The double standard regarding shazam family and Wonder Woman

[SiegePerilous02]

For who? The niche audience of diehard comic fandom?




You...do understand that people like Batman for all sorts of reasons right? And you do understand that there are Batman fans who would be Batman fans regardless of whether he was DC's biggest cash cow or not.

Not every Batfan likes Batman because he beats up other heroes, so it's perfectly fine for them to point out that yeah, heroes beating up heroes for popularity is silly.

And you're calling other people's views overly simplistic?




Thank you for pointing out another reason why this line of argument has been goofy.

In the most well known instances of "Bat god", it's pretty clear that Superman is either holding back, and it's made obvious that Batman could only last so long against him. And then you have something like "Tower of Babel", where not only is he not the one to use his contingency plans, his plans don't even succeed.

In addition to having a big impact on the medium and industry (alongside Watchmen), TDKR is still an evergreen title that casuals outside the niche of diehards is more likely to read than other graphic novels. More than just the niche audience has been exposed to Batman kicking Superman's ass.

Yes, people like Batman for multiple reasons. But I'm not interested in some hypothetical alternate timeline where he isnt the cash cow, because in actual reality he is. It started with TDKR, and has evolved to feature stuff like JLU and Injustice or parts of Snyder's DCEU where Superman gets to be made evil or brainwashed and Batman has to stand against him. And often gets to be the incorruptible one with the moral high ground. It's not all there is, but it's occasionally recurring enough to be noticeable

So since it continues off and on to this day, yeah: Batman fans calling the idea silly always comes across as a bit hypocritical.

The reality of Bat-God situations doesn't really matter past a certain point. The intentions of "Tower of Babel" are one thing, lots of fanboys still came away thinking Batman could beat the JL after it. It's not the only story of Waid's that's guilty of this (see also: Wonder Woman after Kingdom Come). Once meme culture takes off, reality and nuance fall by the wayside.

[TheBatman]

In addition to having a big impact on the medium and industry (alongside Watchmen), TDKR is still an evergreen title that casuals outside the niche of diehards is more likely to read than other graphic novels. More than just the niche audience has been exposed to Batman kicking Superman's ass.

It's not all there is,

Not only that, again, it does not explain the popularity of a myriad of Batman projects that don't have that aspect. And let's look at the stuff you do mention:

JLU, where Superman is also shown to be incorruptible. Batman even shows that he ultimately has faith in Superman to do the right thing, which you conveniently fail to mention.

Injustice, where even good Superman fights the evil Superman.


And the DCEU, which to begin with was polarizing and not too popular. Putting that aside even in BvS, the one Batman scene that is actually universally liked isn't Batman beating Superman, it's Batman beating up mooks in a warehouse.

And none of these projects have the same kind of popularity or influence as Burton, BTAS, or The Dark Knight Trilogy. So again, I'm not sure why there was ever a need to pretend that modern Batman's main appeal is that he wails on Superman.

So since it continues off and on to this day, yeah: Batman fans calling the idea silly always comes across as a bit hypocritical.

Because you have a one dimensional view of Batfans and the kind of Batman media that appeals to them. And that says more about you than it does Batfans.

The reality of Bat-God situations doesn't really matter past a certain point.

Yeah, they do. They don't stop mattering because it doesn't serve the kind of argument you want to present.

In any event, this is off topic anyway, so I'm going to just agree to disagree.

[WonderLight789]

Not only that, again, it does not explain the popularity of a myriad of Batman projects that don't have that aspect. And let's look at the stuff you do mention:

JLU, where Superman is also shown to be incorruptible. Batman even shows that he ultimately has faith in Superman to do the right thing, which you conveniently fail to mention.

Injustice, where even good Superman fights the evil Superman.


And the DCEU, which to begin with was polarizing and not too popular. Putting that aside even in BvS, the one Batman scene that is actually universally liked isn't Batman beating Superman, it's Batman beating up mooks in a warehouse.

And none of these projects have the same kind of popularity or influence as Burton, BTAS, or The Dark Knight Trilogy. So again, I'm not sure why there was ever a need to pretend that modern Batman's main appeal is that he wails on Superman.



Because you have a one dimensional view of Batfans and the kind of Batman media that appeals to them. And that says more about you than it does Batfans.



Yeah, they do. They don't stop mattering because it doesn't serve the kind of argument you want to present.

In any event, this is off topic anyway, so I'm going to just agree to disagree.

This thread is not about batman. Can you guys please take it somewhere else?

[j9ac9k]

I think the point is that Batman could obviously take down Wonder Woman if he wanted.

[SiegePerilous02]

I think the point is that Batman could obviously take down Wonder Woman if he wanted.

Like how he took her out with the Lasso of Lies, or kicked her stomach hard enough to win her that one time.

It's stupid when he does it with her too. It should always play out like the Hikiteia.

[SiegePerilous02]

Not only that, again, it does not explain the popularity of a myriad of Batman projects that don't have that aspect. And let's look at the stuff you do mention:

JLU, where Superman is also shown to be incorruptible. Batman even shows that he ultimately has faith in Superman to do the right thing, which you conveniently fail to mention.

Injustice, where even good Superman fights the evil Superman.


And the DCEU, which to begin with was polarizing and not too popular. Putting that aside even in BvS, the one Batman scene that is actually universally liked isn't Batman beating Superman, it's Batman beating up mooks in a warehouse.

And none of these projects have the same kind of popularity or influence as Burton, BTAS, or The Dark Knight Trilogy. So again, I'm not sure why there was ever a need to pretend that modern Batman's main appeal is that he wails on Superman.



Because you have a one dimensional view of Batfans and the kind of Batman media that appeals to them. And that says more about you than it does Batfans.



Yeah, they do. They don't stop mattering because it doesn't serve the kind of argument you want to present.

In any event, this is off topic anyway, so I'm going to just agree to disagree.

The entire Justice Lord timeline shows that Superman can be corrupted in some timelines, but Batman never can. Same with Injustice. And JLU was produced by a guy who's fanboyism of Batman is rather infamous.

[TheBatman]

This thread is not about batman. Can you guys please take it somewhere else?

Maybe you should actually read the posts you respond to.

In that post, I already noted it was off topic and decided not to engage further.

[Midnight_v]

I usually see some comic fans talking about how the marvel family, shazam, mary are equal to superman but WW isn't. And saying shazam is far above WW in power, because the powers from multiple Gods, even though WW also has powers from multiple Gods. And she has been for decades, introduced as stronger than Hercules, faster than Mercury and Wise as Athena. They have the same type of power source and power statements. Yet they love to say he is above WW. This is the typical case of female characters getting the short end of the stick. Statements, feats, battles. WW has had plenty of history publicastion proving her power. Yet we must think of her as ant, next to characters whose overall catalogue does not have better power showings than her. Make it make sense.

I'm not sure if I didn't press enter on my last post or not but not matter I think I figured it out...

Energy Projection.

Its really not because of the "multiple gods" thing, she really lacks it while Supes has Eyebeams and Shazam has "Muh glorious infinite Lightning.." she... doesn't have something equivalent. Or at least not
anything that made out of a single book or arc. Idk.

Subtlety along with the "needs a shield or bracelets to block bullets with" and finally as mentioned above no one summons her to STOP superman ever (again to my knowledge).
It kinda gives a pretty big misleading about what she's capable of. Though its probably hard to shake things that have been a part of her for so long in peoples minds without a huge consistent
showing to change them.

I've been wondering though. I prefer the rubric of "Vs: the same villain to know whats going on.

Has Wonder Woman fought doomsday?
Has Shazam?

How did they fare? I feel like someone here might know off hand. Takers?

[JayPursuits]

In my opinion, Its a mixture of people not really reading the books, focusing on those characters in team-related books, and media having a hand in their interpreation. There's also the fact that no matter how you slice it, white male characters backed by male Greek gods is going to give more credence, consiously and unconsiously, than the female, Greek (who kinda gets treated like she's white anyway) character backed generally by female Goddesses. There's a reason why despite decades of the female goddesses playing a hefty role for the character, her being a litter among Zeus's child is seen as granting her "legitamancy" rather than being the "Daughter of Hippolyta".

[SiegePerilous02]

Subtlety along with the "needs a shield or bracelets to block bullets with" and finally as mentioned above no one summons her to STOP superman ever (again to my knowledge).

Aside from Batman having a desperate "I got nothing on contingencies for her, I was just gonna call Clark and pray" plan for her going rogue, has anyone summoned Superman to stop her?

I've been wondering though. I prefer the rubric of "Vs: the same villain to know whats going on.

Has Wonder Woman fought doomsday?

She fought Doomsday and Faora in the Superman/Wonder Woman series, and I think she held her own pretty well. She was at least durable enough to take some hits.

Meanwhile, Circe was easily able to zap Superman with magic and put him under her thrall, while the then-current version of Cheetah strangled Clark with his tail and hit him with blows that Clark compared to Diana and Captain Marvel. And Johns had the Barbara Minerva Cheetah take him out pretty quickly.

[Midnight_v]

Aside from Batman having a desperate "I got nothing on contingencies for her, I was just gonna call Clark and pray" plan for her going rogue, has anyone summoned Superman to stop her?

Sigh. Sure batman again...
No. ... I don't think anyone really acknowledges that outside wonder woman fans and that one writer.
I don't think anyone's really worried about the "diana who laughs" or whatever solo-ing the earth.
I think that's the issue too NOBODY ever wrote a popular story even an elsewolrds of it, its not a thing to worry about and I think he pulled the nanite trick before

She fought Doomsday and Faora in the Superman/Wonder Woman series, and I think she held her own pretty well. She was at least durable enough to take some hits.

Meanwhile, Circe was easily able to zap Superman with magic and put him under her thrall, while the then-current version of Cheetah strangled Clark with his tail and hit him with blows that Clark compared to Diana and Captain Marvel. And Johns had the Barbara Minerva Cheetah take him out pretty quickly.

[WonderLight789]

I'm not sure if I didn't press enter on my last post or not but not matter I think I figured it out...

Energy Projection.

Its really not because of the "multiple gods" thing, she really lacks it while Supes has Eyebeams and Shazam has "Muh glorious infinite Lightning.." she... doesn't have something equivalent. Or at least not
anything that made out of a single book or arc. Idk.

Subtlety along with the "needs a shield or bracelets to block bullets with" and finally as mentioned above no one summons her to STOP superman ever (again to my knowledge).
It kinda gives a pretty big misleading about what she's capable of. Though its probably hard to shake things that have been a part of her for so long in peoples minds without a huge consistent
showing to change them.

I've been wondering though. I prefer the rubric of "Vs: the same villain to know whats going on.

Has Wonder Woman fought doomsday?
Has Shazam?

How did they fare? I feel like someone here might know off hand. Takers?

Her gear has magic abilities equivalent to having energy beams and more. OPlus she had the zeus lightning in Post Creisis and Post Flash point too.

She has been the one called to stop Superman in plenty of stories. Sacrifice, Witch Is Back, For Tomorrow, Dead Earth, Injustice, The New 52 SuperDoom arc and the one where Circe took Control of him. The arc in Rebirth where a Demon took control of him. The volution comic etc. There's been plenty of stories where she is the one to face sm.

[Psy-lock]

There are also examples of Wonder Woman and her villains taking down Superman outside of comics. They were evenly matched when they thought in the Justice League
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-onkS4...9uZGVyIHdvbWFu
And then again when they thought each other's evil clones
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=EIHfgy...D%3D#searching
Cheetah took out Superman in the Brave and the Bold cartoon
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=pu6rw_...Blcm1hbg%3D%3D

[j9ac9k]

While not a matter of raw power, WW with her magic lasso should be able to take down Superman unless he gets the drop on her with his speed.

[WonderLight789]

While not a matter of raw power, WW with her magic lasso should be able to take down Superman unless he gets the drop on her with his speed.

I see no reason why she shouldn't be fast enough to react to him. She has several times. And if she has God like speed like DC says, it should be within her capabilities.