The execution of the Phantom Zone criminals

[kingaliencracker]

I wanted to discuss one of the most controversial Superman stories of all-time, given that we're now at the 35th anniversary of said story.

"The Supergirl Saga", which was John Byrne's last story arc of the post-Crisis reboot, started in September of 1988, and concluded the following month. During the storyline, Superman encounters a super-powered Lana Lang from the Pocket Universe, who wants his help in defeating three Kryptonian Criminals - General Zod, Zaora, and Quex-Ul - in her universe. The Kryptonians were set free from the Phantom Zone in earnest by the PU's Lex Luthor. The Kryptonians, who are much more powerful than Superman, destroy the PU Earth except for a small resistance in Smallville, which eventually falls during the course of the story. This leaves all life on the PU Earth wiped out, save Superman and Lana Lang (revealed to be a protoplasmic matrix created by PU Lex). Superman is able to defeat the Kryptonians by using gold Kryptonite found in the deceased PU Superboy's lab to depower them. Rather than take the depowered Kryptonians to his Earth to stand trial (risking his Earth should they ever regain their powers) or leave them on the decimated PU Earth, as well as to serve as the last representation of justice in the PU, Superman uses green Kryptonite to execute the Kryptonians. Superman returns to his universe with "Lana Lang" (who, after a series of events, becomes the post-Crisis Supergirl for a period), leaving her with the Kents. Superman departs to reflect on his actions.

Unquestionably, executing the Kryptonians was and has remained a controversial moment in Superman's history, even in light of it no longer being canon given the many subsequent reboots. Although it was implied that Superman killed in the Golden Age and he executed a demented Mister Mxyzptlk in Alan Moore's classic "Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow?" that preceded Byrne's reboot, the sequence of the Kryptonians begging for their lives while Superman holds the Kryptonite and sheds a tear left a lasting impression on Superman fans.

It's unknown what Byrne's motivation or intent was regarding the story, as he has not given any interviews nor provided any statements on his website discussing the matter. The creative teams that took over following Byrne used the moment to develop Superman's code against killing, eventually having Superman come to the conclusion that he will always find a better way.

Anyhow, what are your thoughts on the controversial story 35 years later?

[magha_regulus]

I absolutely hated this as a kid. I did like what came afterward, but this was just a series of bad choices. Superman should have never been put in that position. And don't get me started on the convoluted Matrix version of Supergirl.

[kingaliencracker]

I absolutely hated this as a kid. I did like what came afterward, but this was just a series of bad choices. Superman should have never been put in that position. And don't get me started on the convoluted Matrix version of Supergirl.

I don't mind Superman being put in no-win situations. But it certainly seemed like an odd choice given that Byrne went out of his way multiple times to establish Superman already had a no-kill code. And I'm not speaking out against capital punishment, but it seems to me the course of action for Superman would have been to bring the trio back to prime Earth and turn them over to the Guardians of the Universe. There were a lot of options for him on prime Earth that didn't exist in the Pocket Universe.

As far as Matrix Supergirl, I can't disagree with you but we did get an amazing Peter David run with the character.

[kingaliencracker]

I don't mind Superman being put in no-win situations. But it certainly seemed like an odd choice given that Byrne went out of his way multiple times to establish Superman already had a no-kill code. And I'm not speaking out against capital punishment, but it seems to me the course of action for Superman would have been to bring the trio back to prime Earth and turn them over to the Guardians of the Universe. There were a lot of options for him on prime Earth that didn't exist in the Pocket Universe.

As far as Matrix Supergirl, I can't disagree with you but we did get an amazing Peter David run with the character.

To correct this, I forgot the Guardians were off world at the time. But he could have turned them over to the Green Lantern Corps.

[Jim Kelly]

Given this was instituted to explain how "Superboy" was in the Legion of Super-Heroes and given that wasn't good enough for Mike Carlin who demanded that all reference to Superboy and Supergirl be dropped from the Five Year Later LEGION OF SUPER-HEROES and the timeline completely changed, I don't see how any of that story could still be in continuity less than two years after it happened.

None of it makes sense to me. It seems like Carlin cherry-picked what could be in continuity, even when it made no sense. Superboy couldn't be in continuity--not even the pocket universe one--but Matrix could. So much for the new universe making sense. Nobody should be mad at Superman for killing those Phantom Zone criminals because it never actually happened. And Clark had no reason to exile himself in outer space.

[Kuwagaton]

I happened across that beautiful MOS vol 4 hardcover today and also the beginning of the Seagle run by chance, where he was like, "I would never kill ever, son." The Supergirl Saga was excellent and the end really holds up.

Not an "I gotta kill you!" as we saw in the silver age King Superman story, but a moment where he takes his responsibility seriously. Being serious and responsible isn't about wish fulfillment although these traits can co-exist... being courageous, being a hero isn't just the fun stuff or the pleasant stuff. And so long as the example is maintained you have a code against killing that isn't naive. He'd revisit the idea of lethal measures constantly throughout about two decades and it never gets less coherent in referring to Superman #22.

[kingaliencracker]

Given this was instituted to explain how "Superboy" was in the Legion of Super-Heroes and given that wasn't good enough for Mike Carlin who demanded that all reference to Superboy and Supergirl be dropped from the Five Year Later LEGION OF SUPER-HEROES and the timeline completely changed, I don't see how any of that story could still be in continuity less than two years after it happened.

None of it makes sense to me. It seems like Carlin cherry-picked what could be in continuity, even when it made no sense. Superboy couldn't be in continuity--not even the pocket universe one--but Matrix could. So much for the new universe making sense. Nobody should be mad at Superman for killing those Phantom Zone criminals because it never actually happened. And Clark had no reason to exile himself in outer space.

My hunch is that Paul Levitz was keen on keeping the Legion's history tethered to Superboy/Superman, hence why we got the creation of the Pocket Universe in the first place. Once Levitz left, I don't think there was anyone advocating for that tether to remain.

But the Pocket Universe just created more issues than it solved, since it didn't explain Mon-El's or Supergirl's existence within the Legion. Then the PU became non-canon following Zero Hour, even though Superman's executing of the criminals remained canon up until probably the Futuresmiths storyline, but definitely ceased being canon following Infinite Crisis. Outside of Superboy-Prime punching a cosmic wall, I'm not sure how any of that makes sense.

[Marvel Man]

I wanted to discuss one of the most controversial Superman stories of all-time, given that we're now at the 35th anniversary of said story.

"The Supergirl Saga", which was John Byrne's last story arc of the post-Crisis reboot, started in September of 1988, and concluded the following month. During the storyline, Superman encounters a super-powered Lana Lang from the Pocket Universe, who wants his help in defeating three Kryptonian Criminals - General Zod, Zaora, and Quex-Ul - in her universe. The Kryptonians were set free from the Phantom Zone in earnest by the PU's Lex Luthor. The Kryptonians, who are much more powerful than Superman, destroy the PU Earth except for a small resistance in Smallville, which eventually falls during the course of the story. This leaves all life on the PU Earth wiped out, save Superman and Lana Lang (revealed to be a protoplasmic matrix created by PU Lex). Superman is able to defeat the Kryptonians by using gold Kryptonite found in the deceased PU Superboy's lab to depower them. Rather than take the depowered Kryptonians to his Earth to stand trial (risking his Earth should they ever regain their powers) or leave them on the decimated PU Earth, as well as to serve as the last representation of justice in the PU, Superman uses green Kryptonite to execute the Kryptonians. Superman returns to his universe with "Lana Lang" (who, after a series of events, becomes the post-Crisis Supergirl for a period), leaving her with the Kents. Superman departs to reflect on his actions.

Unquestionably, executing the Kryptonians was and has remained a controversial moment in Superman's history, even in light of it no longer being canon given the many subsequent reboots. Although it was implied that Superman killed in the Golden Age and he executed a demented Mister Mxyzptlk in Alan Moore's classic "Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow?" that preceded Byrne's reboot, the sequence of the Kryptonians begging for their lives while Superman holds the Kryptonite and sheds a tear left a lasting impression on Superman fans.

It's unknown what Byrne's motivation or intent was regarding the story, as he has not given any interviews nor provided any statements on his website discussing the matter. The creative teams that took over following Byrne used the moment to develop Superman's code against killing, eventually having Superman come to the conclusion that he will always find a better way.

Anyhow, what are your thoughts on the controversial story 35 years later?

It's worth noting that "the nervous breakdown and the split personality was originally BYRNE's idea. Ordway suggested that he use Gangbuster (as Byrne was going to introduce a new hero and have that hero revealed to be Superman) but the nervous breakdown was all Byrne.

Stern and Ordway (and editor Mike Carlin, I presume) then took that one step further with the Exile storyline, but the first few months after Byrne left Superman, Stern and Ordway were still working with Byrne's basic plots. So while they got the benefit of APPEARING to distance themselves from Byrne's dramatic plot development, they were actually following it".

Source: Comic Book Legends Revealed #478

[kingaliencracker]

It's worth noting that "the nervous breakdown and the split personality was originally BYRNE's idea. Ordway suggested that he use Gangbuster (as Byrne was going to introduce a new hero and have that hero revealed to be Superman) but the nervous breakdown was all Byrne.

Stern and Ordway (and editor Mike Carlin, I presume) then took that one step further with the Exile storyline, but the first few months after Byrne left Superman, Stern and Ordway were still working with Byrne's basic plots. So while they got the benefit of APPEARING to distance themselves from Byrne's dramatic plot development, they were actually following it".

Source: Comic Book Legends Revealed #478

Thanks for sharing this! I had read it several years ago. I didn't doubt that Byrne's blueprint was followed to some degree following his abrupt departure from Superman.

[JBatmanFan05]

Anyhow, what are your thoughts on the controversial story 35 years later?

For me, it's by far the worst moment in Superman comics and/or history. When I or someone else types about the Marvelization of Superman Post-Crisis, it's moments/stuff like this that leap first to mind. I will never praise Byrne's solid run too, too much due to this abominable event, that black stain. I simply deeply disagree fundamentally with anyone that believes Superman can be written to kill if the story deems it necessary (Elseworlds is the way to explore such stories IMHO, not main continuity).

[All Star Superman]

For me, it's the by far the worst moment in Superman comics and/or history. When I or someone else types about the Marvelization of Superman Post-Crisis, it's moments like this that leap first to mind. I will never praise Byrne's run too too much due to this abominable event, that black stain. I simply disagree fundamentally with anyone that believes Superman can be written to kill if the story deems it necessary (Elseworlds is the way to explore such stories IMHO, not main continuity).

I agree with you 100 percent. Most folks (some of whom have posted here) miss the point of this argument: it's not that Superman can't kill, it's that he should not and should never be put into that situation as a character. It's simply not his archetype and is an issue that is better explored with other characters. For example, it was fitting that Peter Parker, rooted in Marvel's "world outside your window," face the realities of drug addiction through his best friend's struggles. It's an entirely different issue with Superman in DC's "a world that could exist in a distant, fantasy reality" to be forced to deal with the issue of capital punishment. No matter Byrne (or David Goyer or Hack Snyder's) reasons, they simply don't understand the unities of the character and his archetype and, thus, fail to understand why this is not the kind of story that is told with Superman. The same goes for "fans" who will push and then break the boundaries of logic to defend what cannot be defended.

If you think Superman should kill, go ahead and have teenaged Kara Zor-El get pregnant and decide to get an abortion.

However, the issue of capital punishment can and should be addressed in Superman's world, just not in this way. Perhaps someone close to him (NOT Batman or another superhero) takes a life or a villain is sentenced to death. Superman, considering all life as sacred, would have something to say about that and that's how you address such an issue with Superman.

Of course, those people who claim to know and understand Superman will continue to defend anything that "makes him cooler" or "more relatable," thus proving they neither know or understand the character.

[Agent Z]

I agree with you 100 percent. Most folks (some of whom have posted here) miss the point of this argument: it's not that Superman can't kill, it's that he should not and should never be put into that situation as a character. It's simply not his archetype and is an issue that is better explored with other characters. For example, it was fitting that Peter Parker, rooted in Marvel's "world outside your window," face the realities of drug addiction through his best friend's struggles. It's an entirely different issue with Superman in DC's "a world that could exist in a distant, fantasy reality" to be forced to deal with the issue of capital punishment. No matter Byrne (or David Goyer or Hack Snyder's) reasons, they simply don't understand the unities of the character and his archetype and, thus, fail to understand why this is not the kind of story that is told with Superman. The same goes for "fans" who will push and then break the boundaries of logic to defend what cannot be defended.

If you think Superman should kill, go ahead and have teenaged Kara Zor-El get pregnant and decide to get an abortion.

However, the issue of capital punishment can and should be addressed in Superman's world, just not in this way. Perhaps someone close to him (NOT Batman or another superhero) takes a life or a villain is sentenced to death. Superman, considering all life as sacred, would have something to say about that and that's how you address such an issue with Superman.

Of course, those people who claim to know and understand Superman will continue to defend anything that "makes him cooler" or "more relatable," thus proving they neither know or understand the character.

I understand the argument just fine. I just think it's an argument built on faulty logic and childishly simple morality.

[Hypestyle]

how many versions of Zod exist at this point? with the multiverse in mind, "does it matter" if any of them get killed?
considering the abilities of kryptonians under a yellow sun, morally unhinged folks like Zod are a permanent super-threat.

[Doctor Know]

how many versions of Zod exist at this point? with the multiverse in mind, "does it matter" if any of them get killed?
considering the abilities of kryptonians under a yellow sun, morally unhinged folks like Zod are a permanent super-threat.

You know, I actually counted and list all the various Zods and their fates across media. See below and be amused at how much DC does not care about this character.

Musings about Zod:

If the letter V is for Vendetta. Then E should be "Expendable". Because that's what Zod is. The writers have no problem introducing Zod and then killing him off at the end of their story. Of the list below, you will note that 5 different Zods existed during the Post-Crisis continuity. Being an evil Superman isn't new. The Powers That Be have access to Ultraman (the Crime Syndicate), Bizarro, Cyborg Superman (Hank or Zor-El), Darkseid and evil versions of Clark to play with. With the exception of Bizarro (who dies frequently due to improper cloning techniques or cellular degradation), no other evil Superman character is treated as expendable as Zod is.

Superman II (1980) - Zod is depowered, thrown into a wall and down a bottomless cavern.

Superman vol 2 #22 (1988) - Supergirl Saga: Pre-Crisis Zod is executed by Superman using Green Kryptonite. This after Zod killed the entire populace of a parallel Earth and boasted about doing it again.

Action Comics #776 (2001) - Return to Krypton: A Zod from Krypton's past (before it blows up) is killed by Jor-El, when he sticks a trident into Zod's power armor. Before Zod can deliver the killing blow to Superman.

Action Comics #805 (2003) - The Zod from 1988 possess a Russian soldier and gains power to take revenge on Superman for killing him. He dies flying into Superman at full speed. Right as his own psuedo Kryptonian powers are neutralized.

Superman vol 2 #215 (2005) - For Tomorrow : This General Zod of undefined origins; abducts 1 million Metropolis citizens and transports them into the Phantom Zone. In an attempt to lure Superman there. He dies by allowing himself to be sucked into a Phantom Zone singularity as the region of the zone he and Superman were in collapsed.

Action Comics #845 (2007) - Last Son through War of the Supermen : Geoff Johns introduces the "real" General Zod of the post-Crisis on Infinite Earth's (1985) continuity. Ignoring all the ones before. This one is highly based on the Zod who appears in Superman II. As the story "Last Son" featured Richard Donner as a co-writer for the title. This Zod escaped the Zone 3 times, was imprisoned in the Zone 3 times, before Barry Flashpointed the universe in 2011.

Smallville CW (2007-2010) Season 6, 7, 8 and 9: General Zod's Phantom Zone spirit possesses Lex Luthor as a host as a way to escape the PZ imprisonment. Trapping Clark in the PZ in his place. Clark escapes and uses a Krytonian crystal to free Lex from possession, and send Zod's spirit back to the PZ.

Major Zod, a clone of the Zod created by a Kryptonian super macguffin, The Orb. Like the Codex in the DCEU, it contained a registry of citizens and could recreate important figures of Krypton when prompted. Major Zod also tried to take over the Earth but was thwarted by Clark, teleported off Earth and arrested by the Kandorians to be tried for his crimes.

Man of Steel (2013) - DCEU Zod was killed after his destroy all life on Earth plot was foiled.

New 52 Zod (2013) - Visually taking cues from MOS. This Zod would escape the Phantom Zone and basically menace the world. The writers don't seem to know what to do with him, except not put him back in the Phantom Zone. This Zod has fought Superman, Hal Jordan, Wonder Woman, and the Suicide Squad. He would later become a member of the Suicide Squad. Taking orders from Waller. How embarrassing.

Superman Earth One Vol 3 (2015) - Zod is killed by Alexa Luthor. Wife of Alexander Luthor. After he kills Lex and is about to kill Superman. He is depowered with a red sun gun by Lex and shot 4 times in the chest by Alexa with a revolver. Will the humiliation end?

Supergirl CW (2018) - Season 3 episode 12 "For the Good". Superman is stated to have killed his Zod in a past adventure.

Superman and Lois (2021) - Season 1 episode 12 "Through The Valley of Death". The deceased Zod's consciousness possess Superman and is later destroyed by Superman. With John Henry's help.

Flash (2023) - Zod finally wins one. But he succeeds in killing both baby Kal and adult Kara.

[exile001]

I agree with you 100 percent. Most folks (some of whom have posted here) miss the point of this argument: it's not that Superman can't kill, it's that he should not and should never be put into that situation as a character. It's simply not his archetype and is an issue that is better explored with other characters. For example, it was fitting that Peter Parker, rooted in Marvel's "world outside your window," face the realities of drug addiction through his best friend's struggles. It's an entirely different issue with Superman in DC's "a world that could exist in a distant, fantasy reality" to be forced to deal with the issue of capital punishment. No matter Byrne (or David Goyer or Hack Snyder's) reasons, they simply don't understand the unities of the character and his archetype and, thus, fail to understand why this is not the kind of story that is told with Superman. The same goes for "fans" who will push and then break the boundaries of logic to defend what cannot be defended.

If you think Superman should kill, go ahead and have teenaged Kara Zor-El get pregnant and decide to get an abortion.

However, the issue of capital punishment can and should be addressed in Superman's world, just not in this way. Perhaps someone close to him (NOT Batman or another superhero) takes a life or a villain is sentenced to death. Superman, considering all life as sacred, would have something to say about that and that's how you address such an issue with Superman.

Of course, those people who claim to know and understand Superman will continue to defend anything that "makes him cooler" or "more relatable," thus proving they neither know or understand the character.

Ah, yes, gatekeeping at its finest.

MY Superman doesn't X, therefore nobody who is a real fan could ever want X, Y or Z explored.

PS, throwing in teenage pregnancy as your moral panic equivalent to Superman killing is laughably outdated.