How do you prefer your Cyborg?

[Riv86672]

No, no, no. He has to be trapped in his low-tech body that was written according to what was presumed advanced in the 80’s. He needs to continue to be the outcast, Frankenstein’s monster that is somehow (according to some posters here) a role model for the disabled audience.

Every major DC character can be upgraded in line with what their abilities are able to do, but a character based on the ever-evolving and advancing technology of DC must stay the same.

Vic must be reset to his original appearance and powerset. If he’s not disfigured, questioning his humanity and struggling with daddy issues, how will the “fans” know who he is?!?!? Got to keep them comfortable.

……

^^^See? This guy gets it.

[Customizer]

No, no, no. He has to be trapped in his low-tech body that was written according to what was presumed advanced in the 80’s. He needs to continue to be the outcast, Frankenstein’s monster that is somehow (according to some posters here) a role model for the disabled audience.

Every major DC character can be upgraded in line with what their abilities are able to do, but a character based on the ever-evolving and advancing technology of DC must stay the same.

Vic must be reset to his original appearance and powerset. If he’s not disfigured, questioning his humanity and struggling with daddy issues, how will the “fans” know who he is?!?!? Got to keep them comfortable.

……

LMAO

I know you're being sarcastic but i *swear* i've come to the conclusion that this is the thinking of some.

It's been showed with citation why the Cyborg character shouldn't be restricted to one look (his DC comic in canon power set supports appearance and limb manipulation regularly) and his visual media representation (Smallville and Young Justice) show him sans face plate and extreme armor.

The rebuttals i've read at their cores seem to be " I just need Cyborg to look f***ed up."

Whaaaatt!? LOL

SWaggy P what.jpg

[marhawkman]

Ah, I can see that. But Vic lost that stuff ages ago didn't he? First with the Technis, then that gold liquid nanite stuff. Pretty sure none of Vic's original hardware was around by the reboot, so the Mother Box was just more of the same in my mind.

See... I get the whole "upgrade" angle. They've kinda played with that all along. But that should be an in-universe progression for the character, not a retcon to the origin story.

[Sutekh]

Ah, I can see that. But Vic lost that stuff ages ago didn't he? First with the Technis, then that gold liquid nanite stuff. Pretty sure none of Vic's original hardware was around by the reboot, so the Mother Box was just more of the same in my mind.

I did not like the liquid gold stuff, at all. But I'm all for there having been an arc where he gets different cyborg tech, and eventually gets to look fully human (which he did as early as Donna Troy's wedding, thanks to Mento's mental powers!).

Maybe have some show up in his visits to the Vegan system, alien upgrades that his father can no longer help him to repair or maintain, and where he takes a firmer hand in his own tech maintenance (which he likes, because it makes him less reliant on his dad, whom he's not a fan of, and I like, because the character's no longer dependent on a smart support team, but has more of a personal controlling hand in how his own darn powers work).

Maybe the Tamaraneans, being the sort who like to show off their bodies, even have a form of transparent metal, allowing him to have a face-plate that slides down and covers his face (and shoulders, etc.), but reveal it at the same time? (Kory and Victor would have different reasons to show skin, but want armor over it. Kory can even claim it was designed to allow their solar absorption powers to work even for their armored warriors, even if we all know that they dress that way for horny teenaged humans reading the book.)

[Riv86672]

LMAO

I know you're being sarcastic but i *swear* i've come to the conclusion that this is the thinking of some.

It's been showed with citation why the Cyborg character shouldn't be restricted to one look (his DC comic in canon power set supports appearance and limb manipulation regularly) and his visual media representation (Smallville and Young Justice) show him sans face plate and extreme armor.

The rebuttals i've read at their cores seem to be " I just need Cyborg to look f***ed up."

Whaaaatt!? LOL

SWaggy P what.jpg

^^^And I find it funny that you, Iconic, and others who want Vic to look “normal” and human” are the ones calling him an “outcast Frankenstein’s monster” and saying he looks “f***ed up“.

Judgmental opinions like that based on someone’s appearance illustrate why Vic should serve as a role model to readers who through no fault of their own aren’t as pretty as some ppl in society think they should be, so thank you all for making my point for me.

Whaaaatt!? LOL

[Ascended]

See... I get the whole "upgrade" angle. They've kinda played with that all along. But that should be an in-universe progression for the character, not a retcon to the origin story.

Totally agree with that. I don't like Vic starting out with the Mother Box, nor do I like him starting out in the League. I'm fine with both things when they're part of his overall arc but they're a crap origin.

Judgmental opinions - based on someone’s appearance illustrate why Vic should serve as a role model to readers

It isn't the best optics, saying Vic should look normal so he's not a freak. Way to throw shade at all the disabled people out there (13% of the US, I googled it). But by the same token, it's not a great look to say that one of the biggest non-legacy PoC's at DC should be the only "broken" one, surrounded by all the perfect white folk.

Seems to me it boils down to whether you see Vic as primarily driven by 'disability' topics or 'race' ones. He's equally both of course, but folks like picking a team these days. /shrug. And while visuals, technological limits, and stereotypes get brought into the discussion all the time, I rarely see anyone discuss Vic, his character, and his arc. That's what should drive the choice; whether it serves Vic's story, themes, and how he responds to it. What makes for the best story? We know that, back in the 80's Vic very much wanted to hide what he was and felt like a freak. We know he's made peace with himself only to start the angst cycle again when a new writer took things 'back to basics.' Should he still feel that way, a decade or more later? Is that the best place to take his character and does it make him better/more interesting? Does it resonate thematically? Some people never move on from their accident, others do. Which makes Vic more compelling at this stage of his life?

As I said, I come down on the side of Vic finally becoming advanced enough to look 'normal' only to realize he no longer cares to. He is what he is, he's fine with that, and if anyone doesn't like how he looks it's their problem. I see that as the proper resolution to the 'man or machine' angst and the logical curve of the character arc; the realization that he's 'man AND machine,' the best of both and inferior to neither. Inner zen achieved. But he should still have the ability to look 'normal' and use it when he wants to be lowkey. Not out of shame but just because he doesn't want the attention that comes with having a famous face. It's the 'why' Vic would disguise himself that matters.

Oh, just to keep it a little on topic. It was asked what, precisely, Vic's powers are and how they work, whether he's a "Transformer" who has bits and pieces shift around to make new tools, or a nanite type of deal that can build what's needed as it's needed. For me, I prefer the "Transformer" approach, but that's got less to do with what Vic's powerset includes and more to do with visual language; I like the idea of parts sliding around to turn his hand into a cannon, rather than the cannon just growing from nothing. It's purely a visual preference here, I don't think it has to impact what he's capable of at all.

As for what Vic can do, specifically....I figure physically, he's got promethium armor plating (not usually full coverage, just the thick white bits usually seen around his face, chest, legs, etc) that can tank hits from kryptonians, mid-tier strength and speed as a baseline (think Aquaman level) with both able to be reinforced/enhanced at need. Flight topping out around mach 3. A wide assortment of sensors long enough to not bother listing, and an equally wide list of weapons, extra armor, and tools Vic can generate. Some tools, weapons, and armor require more processing power than others, and Vic deals with a slight tradeoff where he can only run so many 'big' programs at once before he starts to lag elsewhere. Shifting into heavier armor slows him down, making a giant weapon dims his sensors, stuff like that. Nothing that requires an official list and not something that happens all the time, just keeping in mind that your computer starts to suffer if you try running three AAA games while also streaming seven live shows.

On top of that, technopathy; plugged into the internet 24/7, able to tap into damn near any system connected to it. In this I like Vic's intelligence to drive his ability; technopathy gets him in front of the firewall, maybe makes things a tad easier/more intuitive, but he still has to hack it himself, y'know? Show off that brain of his.

The Mother Box in his chest can do whatever a Mother Box can do. Boom Tubes of course, healing, language translation, system interfacing, etc.

Oh, and while most of his hardware is now alien, with New God tech layered on top of Technis imitating his original earth-based systems, Vic is still largely running earth-based software. He's still using the base programs that Silas wrote, that Vic himself would later upgrade and rewrite.

It's a damn beefy powerset that puts Vic squarely among the world breakers, well above the mid-tier he started in. That's the point, in my mind; technology improves. Plus, not enough cosmic-tier black men in comics, nor enough disabled people on that level. And if Vic is the 'tech god' of DC's pantheon then he should stand beside the other Big Name gods and leaders of the DCU.

[Riv86672]

Seems to me it boils down to whether you see Vic as primarily driven by 'disability' topics or 'race' ones.

^^^See, I don’t see Vic as either one of those.
As a black man myself, who often freaks ppl out when shirtless due to a shitload of war related scars, I don’t need Vic to be driven by either one of those factors (I’ve just been commenting on the opinions of the ppl who’ve brought those factors up).

I just see Vic as a hero.

[Iconic]

Look at all the other DC leading males. Those who are faces of a franchise. Those outside of the Superman & Batman who continue to get seen and spoken fondly of. Notice the difference.

No one wants to continue to READ about constant trauma, self-loathing and body mutilation. It’s not fun! The things that some of you (who really don’t care about the advancement of this character) are asking for serve to only keep him in the background. It’s nothing to build on. Each new writer is going to always go back to the same old beats because he’s never allowed to advance.

A partial mask doesn’t make Cyborg. He could be a known hero who can fully “mask up” when it’s time for action. He could be a power fantasy for any type of person. I’m pretty sure many of these disabled people y’all love to bring up have non-disabled heroes as their favorite, too.

[Ascended]

I just see Vic as a hero.

And you should. We all should see the character and not just what demographic/s he represents. But I've noticed in this debate that it kinda-sorta boils down along that line; not completely and not including everyone, I'm not speaking for everybody here, but very generally speaking the people who want him to look 'normal' appear to want that largely due to racial considerations and the bad optics of Vic's disfigurement next to his attractive (white) peers. The folk who want to keep the visual prosthetics, also in a very general way, seem to want that (partially) because of its positive commentary towards disabled groups.

Obviously there's far more that goes into it, and these aren't the only things people consider with the character. It's just a small detail I've noticed over the years and I might even be imagining it.

And thank you for your service, good sir and/or ma'am. What branch?

[Riv86672]

And you should. We all should see the character and not just what demographic/s he represents. But I've noticed in this debate that it kinda-sorta boils down along that line; not completely and not including everyone, I'm not speaking for everybody here, but very generally speaking the people who want him to look 'normal' appear to want that largely due to racial considerations and the bad optics of Vic's disfigurement next to his attractive (white) peers. The folk who want to keep the visual prosthetics, also in a very general way, seem to want that (partially) because of its positive commentary towards disabled groups.

Obviously there's far more that goes into it, and these aren't the only things people consider with the character. It's just a small detail I've noticed over the years and I might even be imagining it.

And thank you for your service, good sir and/or ma'am. What branch?

^^^Yeah that’s a pretty good summation of the events in this thread.
Hell I’m the one that brought up how he’s a good role model for the disabled (but again, only commenting on what others were saying). In the end, I want Bic to maintain the overt cyborg features to include the faceplate because it’s his look, period.

And, I’m a guy. U.S. Army (retired). Thank YOU.

[Agent Z]

Look at all the other DC leading males. Those who are faces of a franchise. Those outside of the Superman & Batman who continue to get seen and spoken fondly of. Notice the difference.

No one wants to continue to READ about constant trauma, self-loathing and body mutilation. It’s not fun! The things that some of you (who really don’t care about the advancement of this character) are asking for serve to only keep him in the background. It’s nothing to build on. Each new writer is going to always go back to the same old beats because he’s never allowed to advance.

A partial mask doesn’t make Cyborg. He could be a known hero who can fully “mask up” when it’s time for action. He could be a power fantasy for any type of person. I’m pretty sure many of these disabled people y’all love to bring up have non-disabled heroes as their favorite, too.

I feel like this problem would be mitigated by DC giving other black characters the spotlight.

[Agent Z]

LMAO

I know you're being sarcastic but i *swear* i've come to the conclusion that this is the thinking of some.

It's been showed with citation why the Cyborg character shouldn't be restricted to one look (his DC comic in canon power set supports appearance and limb manipulation regularly) and his visual media representation (Smallville and Young Justice) show him sans face plate and extreme armor.

The rebuttals i've read at their cores seem to be " I just need Cyborg to look f***ed up."

Whaaaatt!? LOL

SWaggy P what.jpg

Victor has the faceplate in Young Justice.

[Triniking1234]

Look at all the other DC leading males. Those who are faces of a franchise. Those outside of the Superman & Batman who continue to get seen and spoken fondly of. Notice the difference.

No one wants to continue to READ about constant trauma, self-loathing and body mutilation. It’s not fun! The things that some of you (who really don’t care about the advancement of this character) are asking for serve to only keep him in the background. It’s nothing to build on. Each new writer is going to always go back to the same old beats because he’s never allowed to advance.

A partial mask doesn’t make Cyborg. He could be a known hero who can fully “mask up” when it’s time for action. He could be a power fantasy for any type of person. I’m pretty sure many of these disabled people y’all love to bring up have non-disabled heroes as their favorite, too.

This sounds like the writers' fault and not the character's

[Tzigone]

As I said, I come down on the side of Vic finally becoming advanced enough to look 'normal' only to realize he no longer cares to. He is what he is, he's fine with that, and if anyone doesn't like how he looks it's their problem. I see that as the proper resolution to the 'man or machine' angst and the logical curve of the character arc; the realization that he's 'man AND machine,' the best of both and inferior to neither. Inner zen achieved. But he should still have the ability to look 'normal' and use it when he wants to be lowkey. Not out of shame but just because he doesn't want the attention that comes with having a famous face. It's the 'why' Vic would disguise himself that matters.

I'm kinda mixed on this. I do think he needs to start out with visible (including on his face) prosthesis and have issue with his humanity and be upset with what he feels was done to him. I think if you omit that, keep him gorgeous and have him thrilled about his new reality, you might as well call him "Aaron Williams", give him a new code name, and make him an all-new hero, because he has nothing substantive in common with the character created in 1980 - just race, age (possibly), and sex.

However, I do think he very much needs to get past it. Seriously, his "man or machine" stick was repeated over and over and over (much like Raven's demonic nature - new stories, please!). While it may be realistic for some people to revert to old body issues and mental health issues and so forth even after they seem to have gotten past them, it's really tedious and repetitive in fiction and gets (to me) very annoying. It would be one thing it if was sort of low-key in the background - still sort of depressing, but just part of the character - Ben Grimm has been like that at times or silver age Superboy over Krypton (not my thing), and fans can still enjoy a character like that. But when there are actual story arcs where he stops thinking that way, then he just reverts back (the same way people talk about Booster Gold resetting to factory default on learning to be a hero/chasing money and fame, etc.), it's just irritating and feels like hamster wheel and the stories have no emotional meaning, since he's already learned this lesson several times.

I do kinda disagree with "the best of both and inferior to neither" as I kinda think it reads as though he thinks himself superior. Which, while we as readers may, is not a good attitude for heroes to have about themselves. I do also think it's normal to care when people shy away and you get stared at and so forth. While it may not be empowering messaging, I don't think it's wrong to want to "fit in" in that way. Also, he's young, but not a kid, so much of his sense of self and his body image is already formed before the accident, so he may perceive his pre-accident body as his "correct" body for his entire life. On the other hand, he'll change so much and have so many experiences in his young adulthood, his actual sense of self could be reshaped, too. I could see either way.

But in the end, I don't really care if Vic is a symbol, and I don't care if he becomes more popular - how does it benefit me if a character I like becomes popular if they retcon out or erase all the things that made like them? I care that there are interesting stories (which means they need to ditch his conflict over this one way or another and give him new storylines) and that he, in time, be generally happy. I don't mind angst and depressing things happening to the characters....as long as it ends. So, even for original NTT, the first bout was fine, but then we start over again. Definitely a problem with the on-going nature of comics to me (and Events don't help). But that's really my problem, not something anyone else needs to fix.

Anyway, as I prefer a lower angst zone (or an no more than one year or unhappy stories per every four years or happy ones), a general sense of things getting better.

Like, for Barbara, I generally choose her having a cure for her paralysis (not becoming Batgirl again, though). The technology exists in the universe (and did well before they used it on her), it would please her (which is both realistic for someone paralyzed in their adulthood and it's something she canonically wanted back when I actually read her), and in-universe there is nothing she could do while paralyzed that she couldn't while not paralyzed. She doesn't lose any capabilities. So I can understand feeling the same for Vic - canonically, it pleases him, and (as so described) he has no decrease in capabilities.

But this is a work of fiction, so that has to be be taken into account. A new code name may be desired if he no longer looks like a Cyborg or perceives himself as such (lingo tends to be different now) and that's sometimes a hard sell. Likewise, a whole change in look may mean a lack of familiarity making him more akin to a new character in the launching, and so many fail now. I personally would strongly prefer "battle mode" still look like Cyborg and keeping the same name, but that goes right back to the issue that some don't like of him not being a pretty enough face for the big time.

And, of course, as much as I want my heroes to be happy, in the end they are fictional characters. What the fans find entertaining (and want to spend money on) is more important than the characters' happiness. Indeed fans are often happier the more angst the characters have. As some have commented in the past, a lot of fans seem to want to keep the characters up a tree (several comics I liked being canceled for not being angsty enough and I seem to recall a Spidey writer years ago saying the more problems he had, the higher sales were).

[Alan2099]

No one wants to continue to READ about constant trauma, self-loathing and body mutilation.

I don't know. It's worked pretty good for Wolverine.