The double standard regarding shazam family and Wonder Woman

[SiegePerilous02]

Maybe that aspect is the appeal for a sect of nerds, but beating up other heroes doesn't explain the popularity of stories like "Year One", "Long Halloween", "Killing Joke", or "Death In the Family", and "Knightfall", another popular story, is famous for him getting beaten up.

It also doesn't explain the appeal of the the Burton Films, the Animated Series, The Nolan Trilogy, or the Arkham games.

You honestly don't think the high profile, classic story that kick-started his rise to being the most popular DC hero that features him beating up the last top dog didn't play a big role?

[The Darknight Detective]

You honestly don't think the high profile, classic story that kick-started his rise to being the most popular DC hero that features him beating up the last top dog didn't play a big role?

The story definitely was the template for Batman's future popularity and helped erase the campy Batman model for good from most people's memories. If the scene you referred to hadn't been in the story, though, Bruce would be just as popular anyway.

[SiegePerilous02]

The story definitely was the template for Batman's future popularity and helped erase the campy Batman model for good from most people's memories. If the scene you referred to hadn't been in the story, though, Bruce would be just as popular anyway.

Would he though? Over Superman specifically in DC's eyes?

Obviously I was using hyperbole in my earlier statement, but it can't be argued that Batman is now #1 over Superman, and unlike a lot of other examples in such shifts, we can pinpoint exactly where one of the key moments happened that lead to it.

Supermans popularity was fading (relatively) at the time, and he needed a refresh. But I don't think him becoming top dog again would be the hilarious pipedream it is now if it weren't for the combo of events that included Batman beating him up in the high profile work that redefined the entire genre Superman started.

[Phoenixx9]

I mean, I guess we could look at it like:

Superman: The World's strongest man from another planet

Shazam: The World's Mightiest Mortal

Wonder Woman: The World's most powerful Immortal

If there were categories for strength, all 3 would be in the same top-tier.

[The Darknight Detective]

Would he though? Over Superman specifically in DC's eyes?

Obviously I was using hyperbole in my earlier statement, but it can't be argued that Batman is now #1 over Superman, and unlike a lot of other examples in such shifts, we can pinpoint exactly where one of the key moments happened that lead to it.

Supermans popularity was fading (relatively) at the time, and he needed a refresh. But I don't think him becoming top dog again would be the hilarious pipedream it is now if it weren't for the combo of events that included Batman beating him up in the high profile work that redefined the entire genre Superman started.

Actually, the whole boy scout crap that was perpetuated in the movies is where, despite the success of most of those films, Clark was deemed uncool.

[The Darknight Detective]

Would he though? Over Superman specifically in DC's eyes?

Obviously I was using hyperbole in my earlier statement, but it can't be argued that Batman is now #1 over Superman, and unlike a lot of other examples in such shifts, we can pinpoint exactly where one of the key moments happened that lead to it.

Supermans popularity was fading (relatively) at the time, and he needed a refresh. But I don't think him becoming top dog again would be the hilarious pipedream it is now if it weren't for the combo of events that included Batman beating him up in the high profile work that redefined the entire genre Superman started.

Actually, the whole boy scout crap that was perpetuated in the movies is where, despite the success of most of those films, Clark was deemed uncool.

[SiegePerilous02]

Actually, the whole boy scout crap that was perpetuated in the movies is where, despite the success of most of those films, Clark was deemed uncool.

That certainly played a huge factor. But we're not just talking about him being deemed uncool, we're talking about the need for Batman to be viewed as the cooler one in their dynamic and how that lead to Batman taking his spot as the flagship character. And how when they subsequently ever get into conflict, Batmans the cooler one with the moral high ground who could totally take out Superman with enough prep time.

All this to say, in general fans wanting their favorite heroes to beat up other heroes for a boost is obnoxious- but Bat fans are *really* the last people who should criticize the trend considering how much he owes to Frank Miller

[The Darknight Detective]

That certainly played a huge factor. But we're not just talking about him being deemed uncool, we're talking about the need for Batman to be viewed as the cooler one in their dynamic and how that lead to Batman taking his spot as the flagship character.

But if Superman had been considered cooler and less a boy scout, Miller wouldn't have had knocked him in the first place. You're really talking about a symptom than the actual cause of his displacement. Of course, Clark never was as uncool as Bruce was to the average person like he was during the '70s and until '89 due to the TV show.

Since they are my two favorite superheroes and for longer than a half century now, I don't want either one diminished.

[SiegePerilous02]

But if Superman had been considered cooler and less a boy scout, Miller wouldn't have had knocked him in the first place.

I think that's overly simplistic. As much as the coolness factor of Superman had faded and he was starting to be seen as outdated, he was still the undisputed #1 flagship character that built the House of DC. If Miller wanted to position Batman in that role, you take down the one who holds it currently in a flashy, visible way. See Al Pachino's entire speech in "Once Upon a Time in Hollywood."

You're really talking about a symptom than the actual cause of his displacement. Of course, Clark never was as uncool as Bruce was to the average person like he was during the '70s and until '89 due to the TV show.

Of course it's only one symptom (I'd say the Byrne reboot, while hot at the time, had some of the worst long term impacts on his viability), but it's certainly not a small sympton.

And Bruce being seen as even less cool than Superman at the time is a pretty good motivator for Miller to have him kick Superman's ass in an attempt to "give Batman his balls back."

Since they are my two favorite superheroes and for longer than a half century now, I don't want either one diminished.

They're two of my favorites too, but I don't think it can be seriously argued that Superman hasn't been diminished in favor of Batman since the 80s. if not consistently, then at least periodically.

[The Darknight Detective]

I think that's overly simplistic. As much as the coolness factor of Superman had faded and he was starting to be seen as outdated, he was still the undisputed #1 flagship character that built the House of DC. If Miller wanted to position Batman in that role, you take down the one who holds it currently in a flashy, visible way. See Al Pachino's entire speech in "Once Upon a Time in Hollywood."

It never would have happened in the main continuity back then, but an Elseworld story is a different story. But once Batman took the top spot...

Of course it's only one symptom (I'd say the Byrne reboot, while hot at the time, had some of the worst long term impacts on his viability), but it's certainly not a small sympton.

A symptom is still a symptom however big it is. Now the Byrne reboot, OTOH, can be blamed as a cause if not the biggest cause for Supe's decline, IMO.

And Bruce being seen as even less cool than Superman at the time is a pretty good motivator for Miller to have him kick Superman's ass in an attempt to "give Batman his balls back."

Without a doubt. Personally, though, I dislike the whole Superman aspect in the story, FWIW.

They're two of my favorites too, but I don't think it can be seriously argued that Superman hasn't been diminished in favor of Batman since the 80s. if not consistently, then at least periodically.

If you meant to type "has been diminished", I would also agree. However, if Clark rises to the top again, Bruce better start hiding.

[TheBatman]

You honestly don't think the high profile, classic story that kick-started his rise to being the most popular DC hero that features him beating up the last top dog didn't play a big role?

You honestly think that's more of a factor to his continued success than the multiple successful stories, tv shows, video games and movies I listed, the latter 3 having more of an influence/impact than comics, that don't play into that aspect of the character?

The idea that Batman needs to beat up Superman to be considered cool is silly. Batman in DKR has plenty cool moments without the Superman battle.

[SiegePerilous02]

It never would have happened in the main continuity back then, but an Elseworld story is a different story. But once Batman took the top spot...

Elseworld or not, we've seen that a story's impact isn't limited by canon status.

A symptom is still a symptom however big it is. Now the Byrne reboot, OTOH, can be blamed as a cause if not the biggest cause for Supe's decline, IMO.

Lol I'm happy to spread the blame around.

Without a doubt. Personally, though, I dislike the whole Superman aspect in the story, FWIW.

I believe you.

If you meant to type "has been diminished", I would also agree. However, if Clark rises to the top again, Bruce better start hiding.

Oh if only....

You honestly think that's more of a factor to his continued success than the multiple successful stories, tv shows, video games and movies I listed, the latter 3 having more of an influence/impact than comics, that don't play into that aspect of the character?

You mean all those things, some of which have openly cited TDKR as a partial inspiration and rode the wave of the impact it had to create even more waves?

The idea that Batman needs to beat up Superman to be considered cool is silly. Batman in DKR has plenty cool moments without the Superman battle.

Yet the most talked about aspect of it is Batman beating up Superman. Any hypotheticals of how big it would be without that scene are pointless, because it's here and it was huge.

Like I said, Batman fans are the last group who get to point out how silly the "heroes beating up other heroes for popularity" thing is. Glass houses, etc.

[j9ac9k]

I just think it's funny how people have bought into the idea that Batman "beat" Superman in DKR. People want to blame Miller, but from the story itself, it's pretty clear Clark was trying his best not to hurt an old man while Bruce just kept attacking him screaming, "I beat you!!" (I'm exaggerating, but that's essentially what happened)

[SiegePerilous02]

I just think it's funny how people have bought into the idea that Batman "beat" Superman in DKR. People want to blame Miller, but from the story itself, it's pretty clear Clark was trying his best not to hurt an old man while Bruce just kept attacking him screaming, "I beat you!!" (I'm exaggerating, but that's essentially what happened)

I mean, that's what *I* think happened, but comic book fan culture as a whole sadly took away something else from the scene. And Batman's reaped some of the benefits of it for quite some time

[TheBatman]

Yet the most talked about aspect of it is Batman beating up Superman.

For who? The niche audience of diehard comic fandom?

Like I said, Batman fans are the last group who get to point out how silly the "heroes beating up other heroes for popularity" thing is. Glass houses, etc.

You...do understand that people like Batman for all sorts of reasons right? And you do understand that there are Batman fans who would be Batman fans regardless of whether he was DC's biggest cash cow or not.

Not every Batfan likes Batman because he beats up other heroes, so it's perfectly fine for them to point out that yeah, heroes beating up heroes for popularity is silly.

And you're calling other people's views overly simplistic?

I just think it's funny how people have bought into the idea that Batman "beat" Superman in DKR. People want to blame Miller, but from the story itself, it's pretty clear Clark was trying his best not to hurt an old man while Bruce just kept attacking him screaming, "I beat you!!" (I'm exaggerating, but that's essentially what happened)

Thank you for pointing out another reason why this line of argument has been goofy.

In the most well known instances of "Bat god", it's pretty clear that Superman is either holding back, and it's made obvious that Batman could only last so long against him. And then you have something like "Tower of Babel", where not only is he not the one to use his contingency plans, his plans don't even succeed.