The execution of the Phantom Zone criminals

[kingaliencracker]

It's times like that when you have to remember that Superman, for all his posing, posturing and acceptance from the general public, is still a costumed vigilante.

Superman is not Captain America or even Captain Atom. He has sworn no oaths of allegiance, does not wear a uniform and has never laced up boots to follow marching orders. Like a good soldier.

As a self-appointed actor on the side of law and order. Superman is free to act as he sees fit. His moral code and sense of right and wrong being his guide in dealing out justice and judgements.


In-Universe: The Phantom Zone criminals are unrepentant mass murders on a planetary scale.

Out-Of-Universe: General Zod and his band of baddies are Hitler and Nazi stand-ins. The evil Übermensch.

The crux of the issue for the readers and the character is whether Superman was morally wrong for killing the PZ Criminals.

I'm on the side of Superman was morally right to terminate the threat the PZ criminals posed. It's not like Kryptonite depowerment has ever stopped Superman, Kara and Connor before. The PZ criminals already made good on their threat to kill 6 billion lives on Pocket Earth. Reverse engineering Luthor's tech to come to main DCU Earth is not out of the scope of possibility.


What Zod, Faora/Zaora and Quex-Ul did isn't comparable to what most other villains save for Brainiac, Darkseid, Mongul, Anti-Monitor, Thanos, Kang the Conqueror, Galactus, Beyonder powered Dr. Doom; are capable of.

If it was Superman judging Red Skull, his daughter Sinthea Shmidt, and Crossbones. Who are literal Nazis but never had powers beyond Superman himself. And Superman decided to execute them without trial. I would have reservations about it, but I wouldn't see the act as murder or an injustice.

It's a grim and solemn duty Superman had to carry out. The Last Son of Krypton, passing judgement on 3 of Krypton's most notorious criminals. It isolates him in a way none of us can imagine. But as a costumed vigilante. This is the life Superman chose. Not everyday will be as easy as cops and robbers.

As a point of clarification, Byrne's Superman was not a vigilante. He was deputized to make arrests and enforce law, and was authorized by President Reagan to act on behalf of the United States. In fact, he comes into conflict with Batman and Gangbuster right away because he makes it clear he does not tolerate vigilante methods.

Whether you agree or disagree with Superman executing the Kryptonians generally depends on three things - whether he had the authority to execute them, whether there was enough evidence to find them guilty and sentence them in absence of a judge & jury, and whether they posed a threat to prime Earth.

[kingaliencracker]

I also want to stress that the Pocket Universe did not have any other super heroes to defend Earth. That's why the Kryptonians were able to decimate the planet unchallenged. On prime Earth, there were a plethora of super heroes that could have combated or neutralized the Kryptonians, if they somehow regained their powers (which again, there was no evidence to suggest that this was possible). We need to consider that when judging Superman's actions.

[Kuwagaton]

I think by the conclusion of Exile he acknowledges that he made a mistake in executing the Kryptonians. That was essentially the purpose of the story - that he would always find a better way.

He tells mongul "I'm Superman and I don't kill!" But really, that's in response to Mongul trying to make him kill.

[Jon Clark]

If Superman had been facing someone other than Phantom Zoners would anyone have a different answer?

Superman is brought over by Pete Ross because the Pocket Universe had actually been more like the Silver/Bronze Age where Luthor had been Superboy's enemy. Once he learned Superboy was dead Lex went a bit nuts and set off some anti=Kryptonian weapon killing almost everyone else (Pete and a handful of others somehow survived until now). Same ending with just Superman and Lex. Lex's arsenal is depleted, but he still has that knowledge. Is Superman still in the right to kill this Lex because he might be able to rebild that weaponry (and in fact threatens to do so)?

The Pocket U had no Oa, but imagine it did. Same scenario except here the destoyer is Parallax (Hal before absorbing the battery) or Sinestro and Superman manages to capture/destroy their ring. They destroyed the Pocket U Earth but now they are just powerless beings without the rings. They could get them back and technically aren't really agents of the Prime Universe Oa ... Again Superman killing the ringless Hal/Sinestro any better or worse than killing powerless Kryptonians?

[manwhohaseverything]

He tells mongul "I'm Superman and I don't kill!" But really, that's in response to Mongul trying to make him kill.

I think @kingaliencracker is correct.I read exile as "redemption" story.It wasn't just for mongul.Byrne has particular leaning and vision for superman.Even in that The guy isn't much of dirty harry.He has set a rule.He ain't gonna break it.

[Agent Z]

I think @kingaliencracker is correct.I read exile as "redemption" story.It wasn't just for mongul.Byrne has particular leaning and vision for superman.Even in that The guy isn't much of dirty harry.He has set a rule.He ain't gonna break it.

He broke that rule for Bizarro and that was before the story with the Phantom Zone criminals.

[Agent Z]

If Superman had been facing someone other than Phantom Zoners would anyone have a different answer?

Superman is brought over by Pete Ross because the Pocket Universe had actually been more like the Silver/Bronze Age where Luthor had been Superboy's enemy. Once he learned Superboy was dead Lex went a bit nuts and set off some anti=Kryptonian weapon killing almost everyone else (Pete and a handful of others somehow survived until now). Same ending with just Superman and Lex. Lex's arsenal is depleted, but he still has that knowledge. Is Superman still in the right to kill this Lex because he might be able to rebild that weaponry (and in fact threatens to do so)?

The Pocket U had no Oa, but imagine it did. Same scenario except here the destoyer is Parallax (Hal before absorbing the battery) or Sinestro and Superman manages to capture/destroy their ring. They destroyed the Pocket U Earth but now they are just powerless beings without the rings. They could get them back and technically aren't really agents of the Prime Universe Oa ... Again Superman killing the ringless Hal/Sinestro any better or worse than killing powerless Kryptonians?

If they have no resources and no way to regain their weapons and powers, then yes, killing them is pointless.

[Kuwagaton]

If Superman had been facing someone other than Phantom Zoners would anyone have a different answer?

Superman is brought over by Pete Ross because the Pocket Universe had actually been more like the Silver/Bronze Age where Luthor had been Superboy's enemy. Once he learned Superboy was dead Lex went a bit nuts and set off some anti=Kryptonian weapon killing almost everyone else (Pete and a handful of others somehow survived until now). Same ending with just Superman and Lex. Lex's arsenal is depleted, but he still has that knowledge. Is Superman still in the right to kill this Lex because he might be able to rebild that weaponry (and in fact threatens to do so)?

The Pocket U had no Oa, but imagine it did. Same scenario except here the destoyer is Parallax (Hal before absorbing the battery) or Sinestro and Superman manages to capture/destroy their ring. They destroyed the Pocket U Earth but now they are just powerless beings without the rings. They could get them back and technically aren't really agents of the Prime Universe Oa ... Again Superman killing the ringless Hal/Sinestro any better or worse than killing powerless Kryptonians?

Those scenarios change a whole lot of details and in doing so they get away from one idea: whether Superman could conceivably beat them using other means. You can even take his comment about fighting Quex, that he shouldn't get caught up in a macho brawl, to mean that there's a possible way to handle one of them differently. But three Kryptonians with superior powers was a very specific threat.

that also gets away from the point that the judgment was about what they did and not what they could do. So some examples brought up to make this situation sound hypocritical have involved "what if ___ threatened with ___" or "___ could have probably done the same but the outcome was different." Whether or not the PZ criminals could repower, and if we admit to pre crisis leanings then we have to at least admit that they could breed a new generation for one thing, the fact is that they DID kill the population of earth. The idea of future threats is really just establishing that they plead guilty with no compunction so that clearly, any small chance of having the ability to threaten means that many people would be killed.

I think @kingaliencracker is correct.I read exile as "redemption" story.It wasn't just for mongul.Byrne has particular leaning and vision for superman.Even in that The guy isn't much of dirty harry.He has set a rule.He ain't gonna break it.

I'm referring to what was written during the story and going forward, Superman was not sorry about what he did.

[Doctor Know]

As a point of clarification, Byrne's Superman was not a vigilante. He was deputized to make arrests and enforce law, and was authorized by President Reagan to act on behalf of the United States. In fact, he comes into conflict with Batman and Gangbuster right away because he makes it clear he does not tolerate vigilante methods.

Whether you agree or disagree with Superman executing the Kryptonians generally depends on three things - whether he had the authority to execute them, whether there was enough evidence to find them guilty and sentence them in absence of a judge & jury, and whether they posed a threat to prime Earth.

You are correct that Superman was deputized by the current mayor of the city of Metropolis. Same with the off the radar missions Reagan would task Superman to do. But that's really a sticky note approval from a current administrations. That authority leaves Superman the moment a change of administration happens or whenever Superman acts outside of the jurisdiction of Metropolis or without permission from Reagan. Which was frequently. Batman works with Commissioner of Gotham PD and the district attorney's office and he is still considered a vigilante. The X-Men have had White House contacts and SHIELD contacts in the past. And yet they were for the longest time still considered vigilantes because they were independent actors. Not wearing a uniform and not being on government payroll has consequences.

I also want to stress that the Pocket Universe did not have any other super heroes to defend Earth. That's why the Kryptonians were able to decimate the planet unchallenged. On prime Earth, there were a plethora of super heroes that could have combated or neutralized the Kryptonians, if they somehow regained their powers (which again, there was no evidence to suggest that this was possible). We need to consider that when judging Superman's actions.

Also remind all parties that these were Pre-Crisis Kryptonians. They easily overpowered our Superman and would've done the same on Prime Earth. Look no further than Infinite Crisis and the Sinestro Corps War and what happened when Superboy-Prime (a Pre-Crisis K) went renegade and on a rampage. He killed several members of the Teen Titans, killed 42 Green Lanterns, nearly killed Sodam Yat (Daxamite with Superman powers and GL ring), killed an Oan Guardian, killed the Golden Age Superman, shrugged off attacks from Black Adam and Mordru the Magician.

Can you imagine 3 Superboy-Prime level Ks attacking Prime Earth during the era of the JLI? Mate, it would be over before it even started. Hell, look at Geoff John's Last Son story from 2007. Where Zod and a dozen or so Post-Crisis K's escaped the PZ. They easily overpowered the Superman, the JLA, the JSA, and the TT.


It's also worth considering what punishment would befit Zod, Faora/Zaora and Quex-Ul.

The Crime: Three Super-Human space Nazis commit genocide against 5 billion people.

Option A: Decide punishing them by executing them is wrong and they should instead be taken to another planet/dimension and imprisoned there.

Option B: Judge them for their actions (standing literally in a wasteland that has no atmosphere). Ponder and weigh their actions against their declarations to repeat their offenses. No apologies, no vows to reform or seek redemption. Execute a sentence that punishes the offenders and prevents them from every repeating their offenses again.

If Superman had been facing someone other than Phantom Zoners would anyone have a different answer?

Superman is brought over by Pete Ross because the Pocket Universe had actually been more like the Silver/Bronze Age where Luthor had been Superboy's enemy. Once he learned Superboy was dead Lex went a bit nuts and set off some anti=Kryptonian weapon killing almost everyone else (Pete and a handful of others somehow survived until now). Same ending with just Superman and Lex. Lex's arsenal is depleted, but he still has that knowledge. Is Superman still in the right to kill this Lex because he might be able to rebild that weaponry (and in fact threatens to do so)?

The Pocket U had no Oa, but imagine it did. Same scenario except here the destoyer is Parallax (Hal before absorbing the battery) or Sinestro and Superman manages to capture/destroy their ring. They destroyed the Pocket U Earth but now they are just powerless beings without the rings. They could get them back and technically aren't really agents of the Prime Universe Oa ... Again Superman killing the ringless Hal/Sinestro any better or worse than killing powerless Kryptonians?

@bold
Like Darkseid? Who multiple Superman writers across various media (comics, animation, movies and games) have attempted to stage a final showdown against the MOS, where only one comes out alive.


Or the Anti-Monitor? The original Anti-Monitor being killed by Golden Age Superman at the end of COIE. But he's been revived several times since 1985.


Or a murderous and mad Mxyzsptlk? Who declared he'd spend 2,000 years being wicked and evil before stopping.


How about Brainiac's Marvel counterpart, Kang the Conqueror? Brainiac is a machine, but Kang is a man. A man who travels the universe and through time to conqueror and wage war against countless civilizations. Not to dissimilar to Convergence/Future's End God Brainiac. Who destroyed worlds and collected cities from scores of doomed timelines/universes. When the Avengers finally beat Kang and held him in custody for his crimes during the 2001 story "The Kang Dynasty" storyline. The writer (Kurt Buisek) let us know through dialogue that Kang was to be executed for his crimes. Kang escapes with the aid of his son Marcus. But Kang knew what was coming to him and wasn't trying to contest it.


While Superman doesn't feel any guilt at repeatedly destroying a sentient machine like Brainiac. (Somewhere Captain Picard weeps.) If Brainiac were organic, I imagine Superman would have to take steps to prevent Brainiac's genocides from continuing. Brainiac is never going to moderate and stop his war on creation.


How about Thanos? A character with a body count stacked way higher than Darkseid's and is in death cult who worships Death itself. Hell, the Avengers in the MCU killed that prick twice in Avengers Endgame and nobody batted an eye or lost sleep over it. Once in the beginning of Endgame. After Thanos destroyed the Infinity Stones and Gauntlet and was powerless with one arm. A second time at the end of the film. After Thanos boasted he would repeat his counterpart's actions and staged an assault to do so. Nearly succeeding.


With regards to Hal/Parallax. He was killed by Ollie in Zero Hour. Arrow to the heart to stop his war on creation and save the universe from a mad dictator who killed the Guardians of Oa and the GLC.



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For characters like Superman, lethal force is an extreme circumstance. Don't get things twisted thinking that Superman killing is equal to Deathstroke, Punisher, Vigilante, Wolverine, Deadpool, Red Hood, the Ultimate Avengers, the Green Lantern Corps under Geoff Johns and other anti-heroes and heroes who are dealing out capital punishment willy-nilly because it's "cool and edgy". Characters who view taking in the perps alive is an inconvenience to them and their mission.

[kingaliencracker]

You are correct that Superman was deputized by the current mayor of the city of Metropolis. Same with the off the radar missions Reagan would task Superman to do. But that's really a sticky note approval from a current administrations. That authority leaves Superman the moment a change of administration happens or whenever Superman acts outside of the jurisdiction of Metropolis or without permission from Reagan. Which was frequently. Batman works with Commissioner of Gotham PD and the district attorney's office and he is still considered a vigilante. The X-Men have had White House contacts and SHIELD contacts in the past. And yet they were for the longest time still considered vigilantes because they were independent actors. Not wearing a uniform and not being on government payroll has consequences.

I think for the purpose of discussion, Superman is not a vigilante. I don't think he's ever been presented that way except in isolated situations.

Also remind all parties that these were Pre-Crisis Kryptonians. They easily overpowered our Superman and would've done the same on Prime Earth. Look no further than Infinite Crisis and the Sinestro Corps War and what happened when Superboy-Prime (a Pre-Crisis K) went renegade and on a rampage. He killed several members of the Teen Titans, killed 42 Green Lanterns, nearly killed Sodam Yat (Daxamite with Superman powers and GL ring), killed an Oan Guardian, killed the Golden Age Superman, shrugged off attacks from Black Adam and Mordru the Magician.

Can you imagine 3 Superboy-Prime level Ks attacking Prime Earth during the era of the JLI? Mate, it would be over before it even started. Hell, look at Geoff John's Last Son story from 2007. Where Zod and a dozen or so Post-Crisis K's escaped the PZ. They easily overpowered the Superman, the JLA, the JSA, and the TT.

Superboy Prime has attacked Earth numerous times, and has been thwarted each time by the combined might of the super heroes. I have no reason to think this would have been different in 1988-era DCU.

Also remember that even if the Kryptonians had gained their powers back - and again, there was ZERO evidence to suggest this was possible - Superman still had the green Kryptonite to use against them.

It's also worth considering what punishment would befit Zod, Faora/Zaora and Quex-Ul.

The Crime: Three Super-Human space Nazis commit genocide against 5 billion people.

Option A: Decide punishing them by executing them is wrong and they should instead be taken to another planet/dimension and imprisoned there.

Option B: Judge them for their actions (standing literally in a wasteland that has no atmosphere). Ponder and weigh their actions against their declarations to repeat their offenses. No apologies, no vows to reform or seek redemption. Execute a sentence that punishes the offenders and prevents them from every repeating their offenses again.

I'm not saying that the Kryptonians didn't deserve capital punishment. Again, I'm not here to discuss my opinions of the death penalty. I'm just saying that I don't know if Superman should have been the one to do it.

[kingaliencracker]

I'm referring to what was written during the story and going forward, Superman was not sorry about what he did.

If you read Exile and walked away from it feeling that Superman did not regret or feel overwhelming guilt and remorse for what he had done, then you and I had completely different interpretations of the story.

[kingaliencracker]

He broke that rule for Bizarro and that was before the story with the Phantom Zone criminals.

To be fair, Byrne's Bizarro was clearly established as not being a lifeform.

[Kuwagaton]

If you read Exile and walked away from it feeling that Superman did not regret or feel overwhelming guilt and remorse for what he had done, then you and I had completely different interpretations of the story.

Some people adore the Byrne run, some people despise it. I think it should get some props for making a strong impression in general and offering such a provocative story. I'd like to be persistent with my point but by no means do I wanna imply that there's only one way to read, of course. But for me the important thing is separating grief, remorse, and even his PTSD from guilt. The end of #22 had him standing in the middle of a Holocaust and without guilt there would still have been that overwhelming sorrow.

I don't remember how Stern ended up writing Superman, but he had a strong working relationship with Byrne if not friendship so it worked in many ways for him to get the baton. He ended up being a big part of finishing Exile (with or without some notes) and when he revisited that plot later:



When Superman spoke to Jackal in Action Comics #683, he really didn't have an obligation to go there, or omit the idea that he'd made a mistake if that's how he really felt. I certainly would have found it weird if all he said was to distance himself from lethal force only to fight Doomsday immediately after.

[kingaliencracker]

Some people adore the Byrne run, some people despise it. I think it should get some props for making a strong impression in general and offering such a provocative story. I'd like to be persistent with my point but by no means do I wanna imply that there's only one way to read, of course. But for me the important thing is separating grief, remorse, and even his PTSD from guilt. The end of #22 had him standing in the middle of a Holocaust and without guilt there would still have been that overwhelming sorrow.

I don't remember how Stern ended up writing Superman, but he had a strong working relationship with Byrne if not friendship so it worked in many ways for him to get the baton. He ended up being a big part of finishing Exile (with or without some notes) and when he revisited that plot later:



When Superman spoke to Jackal in Action Comics #683, he really didn't have an obligation to go there, or omit the idea that he'd made a mistake if that's how he really felt. I certainly would have found it weird if all he said was to distance himself from lethal force only to fight Doomsday immediately after.

To me, this is what's frustrating about how the executions were painted after the fact. Byrne's intent with the story was to show Superman as the ultimate force for justice - he executed the Kryptonians not because they were dangerous, but because what they had done was so heinous and unequal to anything seen before, that executing them was the only logical sentence for Superman. Yes, Zod made some veiled threats about getting their powers back and coming to prime Earth. But again, there was zero evidence to suggest that this was possible, and even if it was, Superman still had the green Kryptonite from the Pocket Universe (not to mention other heroes to assist in prime Earth). If Byrne's intent was for Superman to eliminate some potential future threat Zod & company posed, then the gold Kryptonite never would have been an element to the story.

But DC later tried to twist the story into this whole "he didn't really have a choice" scenario because of the threat the Kryptonians posed, and that's simply not true. Superman had a few choices that didn't involve executing the Kryptonians, especially in light of the fact that they were depowered.

As far as the panel you shared, I get how things played out later. You yourself posted an interview with Jurgens where he said he was against the executions because there was no threat from Zod & company at that moment. Yet, he had Superman ramming his fist through a depowered Cyborg Superman and vibrating his arm at superspeed to shatter him to pieces. Kind of a "do as I say, not as I do" scenario for sure. All I'll say is that my interpretation of Exile was that Superman was completely regretful over the executions, and at the conclusion he was resolute to always find a better way.

[Superfan90]

My hunch is that Paul Levitz was keen on keeping the Legion's history tethered to Superboy/Superman, hence why we got the creation of the Pocket Universe in the first place. Once Levitz left, I don't think there was anyone advocating for that tether to remain.

But the Pocket Universe just created more issues than it solved, since it didn't explain Mon-El's or Supergirl's existence within the Legion. Then the PU became non-canon following Zero Hour, even though Superman's executing of the criminals remained canon up until probably the Futuresmiths storyline, but definitely ceased being canon following Infinite Crisis. Outside of Superboy-Prime punching a cosmic wall, I'm not sure how any of that makes sense.

Actually Time Trapper explained that he created Mon-El in the pocket universe in Legion v4 4 which was then wiped out from continuity. Supergirl was unexplainable before the soft reboot however.

Trapper mentioned he created a pocket universe even after zero hour.