How do you prefer your Cyborg?

[Ascended]

With regard to toy manufacturing these things come to mind immediately: cliquish, cut throat , espionage, scams, litigation, I.P. law and sting operations lol.

Shame, but I can't say it's surprising. Honestly, I can't think of many industries that don't play these games to one degree or another, but the kid-focused businesses, like toy makers and book publishers, often seem to be worse than the others (well, NPO guys can be pretty ruthless too I'm told....)

Also watch Power of Grayskull: The Definitive History of He-Man and the Masters of the Universe. It's worth your time.

Must be a documentary on the toy line? From the 80's? Gods, I dunno if I dare!

All of this may be true. I'll also (unfortunately) add that a full battle mask can off set some consumer hesitation rooted in cultural bias (see: Finn from Star Wars and Black Panther).

Yeah, that too.

On the bright side seeing so many toy variants of the Cyborg character kind of shows what many already know here: how inherently marketable Cyborg is

Dude is toyetic as hell. The only downside I can think of with 'Cyborg toy lines' (and again I'm not a toy guy, I know damn little of the topic or industry) is that he doesn't need a lot of vehicles and big ticket item 'extras.' There's no limit to the number of cool toys you can make out of Vic himself, with endless little attachments and such, but he doesn't have a 'Batmobile' you can sell separately, or a Thanos Copter, or whatever else it is that gets sold next to the figures for twice the price.

Yes. It's interesting that you described the last version as a "generic toy" because i think that version of Cyborg seems to be the default marketing version of the character

Hm, I think you're right, that does look a lot like the Rebirth design, now that you mention it. I simply meant not tied to any particular marketing event, like a movie, cartoon, etc., though it does seem like DC uses Rebirth costumes on a lot of their marketing.....

Speaking for myself - No. I didn't hate the Cyborg full battle mask design and have actually promoted something like it in private conversations (on this site no less). However a full battle mask, while 100% practical and logical, makes me think of Iron Man.

I feel the same way. Vic in a full mask just, I dunno, looks like one of those off-brand toys you see sometimes; "The Avonger's Iron Mon!"

A full helmet is fine in a tough fight, agreed, just not as a de-facto design.

No and they shouldn't. Which supports the idea that DC should be making sure the "C" cyborg emblem gets consistent use on it's evergreen product aka "generic Cyborg". But we should also get tweaks and variants if for no other reason than marketing opportunities.

We'll get tweaks and variants just from different formats adapting the base design to work in their particular medium. I'm all in on minor twists and changes, but I don't think you can undervalue the benefit to wedging a singular design into the public consciousness.

I mostly see DC using two main versions of the emblem, when they use it at all. One is the (usually) rectangular logo with the gear-teeth, the other is (usually) the circle with the smooth, thin 'C' (or just the red circle sometimes). I like having options, but I think DC needs to settle on one to use as their prime design. It's fine to use a variant now and then, but I want the market saturation as deep as possible. Regardless of other factors and opinions on the faceplate debate, it still makes a piss poor marketing element compared to a real emblem.

And this is why pages back i said it seems that the argument from some folks seems to boil down to " I just need to see Cyborg effed up." lol.

Hopefully you don't include me in that. But you're right, some folks don't want to see Vic change, they want to see him remain a mid-tier power, tied to the Titans, and doing the same things he was doing back when they first discovered him. Some folks feel the same about Harley Quinn, that she was better as Joker's punching bag/girlfriend. Or Babs in or out of the chair depending on when the fan first discovered her. I don't get it myself, I like it when things develop and change, but perhaps some folks find comfort in a familiar cycle?

And Daredevil / Matt Murdock looks perfectly fine without his mask :|

Oh please. Different kind of disability and you know it. Babs always looked real good too, when she was in the chair, but she was still stuck in that chair.

Oh, some folks were talking about Babs a page or two back I think. Myself, I like her better in the chair. As Batgirl she's just another cape in a over-crowded Cave. As Oracle, she brought a different perspective and angle to things, and was regularly featured far beyond Gotham. She hasn't proven any more capable of carrying a book since her Batgirl return, the quality of the book hasn't generally improved (a couple bright points aside), I don't think we really gained anything with her recovery, but we did lose something. Neither here nor there when it comes to Vic, but that's my two cents.

....maybe this is the root of the problem.

....Priest's JLA? Didn't read that run (was trying to spend less on comics), you're gonna have to give me some context; how is this the root problem?

[skyvolt2000]

Oh please. Different kind of disability and you know it. Babs always looked real good too, when she was in the chair, but she was still stuck in that chair.

Oh, some folks were talking about Babs a page or two back I think. Myself, I like her better in the chair. As Batgirl she's just another cape in a over-crowded Cave. As Oracle, she brought a different perspective and angle to things, and was regularly featured far beyond Gotham. She hasn't proven any more capable of carrying a book since her Batgirl return, the quality of the book hasn't generally improved (a couple bright points aside), I don't think we really gained anything with her recovery, but we did lose something. Neither here nor there when it comes to Vic, but that's my two cents.

Babs runs since returning as Batgirl- before that Cassandra Cain PROVED a Batgirl title could sell and she was longest running Batgirl with a title. She has it in terms of issues in a run but no longer over all.

Volume 4 (New 52) 52 (with Burnside Batgirl a New York Times Best seller until DC ran off that creative team)
Volume 5 50
102 issues. She made issue 50 twice. Cyborg hasn't made issue 25 in a run.

Her back in that suit did nothing for her unlike her in the chair that did not HARP on her being a crippled-she got what many want Cyborg to have consistent development.

I guess I don't understand the reasoning that Cyborg is disabled...For all intents and purposes, he is dead without his cybernetics. Or am I mistaken?

I want to say yes he would be dead but with his origin changed so much-I would suspect at one point he would just be crippled and in a chair with some of his body parts.

With regard to toy manufacturing these things come to mind immediately: cliquish, cut throat , espionage, scams, litigation, I.P. law and sting operations lol.

Well part of the issue is who still owns the molds of the figures once you make them?

I do know Olmec Toys (who gave us Sun-Man) bought the molds for He-Man and GI Joe figures for Sunman and Bronze Bombers line. Funny thing is Olmec got sold to the owners of He-Man in the end in 1994. Which is why you see Sun Man with He-Man now.

Some of those lawsuits come from employees working on them while on the clock at their place of employment. Looking at you BRATZ.

[Ascended]

Babs runs since returning as Batgirl- before that Cassandra Cain PROVED a Batgirl title could sell

Oh a Batgirl title can sell, absolutely. I just don't think Babs herself needs to be in the cowl for it. My preference is Cass but Steph's run is a cult classic and I'm sure either could equal whatever Babs sells, assuming DC doesn't lowball the effort or self-sabotage in the name of nostalgia.

Her back in that suit did nothing for her unlike her in the chair that did not HARP on her being a crippled-she got what many want Cyborg to have consistent development.

Exactly! Imagine if Vic had spent the 90's and 00's getting the same investment and effort Babs got via BoP, the Gotham books, JLA, and all those cameos and appearances she'd make in random titles, from Hawkman to Blue Beetle. He'd be a much richer character with a much deeper mythos.

I want to say yes he would be dead but with his origin changed so much-I would suspect at one point he would just be crippled and in a chair with some of his body parts.

I'm sure there's been at least one or two versions who could survive without the bionics. Nothing comes to mind but there must have been at some point.

[Customizer]

Vic shouldn’t be questioning anything anymore. Man? Machine? No. It’s been answered by John Semper already. He’s the Singularity. The perfect blend of man & technology. That’s it.

He’s not disabled. He’s beyond able! He was in a catastrophic accident and was granted powers beyond imagination by an advanced alien technology.

Why there are those who want to saddle him with being the poster child for the disabled everywhere, I don’t know. Disabled people tend to choose prosthetics that tend to match their skin tone don’t they?

It makes no sense that a guy who can change his appearance at will chooses to look like that. Smallville Cyborg had no issue. When we leave our homes, we usually want to look our best. We wear clothes. Why is this the character who has to wear the baggage of his amazing abilities. Why is flash not a burn victim? Why doesn’t he run around in bandages after being struck by lightning? Answer: Who’d want to read about that??

The truth!

Wayne.jpg

Yeesh.

My referring to Cyborg as "disabled" is really a case of semantics.
One perspective : the guy lost limbs and organs and uses advanced technology to create prosthetics that keep him alive.
Another: the guy lost limbs and organs and uses advanced technology to materialize improved versions of those parts to keep him alive.

At the end of the day Victor Stone is simply physically *better* post accident. If people want to use the word disabled in order for him to fit into a world view i'm cool with that as long as their use of the word doesn't limit him. That's what's problematic - trying to use the accident that ultimately gave him his abilities as the "be all end all" of the character and pigeonholing him into being a representative of only a single group and only able to represent that group in a very narrow way.

The 6 million Dollar Man is/was also "disabled" (strictly speaking). He didn't perform like a disabled guy.

Also.... are we *not* going to talk about that one panel in the latest issue of Cyborg? I know you all know what i'm talking about if you've read it.

[Ascended]

My referring to Cyborg as "disabled" is really a case of semantics.

[B]At the end of the day Victor Stone is simply physically *better* post accident.

I dunno what else to call it. Is there a better word? I mean, there's a dude with prosthetic legs named Browne, I think, who runs the 100M in about 10 seconds. The average man runs it in 15-20. Is Browne not disabled because he can run so fast with fake legs? That's the argument y'all are making, that Vic isn't disabled because the prosthetic is so advanced and lets him do so much. But he's still an amputee. So what other word would you prefer?

[skyvolt2000]

Also.... are we *not* going to talk about that one panel in the latest issue of Cyborg? I know you all know what i'm talking about if you've read it.

Which one?

The one that pretty much ignores the last series?

The one that has a former Cyborg friend make a comment?

The one about using a certain food item to fight?

[Zero Hunter]

I dunno what else to call it. Is there a better word? I mean, there's a dude with prosthetic legs named Browne, I think, who runs the 100M in about 10 seconds. The average man runs it in 15-20. Is Browne not disabled because he can run so fast with fake legs? That's the argument y'all are making, that Vic isn't disabled because the prosthetic is so advanced and lets him do so much. But he's still an amputee. So what other word would you prefer?

Yeah but if you asked that man if he would rather have his real legs back or keep his prosthetics which do you honestly think he would choose? Same with Cyborg he would take back his original healthy body in a second if he could. It is not better it is adapting to the hand your dealt.

[Johnny]

As long as he's badass, doesn't get torn apart or need help to beat the bad guy, it doesn't really bother me what his specific design happens to be. That said, if I had to choose then one with more skin would be more preferable.

[Customizer]

I dunno what else to call it. Is there a better word? I mean, there's a dude with prosthetic legs named Browne, I think, who runs the 100M in about 10 seconds. The average man runs it in 15-20. Is Browne not disabled because he can run so fast with fake legs? That's the argument y'all are making, that Vic isn't disabled because the prosthetic is so advanced and lets him do so much. But he's still an amputee. So what other word would you prefer?

Initially i had typed a response stating you wouldn't get an argument out of me as i 100% agreed with you that , technically, Cyborg was "disabled" by definition but not in practice / application. I was (am) comfortable with other supporters calling Cyborg disabled if that is their perspective because his human organs and limbs *had* been removed and replaced with prostheses. That's a fact. It is what it is.

But then i thought ...perhaps my definition of disabled isn't correct.

A quick definition search and...

dis·a·bled
/dəˈsābəld/
adjective
(of a person) having a physical or mental condition that limits movements, senses, or activities.

Huh.

Hmmm by definition Victor Stone is absolutely not limited in movement, senses or activities. All of those categories and abilities have been heightened to superhero levels. If I really wanted to stretch the definition I might say he had a temporary "mental condition" based upon his previous expression of angst about his humanity and anger towards his father. But again that's a stretch as his solely mental anguish in the past would be considered a .... psychological disorder. He would need to see a psychologist for help with his feelings not a medical doctor for his physical condition.

So by definition ... no...Cyborg isn't disabled.

That's actually surprising to me slightly as i've always been willing to concede that he was but only technically speaking. I was very wrong. He isn't even technically disabled by definition.



Edit: for s**** and giggles i thought i'd check to see if you could claim disability benefits if you had a prosthesis. Surprise (to me)!

Are people with prosthetics considered disabled?

If you have a prosthetic limb that allows you to walk effectively, your application for Social Security disability benefits may be denied. However, you may be eligible for benefits if you can prove that even with a prosthetic limb: You are limited in the amount of time that you can stand or walk.

Damn!

[Iconic]

That’s what I’ve been saying! Vic Stone is not disabled. He doesn’t meet the criteria of the word. He’s more able-bodied than the majority of the DC heroes. He’s honestly the most advanced DC character there is!

And yeah, the whole thing about being able to change most of his body…we’ve always known it. It’s time to consistently show it on the printed page.

[Customizer]

That’s what I’ve been saying! Vic Stone is not disabled. He doesn’t meet the criteria of the word. He’s more able-bodied than the majority of the DC heroes. He’s honestly the most advanced DC character there is!

And yeah, the whole thing about being able to change most of his body…we’ve always known it. It’s time to consistently show it on the printed page.

Yeah you absolutely called it. I already viewed Cyborg as fully capable but not being able to even refer to him as disabled changes past discussions. Once that language is removed from the conversation you have to wonder if people who see him as an avatar for disabled people , and only gravitated to him for that singular reason, would still support the character. Cyborgs not disabled by definition. Do you still love him? If not...WHY?

Regarding his ability to change most of his body , including his face, some could have attempted to write the characters body morphing abilities off as an artifact from a previous run. It was important to me that Morgan Hampton , and future writers, acknowledge this body changing ability so as to eliminate the attempt by some to say Cyborg *can't* do that. Yes. He *can* remove his face plate according to 3 Cyborg writers now. Yes. He *can* alter his body to show synthetic but realistic skin according to Cyborg writers. So stop trying to limit the character to his 1985 look. It's almost friggin 40 years old.

Which one?

The one that pretty much ignores the last series?

The one that has a former Cyborg friend make a comment?

The one about using a certain food item to fight?

Oh i see you're going to make me read the latest issue again LOL.

I was actually speaking of that comment confirming that Cyborg can turn most of his body into anything he wants .


In the meantime please be more specific as i try to catch up Edit: OH! I just noticed the former friend comment. Thank you! I'm not sure why i didn't recognize it the first time i read it but did this time.

Yeah but if you asked that man if he would rather have his real legs back or keep his prosthetics which do you honestly think he would choose? Same with Cyborg he would take back his original healthy body in a second if he could. It is not better it is adapting to the hand your dealt.

In light of the character not being disabled by definition... would he? Flight. Super Strength. Durability. Can look how he wants. Has a sex life. Has the ability to download vast amounts of data in milliseconds.

I don't know.....

I think this is the crux of the issue that people have with how the character has been written in the past. His gift, while obtained through unfortunate circumstances, is still an AMAZING gift that makes him super human. The accident was horrible but as far as i can see it didn't limit him in any way. At least in theory it shouldn't have.

[dkrook]

Yeah you absolutely called it. I already viewed Cyborg as fully capable but not being able to even refer to him as disabled changes past discussions. Once that language is removed from the conversation you have to wonder if people who see him as an avatar for disabled people , and only gravitated to him for that singular reason, would still support the character. Cyborgs not disabled by definition. Do you still love him? If not...WHY?

Regarding his ability to change most of his body , including his face, some could have attempted to write the characters body morphing abilities off as an artifact from a previous run. It was important to me that Morgan Hampton , and future writers, acknowledge this body changing ability so as to eliminate the attempt by some to say Cyborg *can't* do that. Yes. He *can* remove his face plate according to 3 Cyborg writers now. Yes. He *can* alter his body to show synthetic but realistic skin according to Cyborg writers. So stop trying to limit the character to his 1985 look. It's almost friggin 40 years old.



Oh i see you're going to make me read the latest issue again LOL.

I was actually speaking of that comment confirming that Cyborg can turn most of his body into anything he wants .


In the meantime please be more specific as i try to catch up Edit: OH! I just noticed the former friend comment. Thank you! I'm not sure why i didn't recognize it the first time i read it but did this time.



In light of the character not being disabled by definition... would he? Flight. Super Strength. Durability. Can look how he wants. Has a sex life. Has the ability to download vast amounts of data in milliseconds.

I don't know.....

I think this is the crux of the issue that people have with how the character has been written in the past. His gift, while obtained through unfortunate circumstances, is still an AMAZING gift that makes him super human. The accident was horrible but as far as i can see it didn't limit him in any way. At least in theory it shouldn't have.

I agree with yours, and the last few post. This slow drift of wanting to stick him with disabled hero is just the continuation of this notion capping him narratively and our expectations for how high he can go in relation to top tier heroes. In fact like you and others stated, and most of us know. Vic powers and skill set truly should have him with the JL or a powerful solo hero. The only true handicap is the editorial department of DC.

[Ascended]

As long as he's badass, doesn't get torn apart or need help to beat the bad guy, it doesn't really bother me what his specific design happens to be. That said, if I had to choose then one with more skin would be more preferable.

There's the real crux of the matter, coming back again. Doesn't matter what Vic looks like, if he's not respected by DC at the higher levels he'll never reach his potential. Fix that problem and everything else works itself out. And more skin *is* better, he's not a damn robot.

But then i thought ...perhaps my definition of disabled isn't correct.

A quick definition search and...

Huh.

Huh! Interesting! You can't even collect disability, not even be registered as 'disabled,' if your gear is too nice? Curious implications on the legal end. Nice find! Okay, so what's the word then? Is it just amputee?

As far as 'limited in some way' goes, superhero exaggeration means we've always had to downplay/ignore that sort of thing, leaving it just enough presence to be a complication when the writer needs a dash of drama. Just like Daredevil is blind but not really, but sometimes still misses color. Can't be wish fulfillment if the character is actually limited the way they 'should' be. But it's a fascinating wrinkle on where the labels fall.

I agree with yours, and the last few post. This slow drift of wanting to stick him with disabled hero is just the continuation of this notion capping him narratively and our expectations for how high he can go in relation to top tier heroes.

I think that's a gross misrepresentation of what people here are saying. I'm sure somewhere in the thread there's a couple posts that boil down to "I want Vic to stay in 1985" but the vast majority of people here all want the same thing; to see Vic reach his potential and become the big gods damn deal he deserves to be. Folks disagree on a few minor details but we all want to get to the same place. And the conversation has focused on the amputee/disabled aspect, last page or two, but that's just one consideration among many, far from the most important and far from the first specific element we've discussed here.

Said this pages back, but it bears repeating. In whatever you see as proper treatment for Vic, where and how does his character play into it? What's the arc that gets us from where we are to where you wanna be? What's the story behind it? I don't see a lot of talk about Vic himself or why what we consider 'best' for him actually benefits him, and not our particular inclinations.

[skyvolt2000]

Said this pages back, but it bears repeating. In whatever you see as proper treatment for Vic, where and how does his character play into it? What's the arc that gets us from where we are to where you wanna be? What's the story behind it? I don't see a lot of talk about Vic himself or why what we consider 'best' for him actually benefits him, and not our particular inclinations.

I think what needs to be done and stay consistent in non-Cyborg led books like JLA or Titans or guest spots.

What can he do and not do.

If he has FULL access to the world wide web-lets see some examples of it.
Lets see him dig into that dark web and stop January 6th from happening or at least prepare for it.
Let him use his tech to PROVE 2020 Election was not stolen.
Can his technology solve a cold case from 1970?

What is his limit?
How would his tech work in the Amazon where technology doesn't exist?

Since he has cybernetics-what has been done since? In other words how was his cybernetics used to help other folks? Like a certain Batgirl or Batman.

He has a motherbox-

Why can't he and Exxy travel to other worlds on it? Why can't Exxy go on a universe tour singing "Cyborg and me" or taking a set of Earth delegates to another planet for a conference or colonizing a planet?

Do a story were Cyborg, Exxy and some colonist setup shop on a planet (maybe OA in a nob to Green Lantern Mosaic) and show how his technology help set it up.

Address the genitals issue. Because there is a bigger issue that is NOT being addressed.
What reproductive material is he producing?
Can that get a woman pregnant? If so what is that going to look like? Remember he now has a mother box and New God technology. Along with machinery.
What is that going to produce?
Is it going to produce someone like Jog from Suicide Squad (Black Racer is his father) or Northwind (black man and bird woman) from Infinity Inc or something like the Borg or Xenomorph?

If Cyborg MUST have issues with Daddy-let Daddy adopt a kid and do things that he DIDN'T do with Cyborg. Heck adopt Exxy or the former Perry White son-Keith Roberts.
Or lets find out what else Daddy was doing since Cyborg's accident.
Steel just reference a character killed in Steel #2-the parents never got to see the body. What if the science folks examining those remains was Star Labs and Silas tried again to save a life. In another issue Steel had a plot dangle-why not link that to Cyborg since it involved a tech villain and opens the door for a Steel Cyborg team up.

I would go to DC Wiki and just dig up as many Z listers and used villains as I could find. Revise them and give Cyborg a diverse set of foes.

[marhawkman]

There's the real crux of the matter, coming back again. Doesn't matter what Vic looks like, if he's not respected by DC at the higher levels he'll never reach his potential. Fix that problem and everything else works itself out. And more skin *is* better, he's not a damn robot.

This is part of why I liked the old Super Friends take. Vic got respected as a member of the team.

Huh! Interesting! You can't even collect disability, not even be registered as 'disabled,' if your gear is too nice? Curious implications on the legal end. Nice find! Okay, so what's the word then? Is it just amputee?

As far as 'limited in some way' goes, superhero exaggeration means we've always had to downplay/ignore that sort of thing, leaving it just enough presence to be a complication when the writer needs a dash of drama. Just like Daredevil is blind but not really, but sometimes still misses color. Can't be wish fulfillment if the character is actually limited the way they 'should' be. But it's a fascinating wrinkle on where the labels fall.

See there's several ways to define disabled. There's the legal one of filing for disability income. That one needs you to have serious limits on what you can physically do. But that's AFTER taking into account whatever prosthetics you have. A cybernetic arm that works approximately as well or better than a real one means you can use your arm for disability evaluation purposes. The fact you need a prosthetic means you have disability for other purposes(such as buying a prosthetic for example), but you CAN do stuff like a normal person.

I think that's a gross misrepresentation of what people here are saying. I'm sure somewhere in the thread there's a couple posts that boil down to "I want Vic to stay in 1985" but the vast majority of people here all want the same thing; to see Vic reach his potential and become the big gods damn deal he deserves to be. Folks disagree on a few minor details but we all want to get to the same place. And the conversation has focused on the amputee/disabled aspect, last page or two, but that's just one consideration among many, far from the most important and far from the first specific element we've discussed here.

Said this pages back, but it bears repeating. In whatever you see as proper treatment for Vic, where and how does his character play into it? What's the arc that gets us from where we are to where you wanna be? What's the story behind it? I don't see a lot of talk about Vic himself or why what we consider 'best' for him actually benefits him, and not our particular inclinations.

Well you need to consider this: what defines him as a character? Why change that?