-push they suffered the most by being stuck in Titans Purgatory.

[jmc247]

In terms of Raven's upcoming stories, I sense Taylor is trying to make Beast Boy and Raven which was made popular for reasons frankly other than the comics popular among comic fans. We will see how that goes.

[wonder39]

Raven in Titans #6 variant cover by Jen Bartel.

Raven? All i see is Black Alice. Or Bluebird.

The sad state od Raven these days.....

[jmc247]

Raven? All i see is Black Alice. Or Bluebird.

The sad state od Raven these days.....

Sometimes Black Alice shows up. Sometimes Jinx.

[wonder39]

Sometimes Black Alice shows up. Sometimes Jinx.

Hell, that's not even Jinx...lol ( yeah yeah, animated, I get it)

[jmc247]

Hell, that's not even Jinx...lol ( yeah yeah, animated, I get it)

Mavis from Hotel Transylvania? Though who knows she is supposedly missing a part of herself. Perhaps it fits into the plot somehow.



Not Mavis





Link

[marhawkman]

Early Raven being based on Persis Khambatta makes a lot of sense TBH.

[Tzigone]

OG Raven was more proactive. She is the one who formed the team. Removing her proactive side and deaging her into this vulnerable character who was constantly mind controlled and needs to be saved has been detrimental to her character. Some of the blame also lies with Wolfman as he did a few too many stories involving evil mind controlled Raven. Raven needs her own niche that is not just another story about her being pursued or controlled by Trigon.

Definitely this - love proactive Raven. And her niche needs to not be about Trigon, IMO. Obviously, he parentage is a part of her and her backstory, but she shouldn't be defined by her relationship to him. I don't want every major plot of hers to revolve around Trigon (or even the more generic demon heritage). Zatanna suffered a similar fate with her major storylines about either her father or mother, and it gets tiresome (someone mentioned that as a element of preferring her 1980s costume since it wasn't based on what either her parents wore, and that's stuck with me since). She's an adult now (or should be) and everything shouldn't be about her dad or what inherited from him. Let's have her branch out a bit, and don't keep him the focal point of her existence.

[jmc247]

Definitely this - love proactive Raven. And her niche needs to not be about Trigon, IMO. Obviously, he parentage is a part of her and her backstory, but she shouldn't be defined by her relationship to him. I don't want every major plot of hers to revolve around Trigon (or even the more generic demon heritage). Zatanna suffered a similar fate with her major storylines about either her father or mother, and it gets tiresome (someone mentioned that as a element of preferring her 1980s costume since it wasn't based on what either her parents wore, and that's stuck with me since). She's an adult now (or should be) and everything shouldn't be about her dad or what inherited from him. Let's have her branch out a bit, and don't keep him the focal point of her existence.

Trigon played a large role in all her classic stories even if he wasn’t actually there, because he was said to be always there hiding in the folds of her Soul-Self.



Hense why he was pictured hiding behind Raven’s Soul-Self in a lot of art of that era.

He hasn’t really played a large role in her storytelling for many years. What did he do in the last Nightwing arc actually? But, DC has themselves a bit of a problem. He is popular meaning can move merchandise and that can’t be said of many characters. But, most of that is due to versions of the character that aren’t the comic version.

Classic Raven and Trigon were not two seperate characters. Today they should be and have been for quite awhile detached from how they were back then, but I sense DC doesn’t know how to keep using Trigon or what really Raven should do other then soap with Beast Boy and then have her demon unleashed.

[Tzigone]

Classic Raven and Trigon were not two seperate characters.

I don't really agree with that, but can see the perception. Indeed, I don't even actually like the second Trigon arc (brought on by the change in art style) in the Wolfman-Perez era. It was the sort of thing I didn't mind the first time I read it, but now disliked because it set the stage for a lot of re-treading of ground that we'd do a lot of later. In hindsight, I'd have preferred Trigon one and done and never heard from or exerting influence again after his first defeat. Of course, the real take-away might be that even in the pre-COIE era, there was significant change in the perception of characters over time. Like, for another example, I feel the Tales of NTT background for Vic (with his parents actions) doesn't mesh with the story told the first time around. But that's just me, I know others feel differently.

[jmc247]

I don't really agree with that, but can see the perception. Indeed, I don't even actually like the second Trigon arc (brought on by the change in art style) in the Wolfman-Perez era. It was the sort of thing I didn't mind the first time I read it, but now disliked because it indicated a re-treading of ground that we'd do a lot of later. In hindsight, I'd have preferred Trigon one and done and never heard from or discussed again after his first defeat. Of course, the real message might be that even in the pre-COIE era, there was significant change in the perception of characters over time. Like, for another example, I feel the Tales of NTT background for Vic (with his parents actions) doesn't mesh with the story told the first time around. But that's just me, I know others feel differently.

Classic Trigon was treated as the bad side of Raven always lurking inside her waiting to come out.



He saw her basically as a part or extension of himself and she also couldn’t get rid of him inside her. The animated series based comics kept the same concept.



That shifted over time to her not nice side being her own demon. When she talked to Mr. Smile demon in Nightwing it was a question of if she trusts her own demon not Trigon.

[Triniking1234]

Raven in Titans #6 variant cover by Jen Bartel.

It's a good piece but she looks like the villainess from Dan Slott's Iron Man run.

[Tzigone]

Classic Trigon was treated as the bad side of Raven always lurking inside her waiting to come out.

I simply don't agree with that. Not in the earliest stories - that happened later in the Wolfman-Perez run. At least, that's my perception. The panel you are posting is from issue #31, after he was brought back. I'm talking about the earlier stories (which I why I say things changed). Indeed, I find that particular conception rather incompatible with the earliest story where she takes action against him without internal struggle at all. And sacrifices herself to him/tries to find the "spark of decency" in him. If he was there lurking and waiting to come out, then it would have happened then, or at least she would have felt conflicted (at she did later when the storyline you are referencing happened). This was not, to me, an immediate part of her character, but added a couple years later. Now, that's not long in the history of a comic book character that has been around a long time, but I do regard it as change, as he absolutely was not always part of her. Yes, she inherited DNA from him, but that's just like every child and parent, and does not make them not two separate beings, at least in the early issues as I read them.

EDIT: I'd also say early Raven was markedly more emotional/less repressed.

[jmc247]

I simply don't agree with that. Not in the earliest stories - that happened later in the Wolfman-Perez run. At least, that's my perception. The panel you are posting is from issue #31, after he was brought back. I'm talking about the earlier stories (which I why I say things changed). Indeed, I find that particular conception rather incompatible with the earliest story where she takes action against him without internal struggle at all. And sacrifices herself to him/tries to find the "spark of decency" in him. If he was there lurking and waiting to come out, then it would have happened then, or at least she would have felt conflicted (at she did later when the storyline you are referencing happened). This was not, to me, an immediate part of her character, but added a couple years later. Now, that's not long in the history of a comic book character that has been around a long time, but I do regard it as change, as he absolutely was not always part of her. Yes, she inherited DNA from him, but that's just like every child and parent, and does not make them not two separate beings, at least in the early issues as I read them.

I am not going to deny changes in direction might have occurred. Maybe after a few issues Wolfman watched the Exorcist and everything clicked, but I am saying the classic stories did bounce around with the idea her Soul-Self was made from Trigon or that his essence exists inside it.



They moved away from that concept years ago as I said into her other half being her own demon. Though, I do think Raven's storytelling has been stuck in a hole for a long time.