The execution of the Phantom Zone criminals

[HsssH]

I'm not sure how we even go from Superman executing mass murderers to teenage Kara getting an abortion.

[Kuwagaton]

But I never agreed with this particular execution. As I understand it the faux Zoners were permanently powerless, trapped in a pocket reality with no resources, and no allies. Did they even have food? The odds of them escaping to cause trouble again were basically nil. And correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't that dimension also imploding?

They didn't pose a clear and present danger to anyone. This wasn't Clark making a choice with lives on the line (including his own) and seconds on the clock. This wasn't a man out of options and full of desperation with the world in the balance. This was a man who was just afraid, and acting on that fear. Clark killed them on nothing more than a slim, almost-impossible *chance* that they "might" someday escape, that they "might" somehow get their powers back.

This wasn't justice, it was cowardice.

This is the most common point and forgive me if this sounds like a repeat but I think skipping those pages is completely understandable: it's built on a misunderstanding of the scene because the story is about Superman being judge, jury, and executioner. There's a fair argument about their threat level but that's not how execution works.

Zod speaks up and explicitly threatens to return. However, in responding, Superman sidesteps that threat to talk about the issue at hand. The comparison to Hitler is easy to understand, because we know that with the war over there was essentially no chance for him to ever engineer his atrocities again. He'd probably end up like Zod here getting strangled by a less than sympathetic fellow inmate. But, not receiving the death penalty would have been absurd.

And anyway on the coward thing: is it really cowardly to not take a chance on the lives of five billion people? Even if it's .0001% that's literally how gambling works and the only reward was that he'd get to talk down to people about similar issues. Main universe kryptonite wouldn't work and if the pocket universe really held to pre-crisis, then they could just reproduce an army with Zaora.

[Ascended]

This is the most common point and forgive me if this sounds like a repeat but I think skipping those pages is completely understandable: it's built on a misunderstanding of the scene because the story is about Superman being judge, jury, and executioner. There's a fair argument about their threat level but that's not how execution works

You're right that it's about the weight of justice, and there's value in the idea that Clark was the 'last voice of justice in that universe' so the duty fell to him. It's a valid argument to make and I think it holds up, in a vacuum. The problem here is that, all too often, Clark's normal rogues put him in a position that's functionally the same. In the pocket zone, nobody was alive to bring justice to Zod. On earth-0, nobody else alive *can* bring justice to Brainiac, so shouldn't Clark be facing the same choice? No other hand but his can carry justice to these people. So what made the Zoners an exception, what made them different? Brainiac has destroyed countless planets and will never seek redemption, he's no less dangerous and the odds of his return are much higher, so why not kill him too? Or Hank Henshaw? All I can see is Clark's fear of the zoners. And killing out of fear isn't justice even if the end result looks the same.

Actually, Clark's killed both of those guys too. Brainiac 13 got pushed into the Big Bang, Henshaw got vibrated to pieces (an attempted kill, so partial credit) and then trapped in the Source Wall (which, again, I count as a 'kill' because some folks just don't die normally and that's as close as they get). But in both cases, it was the heat of battle and Clark had run out of options, which wasn't the case with the zoners.

And just because I think executing the Zoners was the 'wrong' call doesn't mean I think it shouldn't have happened. I'm fine with Clark not living up to the expectations of his own legend, and I enjoy it when he makes a mistake and has to deal with the consequences (we wouldn't have Exile without this, for example). And this is an interesting topic; what does a Superman do when he's the last authority left? How does he handle it when the role of executioner, which he so often avoids, is thrust upon him? It's a good question and worth exploring. But again, functionally, there's no real difference between this and any other extinction-level villain.

But as I said, I've never read the actual story. I've seen scans, probably the entire sequence honestly, and I've seen other stories reference it, but there might be context here I've missed in the actual comic. I'd say that if Clark did this for all the lives the zoners had taken, that could be justice. But my understanding is that, more than anything, Clark feared what they'd do if they escaped. He killed them to prevent what they might do, not to punish them for what they'd already done.

[kingaliencracker]

I agree with you 100 percent. Most folks (some of whom have posted here) miss the point of this argument: it's not that Superman can't kill, it's that he should not and should never be put into that situation as a character. It's simply not his archetype and is an issue that is better explored with other characters. For example, it was fitting that Peter Parker, rooted in Marvel's "world outside your window," face the realities of drug addiction through his best friend's struggles. It's an entirely different issue with Superman in DC's "a world that could exist in a distant, fantasy reality" to be forced to deal with the issue of capital punishment. No matter Byrne (or David Goyer or Hack Snyder's) reasons, they simply don't understand the unities of the character and his archetype and, thus, fail to understand why this is not the kind of story that is told with Superman. The same goes for "fans" who will push and then break the boundaries of logic to defend what cannot be defended.

If you think Superman should kill, go ahead and have teenaged Kara Zor-El get pregnant and decide to get an abortion.

However, the issue of capital punishment can and should be addressed in Superman's world, just not in this way. Perhaps someone close to him (NOT Batman or another superhero) takes a life or a villain is sentenced to death. Superman, considering all life as sacred, would have something to say about that and that's how you address such an issue with Superman.

Of course, those people who claim to know and understand Superman will continue to defend anything that "makes him cooler" or "more relatable," thus proving they neither know or understand the character.

I can't agree that Superman would consider all life sacred. I think that's a naive attitude for anyone to have, personally speaking. There is true evil in the real world, let alone the world of comic book universes. Not everyone deserves to be saved, and not everyone can be redeemed.

For me, Superman doesn't kill because he's the ultimate represenatation of truth and justice. As such, he brings people forward for courts to judge. He doesn't take matters into his own hands. That's not justice, that's authoritative. Also, his powers will usually allow him to find an alternative to killing, even if the odds are stacked against him (as they were in the instane of the Kryptonians prior to depowering them).

Again, that's my issue with the executions I think. The threat was over. It was Superman's responsibility to turn them over. If the courts couldn't do anything about it, then that's just the way it is. You lose the battle, win the war. But you don't take matters into your own hands.

[Kuwagaton]

You're right that it's about the weight of justice, and there's value in the idea that Clark was the 'last voice of justice in that universe' so the duty fell to him. It's a valid argument to make and I think it holds up, in a vacuum. The problem here is that, all too often, Clark's normal rogues put him in a position that's functionally the same. In the pocket zone, nobody was alive to bring justice to Zod. On earth-0, nobody else alive *can* bring justice to Brainiac, so shouldn't Clark be facing the same choice? No other hand but his can carry justice to these people. So what made the Zoners an exception, what made them different? Brainiac has destroyed countless planets and will never seek redemption, he's no less dangerous and the odds of his return are much higher, so why not kill him too? Or Hank Henshaw? All I can see is Clark's fear of the zoners. And killing out of fear isn't justice even if the end result looks the same.

Hank is immortal and in the case of Brainiac, Maxima did. Between Colu and New Genesis the attempts to stop him weren't successful, but Superman at least had a larger community of people who could carry out punishment and imprisonment. And between those, a handful of situations where Brainiac did appear to actually die.

The PU criminals were way too tough for him and caused more carnage in one outing than Brainiac really ever would. But I can still imagine he would have gotten a second opinion and valued it if they didn't, y'know, kill everyone.

[Ascended]

Hank is immortal and in the case of Brainiac, Maxima did. Between Colu and New Genesis the attempts to stop him weren't successful, but Superman at least had a larger community of people who could carry out punishment and imprisonment. And between those, a handful of situations where Brainiac did appear to actually die.

The PU criminals were way too tough for him and caused more carnage in one outing than Brainiac really ever would. But I can still imagine he would have gotten a second opinion and valued it if they didn't, y'know, kill everyone.

Totally agree with that. If there had been anyone else, Clark would've looked to them and taken their advice into consideration. There wasn't, so Clark did what he thought he had to. I don't disagree with his actions so much as his motivations. And to that end, I think it's more wrong for 'him' than wrong objectively. Most of the time when Clark kills, it's in the service of others, even when he's the pissed off red-eyed god he (mostly) kills (rare occurrence that it is) to save others. The PU, far as I understand it, was fear for the future not judgement for the past. And if Clark's a guy who believes that intention matters and not just the end result (and his behavior implies he is), then I think him killing out of fear is 'wrong.' I think that's what really drove Exile; not the killing itself but the reasons behind it. Clark chose the easy way. He was utterly justified in his judgement, but he decided people should die so his life could be simpler. He made the right choice for selfish reasons. Pragmatic understandable ones, but I think for Clark, the deep down 'why' he did it haunts him in a way other killings don't.

[Agent Z]

I'm not sure how we even go from Superman executing mass murderers to teenage Kara getting an abortion.

Most superhero fans don't know the difference between murder and killing in self-defense. Such ridiculous hyperbole is to be expected at this point.

[JBatmanFan05]

I'm not sure how we even go from Superman executing mass murderers to teenage Kara getting an abortion.

I think I understood what that poster (All Star) meant, he was simply sorta mocking Marvelizing or over-Marvelizing DC/Superman characters. I don't think he was really commenting on the issue of abortion (wasn't really intending to compare such an action to the PZ executions). These comic book superhero executions can be examined, interrogated from very different angles/perspectives, not just limited to morality of the fictional act itself.

[marhawkman]

Most superhero fans don't know the difference between murder and killing in self-defense. Such ridiculous hyperbole is to be expected at this point.

And this is why I disdain the "no-kill" rule that a lot of versions of Batman have. They have a 100% "never" rule.... that only applies to Humans.

[Doctor Know]

how many versions of Zod exist at this point? with the multiverse in mind, "does it matter" if any of them get killed?
considering the abilities of kryptonians under a yellow sun, morally unhinged folks like Zod are a permanent super-threat.

You know, I actually counted and list all the various Zods and their fates across media. See below and be amused at how much DC does not care about this character.

Musings about Zod:

If the letter V is for Vendetta. Then E should be "Expendable". Because that's what Zod is. The writers have no problem introducing Zod and then killing him off at the end of their story. Of the list below, you will note that 5 different Zods existed during the Post-Crisis continuity. Being an evil Superman isn't new. The Powers That Be have access to Ultraman (the Crime Syndicate), Bizarro, Cyborg Superman (Hank or Zor-El), Darkseid and evil versions of Clark to play with. With the exception of Bizarro (who dies frequently due to improper cloning techniques or cellular degradation), no other evil Superman character is treated as expendable as Zod is.

Superman II (1980) - Zod is depowered, thrown into a wall and down a bottomless cavern.

Superman vol 2 #22 (1988) - Supergirl Saga: Pre-Crisis Zod is executed by Superman using Green Kryptonite. This after Zod killed the entire populace of a parallel Earth and boasted about doing it again.

Action Comics #776 (2001) - Return to Krypton: A Zod from Krypton's past (before it blows up) is killed by Jor-El, when he sticks a trident into Zod's power armor. Before Zod can deliver the killing blow to Superman.

Action Comics #805 (2003) - The Zod from 1988 possess a Russian soldier and gains power to take revenge on Superman for killing him. He dies flying into Superman at full speed. Right as his own psuedo Kryptonian powers are neutralized.

Superman vol 2 #215 (2005) - For Tomorrow : This General Zod of undefined origins; abducts 1 million Metropolis citizens and transports them into the Phantom Zone. In an attempt to lure Superman there. He dies by allowing himself to be sucked into a Phantom Zone singularity as the region of the zone he and Superman were in collapsed.

Action Comics #845 (2007) - Last Son through War of the Supermen : Geoff Johns introduces the "real" General Zod of the post-Crisis on Infinite Earth's (1985) continuity. Ignoring all the ones before. This one is highly based on the Zod who appears in Superman II. As the story "Last Son" featured Richard Donner as a co-writer for the title. This Zod escaped the Zone 3 times, was imprisoned in the Zone 3 times, before Barry Flashpointed the universe in 2011.

Smallville CW (2007-2010) Season 6, 7, 8 and 9: General Zod's Phantom Zone spirit possesses Lex Luthor as a host as a way to escape the PZ imprisonment. Trapping Clark in the PZ in his place. Clark escapes and uses a Krytonian crystal to free Lex from possession, and send Zod's spirit back to the PZ.

Major Zod, a clone of the Zod created by a Kryptonian super macguffin, The Orb. Like the Codex in the DCEU, it contained a registry of citizens and could recreate important figures of Krypton when prompted. Major Zod also tried to take over the Earth but was thwarted by Clark, teleported off Earth and arrested by the Kandorians to be tried for his crimes.

Man of Steel (2013) - DCEU Zod was killed after his destroy all life on Earth plot was foiled.

New 52 Zod (2013) - Visually taking cues from MOS. This Zod would escape the Phantom Zone and basically menace the world. The writers don't seem to know what to do with him, except not put him back in the Phantom Zone. This Zod has fought Superman, Hal Jordan, Wonder Woman, and the Suicide Squad. He would later become a member of the Suicide Squad. Taking orders from Waller. How embarrassing.

Superman Earth One Vol 3 (2015) - Zod is killed by Alexa Luthor. Wife of Alexander Luthor. After he kills Lex and is about to kill Superman. He is depowered with a red sun gun by Lex and shot 4 times in the chest by Alexa with a revolver. Will the humiliation end?

Supergirl CW (2018) - Season 3 episode 12 "For the Good". Superman is stated to have killed his Zod in a past adventure.

Superman and Lois (2021) - Season 1 episode 12 "Through The Valley of Death". The deceased Zod's consciousness possess Superman and is later destroyed by Superman. With John Henry's help.

Flash (2023) - Zod finally wins one. But he succeeds in killing both baby Kal and adult Kara.

[Jon Clark]

You know, I actually counted and list all the various Zods and their fates across media. See below and be amused at how much DC does not care about this character.

Musings about Zod:

If the letter V is for Vendetta. Then E should be "Expendable". Because that's what Zod is. The writers have no problem introducing Zod and then killing him off at the end of their story. Of the list below, you will note that 5 different Zods existed during the Post-Crisis continuity. Being an evil Superman isn't new. The Powers That Be have access to Ultraman (the Crime Syndicate), Bizarro, Cyborg Superman (Hank or Zor-El), Darkseid and evil versions of Clark to play with. With the exception of Bizarro (who dies frequently due to improper cloning techniques or cellular degradation), no other evil Superman character is treated as expendable as Zod is.

Superman II (1980) - Zod is depowered, thrown into a wall and down a bottomless cavern.

Superman vol 2 #22 (1988) - Supergirl Saga: Pre-Crisis Zod is executed by Superman using Green Kryptonite. This after Zod killed the entire populace of a parallel Earth and boasted about doing it again.

Action Comics #776 (2001) - Return to Krypton: A Zod from Krypton's past (before it blows up) is killed by Jor-El, when he sticks a trident into Zod's power armor. Before Zod can deliver the killing blow to Superman.

Action Comics #805 (2003) - The Zod from 1988 possess a Russian soldier and gains power to take revenge on Superman for killing him. He dies flying into Superman at full speed. Right as his own psuedo Kryptonian powers are neutralized.

Superman vol 2 #215 (2005) - For Tomorrow : This General Zod of undefined origins; abducts 1 million Metropolis citizens and transports them into the Phantom Zone. In an attempt to lure Superman there. He dies by allowing himself to be sucked into a Phantom Zone singularity as the region of the zone he and Superman were in collapsed.

Action Comics #845 (2007) - Last Son through War of the Supermen : Geoff Johns introduces the "real" General Zod of the post-Crisis on Infinite Earth's (1985) continuity. Ignoring all the ones before. This one is highly based on the Zod who appears in Superman II. As the story "Last Son" featured Richard Donner as a co-writer for the title. This Zod escaped the Zone 3 times, was imprisoned in the Zone 3 times, before Barry Flashpointed the universe in 2011.

Man of Steel (2013) - DCEU Zod was killed after his destroy all life on Earth plot was foiled.

New 52 Zod (2013) - Visually taking cues from MOS. This Zod would escape the Phantom Zone and basically menace the world. The writers don't seem to know what to do with him, except not put him back in the Phantom Zone. This Zod has fought Superman, Hal Jordan, Wonder Woman, and the Suicide Squad. He would later become a member of the Suicide Squad. Taking orders from Waller. How embarrassing.

Superman Earth One Vol 3 (2015) - Zod is killed by Alexa Luthor. Wife of Alexander Luthor. After he kills Lex and is about to kill Superman. He is depowered with a red sun gun by Lex and shot 4 times in the chest by Alexa with a revolver. Will the humiliation end?

Supergirl CW (2018) - Season 3 episode 12 "For the Good". Superman is stated to have killed his Zod in a past adventure.

Superman and Lois (2021) - Season 1 episode 12 "Through The Valley of Death". The deceased Zod's consciousness possess Superman and is later destroyed by Superman. With John Henry's help.

Flash (2023) - Zod finally wins one. But he succeeds in killing both baby Kal and adult Kara.

You missed the Smallville version (both of them).

I blame the movie (Superman II) for both making Zod the only recognizable other Kryptonian name the general public knows and for making him the "one and done" threat he has become. Without the movie raising Zod to public recognition maybe we could have had some variation (Zod, Jax-Ur, Kru-El, a solo Faora) in kryptonian opponents rather than the same guy with the same motive every incarnation.

[gwhh]

https://www.cbr.com/times-superman-k...rican-soldiers

[Doctor Know]

You missed the Smallville version (both of them).

Thanks for the tip, mate. I knew I was forgetting something.

I blame the movie (Superman II) for both making Zod the only recognizable other Kryptonian name the general public knows and for making him the "one and done" threat he has become. Without the movie raising Zod to public recognition maybe we could have had some variation (Zod, Jax-Ur, Kru-El, a solo Faora) in kryptonian opponents rather than the same guy with the same motive every incarnation.

Zod is in the exact same position as Khan from Star Trek is. Before Superman II, Zod was a second tier Superboy villain. While Faora (Ursa) was the murderous Femme Fatal who was the Superman villain. Quex-Ul (Non) had maybe a handful of appearances. He doesn't even register for me. Zod stars in one movie and he shoots to the top as an A-List Superman villain. One that has been locked in playing out the same story over and over ever since.

Same with Khan Noonien Singh. In the original Star Trek, Kirk toppled a lot of would-be despots in the 3 seasons of the show. Khan appeared in one episode of the show and is really no different from most of the show's villains of the week. One movie platform later and all of a sudden Khan is THE greatest Star Trek villain. So great that the powers that be can't stop trying to emulate his movie's story in their attempt to recapture the lightning in a bottle of the original 1982 release.

Picture this. There are 13 Star Trek movies and 7 of them are about guys wanting revenge against the crew of the Enterprise. Of the 7, six were made in a row.

First Contact (1996) - Picard wants revenge against the Borg. While the Borg Queen seeks revenge against Picard and crew for them thwarting her previous attempt to conqueror Earth.

Insurrection (1998) - The Son’a and Ru’afo want revenge against the Ba’ku. Along the way they decide to take their frustrations out on the crew of the Enterprise.

Nemesis (2002) - Shinzon wants revenge against Picard for existing and for his life being a living hell.

Star Trek (2009) - Nero wants revenge on Spock and the Federation for Romulus being destroyed in the future.

Into Darkness (2013) - Khan wants revenge against Starfleet. Kirk wants revenge against Khan for killing Pike and dozens of other people.

Beyond (2016) - Krull wants revenge against the Earth and the Federation for going soft after the Xindi and Romulan wars.


All lift elements from Wrath of Khan in some way, shape or form.

Battle in Nebulas:
Mutara: Wrath of Khan
Briar Patch - Insurrection
Bassen Rift - Nemesis
Death Cloud - Beyond

Quoting Moby Dick or lines from Wrath of Khan:
Wrath of Khan
First Contact
Into Darkness


Planet Annihilating Super Weapons:
Genesis Torpedo - Wrath of Khan
Son’a Collector - Insurrection
Thalaron Weapon - Nemesis
Red Matter - Star Trek
Abronath - Beyond

A character yelling a single line with rage and frustration:
KHAN!!! - Wrath of Khan
NOOOOO!!! - First Contact
AAAAAaaa!… - Insurrection
SPOCK!!! - Star Trek
¡¡¡KHAN!!! - Into Darkness

Heroes dying to save their ship:
Spock - Wrath of Khan
Data - Nemesis
Kirk - Into Darkness


Paramount has since given up on making Star Trek movies. I don't blame them. The general audience has caught on to their game of just remaking the same movie over and over to a series of diminishing returns. Six in a row. Six in an EFFING ROW!
------------------------------------------------------------

Zod is the same way. A one hit wonder from the 80s, who the writers can't figure out what to do with. The fact that we had 5 different Zods in the Post-Crisis continuity is ridiculous on it's face.

[marhawkman]

You missed the Smallville version (both of them).

I blame the movie (Superman II) for both making Zod the only recognizable other Kryptonian name the general public knows and for making him the "one and done" threat he has become. Without the movie raising Zod to public recognition maybe we could have had some variation (Zod, Jax-Ur, Kru-El, a solo Faora) in kryptonian opponents rather than the same guy with the same motive every incarnation.

Enh, at least DCAU had Jax-Ur and Mala.

[kingaliencracker]

So, I've been going back and re-reading the post-Exile stories. It's made pretty clear that the lesson Superman learned from the executions is that he will find a better way/never kill again. There are at least two occasions in which Superman specifically says "never again" or similar in response to idea of killing.

Now, we know later on that Superman kills Doomsday in battle (forgivable IMO) and Cyborg Superman after gaining his powers back (definitely questionable). But there's no question that he's adopted a strict no-killing code following the executions and Exile.