The double standard regarding shazam family and Wonder Woman

[WonderLight789]

Post crisis shazam/captain marvel Durability was higher then superman and wonder woman.
Post flashpoint/rebirth shazam i am not sure if it's higher then superman or not.

Going back to shazam's post crisis strength.
It was equal to superman but i am not sure if the currrent canon version is equal to post flashpoint/rebirth superman.
He could be weaker but post flashpoint black adam's strength is equal to superman.

Post Crisis shazam was never equal to sm based on feats. HGe never matched sm in raw power only. Post flashpoint shazam is far weaker than post crisis. He is not as strong as WW. Also WW already fought black adam in current continuity and beat him. And SM also beat both shazam and black adam pretty easily in current continuity.

[j9ac9k]

This isn't the "Convince WonderLight789 that Shazam is stronger than WW" thread, but you're treating it like it is. The question posed was "why is there a double-standard?" which I think people are answering, but you're taking every person's opinion or explanation as though it justifies the double-standard, rather than explaining how it could have happened. I gave my explanation and it's not meant to convince you of anything, just propose one possibility for the environment of how it came about. If you want to just keep going on that the double-standard is unfair, have at it, but you might as well change the thread title.

[WonderLight789]

This isn't the "Convince WonderLight789 that Shazam is stronger than WW" thread, but you're treating it like it is. The question posed was "why is there a double-standard?" which I think people are answering, but you're taking every person's opinion or explanation as though it justifies the double-standard, rather than explaining how it could have happened. I gave my explanation and it's not meant to convince you of anything, just propose one possibility for the environment of how it came about. If you want to just keep going on that the double-standard is unfair, have at it, but you might as well change the thread title.

But you didn't answer why there is a double standard. You talked about a TV show from the 70s. Which had limited budget and bad special effects. So obviusly her power was not going to be great in that. And then you talked about movies. But in those live action movies, she didn't have inferior feats of power compared to shazam. So how come you view shazam as an equal to sm based on those movies, but WW being weaker than shazam?

[Riv86672]

That's all anecdotal and I won't debate you on that. It makes sense you'd want to hang your hat on evidence, but I'm talking about perception rather than precedent. (hence my disclaimer to start) And imo, perception is a big part of the explanation to the question posed by this thread topic. This isn't a "who is stronger" thread, it's about why WW is written or seen a certain way, despite evidence to the contrary.

^^^I still say durability.
WW simply can’t take the edged weapon/energy/blunt force trauma someone like Shazam can. She can be as strong and fast as a lot of characters but she can’t tank the same amount of damage hence, she’s not as “powerful”.

[WonderLight789]

^^^I still say durability.
WW simply can’t take the edged weapon/energy/blunt force trauma someone like Shazam can. She can be as strong and fast as a lot of characters but she can’t tank the same amount of damage hence, she’s not as “powerful”.

Durability is only one factor. And she is not less durable than shazam.

[Riv86672]

So is this thread just so you can get responses from ppl then disagree w. them?
Thought you were looking for opinions.

I stay out of the versus forum so as to avoid conversations like this.

I’m not going to post durability (or lack thereof) scans or anything like that.
I gave you my best guess as to why there’s a “double standard” between WW and CM. Take it, leave it, ignore it, it’s all good.

[WonderLight789]

So is this thread just so you can get responses from ppl then disagree w. them?
Thought you were looking for opinions.

I stay out of the versus forum so as to avoid conversations like this.

I’m not going to post durability (or lack thereof) scans or anything like that.
I gave you my best guess as to why there’s a “double standard” between WW and CM. Take it, leave it, ignore it, it’s all good.

This is not a battle thread. But it is important to notice that your point has some problems. Because She has versions that are bulletproof. Like current one. And she has never shown to have less blunt force, energy attacks duirability than shazam.

And on top of that. Durability is only one factor. But The notion i hear from certain people saying he is above her. They mean strength and speed and everything else. Yet it doesn't make any sense. When she has just as many powers from the gods as he does. Including strength, speed etc. So how do you explain the notion that her speed, strength, intellect, stamina etc are inferior to his, like some people say?

[j9ac9k]

But you didn't answer why there is a double standard. You talked about a TV show from the 70s. Which had limited budget and bad special effects. So obviusly her power was not going to be great in that. And then you talked about movies. But in those live action movies, she didn't have inferior feats of power compared to shazam. So how come you view shazam as an equal to sm based on those movies, but WW being weaker than shazam?

That's not all of what I said but it's clear you only hear what you want. Enjoy reiterating your point over and over.

[WonderLight789]

That's not all of what I said but it's clear you only hear what you want. Enjoy reiterating your point over and over.

This is literally what you said.

''Despite instances where we're told or shown Wonder Woman is top-tier powerful, she can't escape her most iconic presentations: she needs bracelets to deflect bullets, she needs a jet to fly, she uses weapons rather than being the weapon, she fights regular people hand-to-hand. (the tv show and movies only perpetuates this and mass media presentations matter) We're not going to see Wonder Woman fly around the world to turn back time - the climax of her latest movie was that she could fly. Superman starts with him flying. Side-to-side comparisons with Shazam happen less often, but most people see him and Superman as equal or close to. Diana is generally not depicted performing the same feats. WW can be powerful and skilled and magical, but if we're talking "power," doing Superman level things is not the prevailing imagery of her. Even in the movie that everyone loves, one of the most famous images of her is holding a shield to deflect bullets. Superman letting bullets bounce off him is just a Tuesday morning''

You said her appearances from a dated tv show, and her live action movie appearances are the reason why some people don't think she is powerful. Even though shazam movie feats are no better than hers.

[j9ac9k]

This is literally what you said.

''Despite instances where we're told or shown Wonder Woman is top-tier powerful, she can't escape her most iconic presentations: she needs bracelets to deflect bullets, she needs a jet to fly, she uses weapons rather than being the weapon, she fights regular people hand-to-hand. (the tv show and movies only perpetuates this and mass media presentations matter) We're not going to see Wonder Woman fly around the world to turn back time - the climax of her latest movie was that she could fly. Superman starts with him flying. Side-to-side comparisons with Shazam happen less often, but most people see him and Superman as equal or close to. Diana is generally not depicted performing the same feats. WW can be powerful and skilled and magical, but if we're talking "power," doing Superman level things is not the prevailing imagery of her. Even in the movie that everyone loves, one of the most famous images of her is holding a shield to deflect bullets. Superman letting bullets bounce off him is just a Tuesday morning''

You said her appearances from a dated tv show, and her live action movie appearances are the reason why some people don't think she is powerful. Even though shazam movie feats are no better than hers.

This is so frustrating. You quoted me but clearly the actual words don't land. I said, "the tv show and movies only perpetuates this and mass media presentations matter." Mass media PERPETUATES the imagery that was created in the COMIC BOOKS. I didn't say it was "the reason why some people don't think she is powerful." But it doesn't matter what I say anyway, because you can always fall back on your stock reasons for why none of it matters other than what you think. When someone offers and opinions, you ask for evidence, when someone presents evidence, it's not good enough or you retreat to the creator's original intention, as though that's the most important thing so the actual stories don't matter anyway, because they're wrong.

[WonderLight789]

This is so frustrating. You quoted me but clearly the actual words don't land. I said, "the tv show and movies only perpetuates this and mass media presentations matter." Mass media PERPETUATES the imagery that was created in the COMIC BOOKS. I didn't say it was "the reason why some people don't think she is powerful." But it doesn't matter what I say anyway, because you can always fall back on your stock reasons for why none of it matters other than what you think. When someone offers and opinions, you ask for evidence, when someone presents evidence, it's not good enough or you retreat to the creator's original intention, as though that's the most important thing so the actual stories don't matter anyway, because they're wrong.

The tv show was 50 years ago. And way too limited on budget and special effects. Still, she was doing the normal stuff that super powered characters were seen doing in shows of that era. And how is the movies portraying her as weak compared to shazam? She literally has the same type of speed, strength feats, she flies and can control lightning like him too.

[Rightoya]

I think this thread full of wild claims and misformations just underlines the probably sadly true answer, it's probably still mostly just sexism, which would be not very surprising considering that the history of comicbooks is in large parts also a history of sexism.

Because they Superman and Captain Marvel/Shazam have been depicted that way throughout publication, while her being equal or superior to Marvel has never been depicted consistently (if at all).

When was Captain Marvel consistently portrayed as superior to Wonder Woman? He only jobs less to Superman, but going by that standard, he is also the only 1 of the 3 who is not inferior to Batman.

Probably because Captain Marvel stories have more ridiculous feats compared to Diana just being a martial artist.

Are you comparing Mod era Wonder Woman to a Captain Marvel that didn't even existed during that time period, or from where are you getting the ridiculous idea that Wonder Woman would be just a martial artist or even particularly often portrayed like a martial artists?

I mean isn't Wonder Woman supposed to be Superman level too? It's just that the books portrays Shazam's god powers better than Wonder Woman's.

About what books are we even talking here, the Bronze age or elseworlds maybe?

[Rightoya]

Current canon shazam like current canon superman have near limitless super strength and strength wise they are equal.

What are you even basing this on?

He does have limitless stamina,so he has one power that is limitless but most of his powers are not. In comics shazam has beaten superman,tie superman, and superman has beaten him.

Literally all of this is also true for Wonder Woman.

Post flashpoint/New 52 Shazam Hercules is stronger then woman woman by the way.

Hercules was never stronger than any not depowered and not elseworlds Wonder Woman, and new 52 Shazam was incredibly unimpressive to a much more extreme degree than the already unimpressive new 52 Wonder Woman, heck he only had extremely close competitions like a race to the Watchtower and was doing well in fights with a Wonder Woman who always had her bracelets own, which means Wonder Woman's strength and speed were always drastically lowered anytime they even interacted with each other.

The following describes my experience as a comic book reader in general and person in the world who experiences pop-culture and not meant to be definitive. This is my perception: Despite instances where we're told or shown Wonder Woman is top-tier powerful, she can't escape her most iconic presentations: she needs bracelets to deflect bullets

That part i agree with.

she needs a jet to fly

I have almost never seen anyone even mention that in a not jokingly context, and i very much doubt that the majority of people even knows that she had an invisible jet outside of Wonder Woman 1984.

she uses weapons rather than being the weapon

Is Marvel's Thor for example considered to be weak nowadays?

she fights regular people hand-to-hand.

She rarely ever does that, except you actually just mean the 1970s tv series and live-action movies?

the tv show

Ok, but that is almost like saying that Batman is still perceived as a goofball with shark repellent.

and movies only perpetuates this and mass media presentations matter)

That part i agree with too, the movies and especially Justice League did an extreme poor job to portray Wonder Woman properly.

We're not going to see Wonder Woman fly around the world to turn back time - the climax of her latest movie was that she could fly.

We will also not see Superman or any other live-action flying brick do that again, especially not Shazam, because nobody is basing these characters on the Silver age anymore.

Superman starts with him flying. Side-to-side comparisons with Shazam happen less often, but most people see him and Superman as equal or close to. Diana is generally not depicted performing the same feats.

Diana generally performs far more impressive feats than Shazam in the comics and even to a lesser degree in the movies since decades by now, and during new 52 as her gap to Superman was the biggest, Shazam was performing the least impressive feats of his entire career and had no excuse of constantly having his strength and speed supressed by magical bracelets like Wonder Woman.

WW can be powerful and skilled and magical, but if we're talking "power," doing Superman level things is not the prevailing imagery of her. Even in the movie that everyone loves, one of the most famous images of her is holding a shield to deflect bullets. Superman letting bullets bounce off him is just a Tuesday morning.

I will again agree that the DCEU did a lot of harm in that regard, and outright portrayed Wonder Woman as a pathetic weakling, but then again DCEU Shazam was also just a pathetic weakling and even got further undermined by Rock Adam's ego-trip.

[Rightoya]

Can you back that up?

You could just read any respect thread of them for the modern age, because in the modern age Shazam feats come not even remotely close to Superman's, and are also outright worse than Wonder Woman's.

Because in the Golden Age, Captain Marvel was the first to fly under his own power, shortly before Superman and long before WW. Their feats were at most comparable, if not favorable towards Marvel.

Yeah that is true, but flight has not much to do with how strong characters are, or else Hawkgirl would be stronger than Aquaman, and most people have not even read the Golden age comics.

Silver Age Superman riffs his feats after Captain Marvel

Silver age Superman became much stronger than Golden age Captain Marvel was, so i am not even sure what you are talking about?

and in the Bronze Age the two of them teaming up and/or fighting was treated as a big deal with it being ambiguous on who was stronger. That actually even made it into the 90s in Morrisons JLA where Marvel was able to punch Superman unconscious.

The Bronze age was literally the only time Captain Marvel has an actual case for being comparable to Superman while Wonder Woman is not, but that was also just because Bronze age Wonder Woman was quite pathetic and almost never did anything of note.

They didn't nerf her. You're just overstating how powerful she was in the Golden Age, they just never raised her past that level when they moved beyond.

That is just an outright lie, and i am very sure you actually know that, they did not just nerf her they even outright took away all of her powers and after that just slowly started to even portray her like a big superhero again:

https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qi...34c07acd0-pjlq

Also, in another post you talk about "throughout DC history," but you want to exclude Silver and Bronze Age. You can't have it both ways.

Captain Marvel did not even existed during the Silver age, so the Silver age is obviously out of this comparison, except you want to talk about inofficial fan-stories.

I'm not going to go back and forth on this - sure, there's evidence that demonstrates the ceiling of WW's power, but there's certainly evidence for Shazam as well, where you can't just write it off as head canon:
https://comicvine.gamespot.com/billy...-feats-660394/

I don't understand what that very lacking respect thread is even supposed to prove? All i see is Shazam punching some strong people, here is Wonder Woman punching some strong people:



https://imgur.com/a/aOyR7

https://imgur.com/a/yULsi

https://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl...MyggegUIARCNAQ

statements of how strong he allegedly is, here are some statements for Wonder Woman:



https://imgur.com/a/iFjpW

https://i.imgur.com/ivavfg9.jpeg

https://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl...cQMygBegQIARBS

Him blitzing some people or tagging some fast people, here is Wonder Woman doing that too:



https://i.imgur.com/hR6Wwjp.jpeg

https://imgur.com/a/e9FH2

https://imgur.com/a/JutpM

and so on, there is nothing truly extraordinary in that respect thread, except someone seriously wants to make the case that Shazam would be anywhere close to the Spectre?

I'm not the one wanting to go back to basics. That would be you by citing Marston. But the stone cold fact is, she hasn't been in Marston's hands for the majority of her publication history, for the majority of it she's been under DC and they are pretty consistent with feeling that Kryptonians are the strongest.

If there is 1 thing DC definitively is not and never was, than that is being consistent, and the last time Kryptonians were actually the strongest was in the Silver age.

And even in the Golden Age, people of average strength could knock her out with a blow to the base of her skull, which is not something that you would see happen to any of the Supers.

Are you seriously saying that Supers did not job or had bad showings before the Crisis? Because i don't think struggling to lift a heavy woman for example is a very good look for the even stronger Silver age Superman:

https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qi...943cd79d5ed-lq

Silver Age Supergirl at her peak was stronger than all versions of WW.

I can literally name at least 5 versions of Wonder Woman who could each turn Silver age Supergirl into a teaspoon with a mere thought, and the strongest versions of Supergirl don't even operate anywhere near the same level of existence like the strongest versions of Wonder Woman.

So I'm fine with Kryptonians being stronger than her.

Absolutely nothing about that would be fine, all the sexism and hogwash with Superman was and is bad enough already, but to make Wonder Woman inferior to Superman's entire goddamned race would be just the ultimate disrespect and the cherry on top of all the other reasons why DC should have lost the rights on Wonder Woman long ago anyway.

Maybe it's a double standard, but why constantly talk about it?

Do you realize that double standards are generally something very bad?

The question posed was "why is there a double-standard?" which I think people are answering

By using said double standards and spreading misinformations?

but you're taking every person's opinion or explanation as though it justifies the double-standard, rather than explaining how it could have happened.

You have tried to explain that, even though i still don't understand the point of that respect thread, but other people in this thread have not just tried to do that.

If you want to just keep going on that the double-standard is unfair, have at it, but you might as well change the thread title.

Double standards are per definition unfair, or else they would be no double standards.

[phonogram12]

This is so frustrating.

Welcome to any thread started by this guy.