When did Bette and Kate Kane become relatives?

[Tzigone]

I've read the silver age and know Kathy and Betty started out as aunt and niece. I'll admit to be hazy on their official status between the mid-60s and late-70s (whether they officially existed, but weren't talked about or whether they'd been erased, as the golden age heroes were for a bit before earth two showed up).

COIE comes along and Kathy doesn't exist (as far as I know) and Bette has a new origin, codename, and actual name.

Then Kate Kane is created, and I've read that story. At this point she is not related to Bruce. But I don't recall any indication that she is related to Bette, either.

Then Kate gets retconned as Bruce's cousin. I've read about the story, but never read the story - so, is Bette established as being related to Kate (and thus Bruce) at that time, or did it happen at some other time? If so, when?

[Caivu]

Kate and Bette were definitely cousins by the time of Elegy. Martha Wayne's maiden name had been established as Kane at least as early as 2002, so Kate was speculated as being Bruce's cousin for a while before it was made official.

[Tzigone]

Kate and Bette were definitely cousins by the time of Elegy. Martha Wayne's maiden name had been established as Kane at least as early as 2002, so Kate was speculated as being Bruce's cousin for a while before it was made official.

Thanks for the Elegy info. I don't care about the speculation - Kane isn't an uncommon name, and it's a large city (and, of course, the name's source from Bob Kane and the unrelated-to-Bruce character she was based upon). It wasn't canon, and that's what matters to me.

[thwhtGuardian]

It goes like this, in Secret Files and Origins(1997) we definitely learned that Bruce's mother's maiden name was Kane, and she was an heiress of the Kane Chemical fortune.

Then in 2006 in 52 #11 we're introduced to Kate Kane, heir to the Kayne family fortune where it's stated they own whatever the Wayne's don't. The relationship to Bruce Wayne is never stated but it didn't really need to be, how many billionaire families with the name Kane would one city have? So, for anyone paying attention it was clear that Kate was related to Martha Wayne nee Kane and thus related to Bruce Wayne. And it's not fan speculation either, that's directly from the writers too.

And in Detective Comics #854 "Elegy, part 1" we learned that Kate was Bette's cousin.

And finally in Batman Inc. #4 we learned that the original Kathy Kane was technically Bruce's aunt by marriage but that after she was widowed she became a crimefighter and later became Bruce's lover.

[Tzigone]

It goes like this, in Secret Files and Origins(1997) we definitely learned that Bruce's mother's maiden name was Kane, and she was an heiress of the Kane Chemical fortune.

As I recall, it said she was the sole heir to Kane Chemical.

So, for anyone paying attention it was clear that Kate was related to Martha Wayne nee Kane and thus related to Bruce Wayne

So I could say if one was "paying attention", they'd not think Martha had siblings. I really dislike the insult you have here to anyone who doesn't draw the same conclusions you do, when we had at least some evidence of them not being (first) cousins and the name is plainly derived from a real-world figure that has a lot of reference to him in the comics and pulled off an older character who was not related to Bruce (at that last name was assigned to him when Kate and Kathy didn't exist in-universe).

[thwhtGuardian]

As I recall, it said she was the sole heir to Kane Chemical.

So I could say if one was "paying attention", they'd not think Martha had siblings. I really dislike the insult you have here to anyone who doesn't draw the same conclusions you do, when we had at least some evidence of them not being (first) cousins and the name is plainly derived from a real-world figure that has a lot of reference to him in the comics and pulled off an older character who was not related to Bruce (at that last name was assigned to him when Kate and Kathy didn't exist in-universe).

It's not an insult it was the common opinion when the book came out, and that fan reaction was later confirmed on page. Retcons happen, one Kane became a family. I don't really understand why you're making an issue of this.

[Jim Kelly]

I've read the silver age and know Kathy and Betty started out as aunt and niece. I'll admit to be hazy on their official status between the mid-60s and late-70s (whether they officially existed, but weren't talked about or whether they'd been erased, as the golden age heroes were for a bit before earth two showed up).

Just so you know, Kathy Kane never really went away in the 1960s. Since she was introduced in 1956, I would say she actually belongs to Earth-One. In the constructed version of Earth-Two, retroactively there was a Kathy Kane/Batwoman, but the dividing line for Earth-Two and Earth-One seems to be around 1954--on Earth-One, Catwoman returned to a life of crime and never married Bruce, whereas on Earth-Two, she married Bruce. The original Kathy Kane dated an unmarried Bruce (and in imaginary stories they later got married and had a son), so that couldn't have been on Earth-Two.

Betty Kane wasn't introduced until 1961. So she doesn't seem to be "Golden Age" at all.

While Julie Schwartz ignored Batwoman and Bat-Girl in the comics he edited in the 1960s, over in WORLD'S FINEST COMICS, Mort Weisinger kept Batwoman alive in a couple of imaginary Super-Sons stories. These were the first Super-Sons stories (in 1965 and 1966). Kathy again had married Bruce and had his son--but this time instead of becoming Robin II, their son became a young Batman (Batboy? Batson?).

Later Super-Sons stories were secretive about who were the wives of Batman and Superman and mothers of the Super-Sons. But the mother always seemed to have dark hair (à la Kathy, but also Selina).

Kathy Kane returned for sure on Earth-One in BATMAN FAMILY, where she met up with Batgirl (Babs) and Robin (Dick), beginning in 1977. She also appeared in FREEDOM FIGHTERS. But Denny O'Neil (who seemed to have it in for women who dressed up in Bat costumes) killed off that Kathy in DETECTIVE COMICS 485 (August-September 1979).

Bat-Girl also returned in 1977, in TEEN TITANS, where she was a member of Teen Titans West. And after that series ended, she also showed up in BATMAN FAMILY--issue 15 (February-March 1978). She next appears in TALES OF THE TEEN TITANS 50 (February 1985), in time for Donna Troy's marriage to Terry (gag) Long. And then the Crisis changed everything.

[Digifiend]

As I recall, it said she was the sole heir to Kane Chemical.

So I could say if one was "paying attention", they'd not think Martha had siblings. I really dislike the insult you have here to anyone who doesn't draw the same conclusions you do, when we had at least some evidence of them not being (first) cousins and the name is plainly derived from a real-world figure that has a lot of reference to him in the comics and pulled off an older character who was not related to Bruce (at that last name was assigned to him when Kate and Kathy didn't exist in-universe).

Being the sole heir could mean that any siblings were dead. When Martha died as well - before inheriting - the new heirs would be the next generation down. If you die with no will your assets go to your spouse or children. If you have none (either because they're dead or you just never had kids), and no grandchildren either, it's then your siblings, and then their kids if the siblings are all dead. Hence Martha being the sole heir, than after her murder, Kathy (presumably the daughter of a sibling who pre-deceased her) inheriting instead.

[Triniking1234]

And finally in Batman Inc. #4 we learned that the original Kathy Kane was technically Bruce's aunt by marriage but that after she was widowed she became a crimefighter and later became Bruce's lover.

What the heck?

[thwhtGuardian]

What the heck?

Morrison did some interesting things to tie continuity together.

[bat39]

Morrison did some interesting things to tie continuity together.

IIRC, Elegy clearly established Bette as being Kate's cousin, which implicitly made Kathy Kane Kate's aunt.

Of course, Kate was later established as being Bruce's cousin as well. Which meant that Kathy had to be Bruce's 'aunt' in some sense...thankfully Morrison made her an aunt by marriage

Actually, come to think of it, I'm not sure of the chronology here - did Morrison establish Kathy as having married into the Kane family (i.e. Bruce's mother's family) before or after it was established that Kate was Bruce's cousin? I have a feeling that a lot of these things were being established independently by different creators around the same time.

[Jim Kelly]

People can be cousins. First cousins, second cousins. First cousin once removed, second cousin once removed. And so on. Sometimes these cousins are called Aunt or Uncle in the family.

[Frontier]

IIRC, Elegy clearly established Bette as being Kate's cousin, which implicitly made Kathy Kane Kate's aunt.

Of course, Kate was later established as being Bruce's cousin as well. Which meant that Kathy had to be Bruce's 'aunt' in some sense...thankfully Morrison made her an aunt by marriage

Actually, come to think of it, I'm not sure of the chronology here - did Morrison establish Kathy as having married into the Kane family (i.e. Bruce's mother's family) before or after it was established that Kate was Bruce's cousin? I have a feeling that a lot of these things were being established independently by different creators around the same time.

Bruce wasn't clearly Kate's cousin until Rebirth, so it would've been before I think.

[thwhtGuardian]

Bruce wasn't clearly Kate's cousin until Rebirth, so it would've been before I think.

It was never explicitly stated until Detective Comics #934(2016) but Kate said, "I've been waiting a year and a half for you to admit it" so it was definitely before that, but in Batman Inc. Kate said Kathy was her aunt and we learned in the same series that Kathy was Bruce's lover/aunt by marriage and that was 2011. And in zero year you had Uncle Phillup with a picture of the Kane twins in his office and then in the zero year tie in Batwoman #25 Kate and Bette both attend Phillip's funeral so it was increasingly hinted at before then.

But even before that it was wildly believed by fans even if Rucka didn't mean it to be so, I mean, how many billionaire families with the name Kane can live in the same city?

[Twice-named]

It was never explicitly stated until Detective Comics #934(2016) but Kate said, "I've been waiting a year and a half for you to admit it" so it was definitely before that, but in Batman Inc. Kate said Kathy was her aunt and we learned in the same series that Kathy was Bruce's lover/aunt by marriage and that was 2011. And in zero year you had Uncle Phillup with a picture of the Kane twins in his office and then in the zero year tie in Batwoman #25 Kate and Bette both attend Phillip's funeral so it was increasingly hinted at before then.

But even before that it was wildly believed by fans even if Rucka didn't mean it to be so, I mean, how many billionaire families with the name Kane can live in the same city?

Kate was only in #4 and 5 of the first volume of Batman Incorporated and, in those issues, she doesn't say Kathy is her aunt.