Gotham - FOX TV Show Discussion

[SXVA]

I'm sorry, but I have been spoiled by Cable. I have seen amazing pilots from shows like Game of Thrones, House of Cards and Breaking Bad, its hard to go back to having mediocre pilots on Network shows. Agents of Shield failed to entertain me within 5 episodes, when I have so much great TV I could be watching, why bother with something that has a medocure start, when other shows knock it out of the park right away. That is likely why the live action TV shows based on comic books I am looking forward to is the street level Marvel shows on Netflix, Netflix shows have more interesting content and acting then any network show. Compare House of Cards to any network show and you see a real difference.

You can't really compare and expect other TV series to be like Game of Thrones and Breaking Bad, they're like the best of the best to where it's very difficult to find that magic in everything... If that's the standard someone is putting on every TV show then they're going to be disappointed way more times than not.... also, they're on channels that have more freedom to where the creators can do more with it.

It's all relative, i don't really compare things... i simply embrace each one and enjoy it for what it is. I know FOX isn't going to usually match up with HBO because of restrictions that HBO doesn't have to deal with, and that's just the way it is currently... i'd like them to have more freedom in creativity but such is life.

All i know is that i enjoy most TV series and movies, and i'd prefer to be that way instead of being all negative and unhappy, and tearing down stuff... i'm happy that i can find enjoyment in all of these wonderful artistic creations that we're lucky to have.

I've seen House of Cards and thought it was good, honestly i don't see it's first few episodes being that much greater than how i saw Gotham, however. They're both enjoyable in their own ways imo.

I do see your point in time restrictions though, sometimes you might not be able to stick with something because there's other stuff you still gotta check out, that's fair enough. I don't think that's the same as writing it off, what i meant by that is someone saying it sucks after a couple episode, and wanting it to be cancelled and never watching it again based on that perspective that it's terrible and sucks after a couple episodes, etc.

[AngelsXDemons]

Fish said Oswald was like a son to her ( just before she beat hell out of him) so I kinda hope not.

One of the things the show seems to be making a point of, is showing how Gotham got to the point
where it is messed up enough to need Batman.

Fish Mooney is crazier than Falcone (she is willing to kill 2 Cops) and now proto Pengy straight up murdered a dude for a sandwich.

And this was only the first episode.

Yeah, definitely. The first episode certainly felt like something out of a dark episode of Star Wars The Clone Wars season 5 with all the fast paced, hard hitting insanity of the nefarious acts committed by the villainous personalities in the latter half of the 'Gotham' pilot episode. Continuing with Star Wars analogy, I certainly find Fish Mooney to be the 'Darth Maul' of sorts in this early exposition of Gotham City. I've said it before and I'm certainly going to say it again; Jada Pinkett Smith stole the show and everything else with her fiery performance. Fish Mooney really was the dark horse of the pilot and Robin Taylor's performance as Penguin was stellar and riveting. Nonetheless, the child stars really deserve a standing ovation because Camren Bicondova and David Mazouz really carried the weight and essence of future brooding Bruce Wayne and the nine feline of Catwoman in a way that enriched the pilot episode in a way that was beyond memorable.

The odd man out was certainly Sean Pertwee's untouchable interpretation of Alfred. I'm not one of the haters of this variation of Alfred because 'Beware The Batman's' Alfred grew on me as I am sure 'Gotham's' will also but I certainly was left with a 'What the heck' response at the close of the pilot because that Alfred certainly isn't in the pages of any DC Batman comic I've read so far.

[Nite-Wing]

Bullock and Gordon are both basically slaves to the corrupt system of gotham now that they "killed" Penguin. In year one it took Batman to break Gordon out of that system and he wasn't even a rookie but a transferred cop. Here we see Gordon as the naive rookie under a system that really is too big for him.

[Tupiaz]

Enviroinment is important, but ASPD and NPD just shows up and there is no effective cure. Look it up.

Hell, even brain damage plays a more important role than environment when it comes to that type of disorders (no, seriously).

And while you are at it, check "temperament", the whole point of the concept is that it's all genetics. If you are born choleric, that's it. You can do all the yoga you want.

So, no. A person can't go from a melancholic rat to a choleric Cartman-type with NPD, much less as an adult. However, confidence is something that a person can gain with experience, considering that the Gotham version already lacks empathy and is quite cunning, the result after some seasons might be close to characterization in Pain and Prejudice.

It is not all genetics but has also to do with the environment. You can't cure ASPD with drugs and you use psychotherapy as a treatment.

"ASPD, and the closely related diagnosis of psychopathy, seem to be products of a strong genetic disposition interacting with a variety of environmental contributions."

[nightrider]

The reviews are in and wow.

http://www.rottentomatoes.com/tv/gotham/

[The Darknight Detective]

The reviews are in and wow.

http://www.rottentomatoes.com/tv/gotham/

Just about how I feel about it, too. If the ratings are also good, the show will have a very nice run.

[Baggie_Saiyan]

Bit late to the party but wow! that episodes was Awesome! I was a bit sceptical going in but all that has gone away now, thoroughly enjoyed this! Them 50 mins flew by!

[Rafa-Rivas-2099]

It is not all genetics but has also to do with the environment. You can't cure ASPD with drugs and you use psychotherapy as a treatment.

"ASPD, and the closely related diagnosis of psychopathy, seem to be products of a strong genetic disposition interacting with a variety of environmental contributions."

I'm not sure how your first link supports the that "it's not all genetics", but I can grant you that it isn't. In that, for instance, among people with no empathy, at least those with good perception, can be righteous if they are raised to believe that it's an effective way of living. I agree that ASPD can't be cured with drugs (not that we were talking about them), but as even your own link recognizes, they are used to help. I agree that there is treatment, and that it necessary, but again, check your own link, because it isn't promising anything (bacause it can't be done). You can't cure ASPD. Period.

Enviroinment plays a role, but it works on given characteristics. With a given temperament and potential for empathy, a subject might behave in different ways. You can have a choleric temperament and act like the Scarface dummy or like Dan Turpin (Raphael from TMNT is another example).

In any case, remember that we're talking about Gotham's Penguin. So I repeat, he can gain confidence and wiser habits, but he can't change his temperament.

[Tupiaz]

I'm not sure how your first link supports the that "it's not all genetics", but I can grant you that it isn't. In that, for instance, among people with no empathy, at least those with good perception, can be righteous if they are raised to believe that it's an effective way of living. I agree that ASPD can't be cured with drugs (not that we were talking about them), but as even your own link recognizes, they are used to help. I agree that there is treatment, and that it necessary, but again, check your own link, because it isn't promising anything (bacause it can't be done). You can't cure ASPD. Period.

Enviroinment plays a role, but it works on given characteristics. With a given temperament and potential for empathy, a subject might behave in different ways. You can have a choleric temperament and act like the Scarface dummy or like Dan Turpin (Raphael from TMNT is another example).

In any case, remember that we're talking about Gotham's Penguin. So I repeat, he can gain confidence and wiser habits, but he can't change his temperament.

Cured? No, but can people live to learn better life and sure his temperament can change man get less temperament as they get older and wiser and also have less testosterone. As the links also says being in certain environments it can change. So let say that the Penguin was put outside organised crime or a better mental institution than Arkham he could learn to control his temperament. People aren't robots that are just programmed and can't learn new ways of living as the become older.

[Rafa-Rivas-2099]

Cured? No, but can people live to learn better life and sure his temperament can change man get less temperament as they get older and wiser and also have less testosterone. As the links also says being in certain environments it can change. So let say that the Penguin was put outside organised crime or a better mental institution than Arkham he could learn to control his temperament. People aren't robots that are just programmed and can't learn new ways of living as the become older.

You mostly got it right. However, temperament doesn't mean being moody. There are different classifications, but they often agree on 4 or 5 types of archetypal temperaments (think ninja turtles). People are usually born with a predominant one and one or two secondary ones. And given an archetype, a person can have mostly the flaws, the virtues or some point in the middle. People can change their temperament, but that's usually something that happens in adolescence due to biological factors. Personality (also genetic) is said to take over temperament. What a person can manage is habits, views.

When it comes to disorders, they can be dealt with, but they are always there. They might show up since childhood, but they are set in early adulthood.

What people can do, is break paradigms of behavior by training. Take animals as vague reference. If you take a dog to a trainer, he might get discipline and good habits, but the personality and the level of energy remains. Same with military training. Cognitive Behavioral Therapy is one of the most serious and effective ways to deal with most of the personality problems. The big problem with some disorders like ASPD, NPD or HPD is that subjects usually don't see the use in changing, and they tend to cheat.

Now, the Penguin usually has many virtues associated with Extroverted, Task-Oriented temperament (choleric or "bossy"), such as charisma and diligence, but has the flaws in exaggerated proportions: his ego is all over the place and has virtually no empathy, to the point that he is also narcissistic (and sometimes portrayed as histrionic). However, we are talking about his portrayal in Gotham, where he is also task-oriented, but introverted (melancholic), and you were saying that he can switch to be more like the comics. No he can't. What he can do is become a bit more confident with experience and resources. People like that are more reactive than proactive. People like Burgess, DeVito or North's Penguin (or Eric Cartman) are 100% proactive. The Gotham version, has some natural drive, like a pilot, if you will, but his confidence depends on how people see him, what he knows he can do and the resources he has. This guy isn't narcissistic or histrionic, he is mostly a power-hungry "weasel" type. I can't tell, but he probably has some form of ASPD or something close to that.

[DurararaFTW]

You mostly got it right. However, temperament doesn't mean being moody. There are different classifications, but they often agree on 4 or 5 types of archetypal temperaments (think ninja turtles). People are usually born with a predominant one and one or two secondary ones. And given an archetype, a person can have mostly the flaws, the virtues or some point in the middle. People can change their temperament, but that's usually something that happens in adolescence due to biological factors. Personality (also genetic) is said to take over temperament. What a person can manage is habits, views.

When it comes to disorders, they can be dealt with, but they are always there. They might show up since childhood, but they are set in early adulthood.

What people can do, is break paradigms of behavior by training. Take animals as vague reference. If you take a dog to a trainer, he might get discipline and good habits, but the personality and the level of energy remains. Same with military training. Cognitive Behavioral Therapy is one of the most serious and effective ways to deal with most of the personality problems. The big problem with some disorders like ASPD, NPD or HPD is that subjects usually don't see the use in changing, and they tend to cheat.

Now, the Penguin usually has many virtues associated with Extroverted, Task-Oriented temperament (choleric or "bossy"), such as charisma and diligence, but has the flaws in exaggerated proportions: his ego is all over the place and has virtually no empathy, to the point that he is also narcissistic (and sometimes portrayed as histrionic). However, we are talking about his portrayal in Gotham, where he is also task-oriented, but introverted (melancholic), and you were saying that he can switch to be more like the comics. No he can't. What he can do is become a bit more confident with experience and resources. People like that are more reactive than proactive. People like Burgess, DeVito or North's Penguin (or Eric Cartman) are 100% proactive. The Gotham version, has some natural drive, like a pilot, if you will, but his confidence depends on how people see him, what he knows he can do and the resources he has. This guy isn't narcissistic or histrionic, he is mostly a power-hungry "weasel" type. I can't tell, but he probably has some form of ASPD or something close to that.

I wouldn't get set on such final judgements as too what he might or might not be like in going forward. Even if the writer of this episode has as clear views on th subject as you do, the writer of next episode might not. At the end of the day, he is the Prnguin, he will be a succesful mob boss in his own right, and he'll probably show capacity for restraint in dealing with nosy cops when the time comes.

[ABH]

I liked it.

The only character that annoyed me was Selina popping up all over, crouching and climbing on rooftops and fences. I get what they are going for, but I didn't like that she witnessed the murder of the Waynes.

The Kean/Montoya thing was unexpected, but very interesting.

[CocktailXYZ]

I agree with many that there was an overabundance of cameo appearances. What typically made me wary of the show's "origins" concept was that there would be a temptation for the writers to try and tie in everything. I initially hated the "corrupt" Bullock, but did remind myself that the original character version was a fully corrupt patsy who later reformed, so I imagine Jim will convert him. (Gordon also needs the glasses and 'stach stat!)

Even if things are successful, this show is going to have the same problems of Superboy/Smallville. The popular villains are what draw the general public, because they are known, but very few of them actually work in the time period of Gotham-pre-Batman.

The result we have is a mash-up of Year One and Gotham Central with a side of stuff that won't fit together.

Based on the pilot alone, I'd say they would have done great things if they ran with an adaptation/homage of just Gotham Central. Since they seem to want to have their cake and eat it too, the whole "regular cops dealing with street level crime, occasionally crossing paths with popular villains, cameo Batman appearances" would have fit the bill perfectly. However, with Agent of S.H.I.E.L.D.'s less than stellar receiving, I guess that would have been a difficult thing to pitch.

It was entertaining enough, but I don't expect it to have long legs. Alternatively, if it does have long legs, it's going to be with the casual viewer/fan and not the more invested bat fans because there is only going to be so much they can shoehorn into the time period without seriously bloating the origins.

[Rafa-Rivas-2099]

I wouldn't get set on such final judgements as too what he might or might not be like in going forward. Even if the writer of this episode has as clear views on th subject as you do, the writer of next episode might not. At the end of the day, he is the Prnguin, he will be a succesful mob boss in his own right, and he'll probably show capacity for restraint in dealing with nosy cops when the time comes.

That's true. This is fiction not real life. While a realistic Penguin wouldn't be able to change from melancholic to choleric, Gothams version can get flanderized if the writers wanted. In BTAS, Harley Quinn has 3 different profiles. In Laughing Fish, Joker's Favor and The Man Who Killed Batman she is some sort of climber type of psychopath, kind of like a conquering groupie with her own agenda, like Claire Underwood from House of Cards. If you notice, she is the one in charge of executing the complicated parts of the Joker's plots and she is in perfect tune with his showmanship. The team took again that line in STAS with Mercy Graves, who kept it until her JLU episodes. In Harley and Ivy, she is a codependent girlfriend, she can still plan ahead but she has a weaker confidence despite showing more capability of success than Ivy or even the Joker. This is the version that was used in No Man's Land when she was introduced as well as her first series. Finally, in Harlequinade, Harley's Holiday, Beware the Creeper, Mad Love and the rest of her appearances she has full blown HPD. She is completely deluded about the Joker and Batman, she can't plan ahead and all she does is improvise (a lot like the Penguin in Birds of a Feather). This final version changes the couple dynamic with the Joker. In the first one you have two skilled psychopaths teaming up, in the second, the Joker is abusing her because of her talent, and in the third, her lack of vision becomes a liability that angers him as much as her habit of stealing the show with her spontaneous jokes and he is basically using her for sex and her improvisational skills... So there, it's not the ideal way to go, but you're right, portrayals change.

[DurararaFTW]

I agree with many that there was an overabundance of cameo appearances. What typically made me wary of the show's "origins" concept was that there would be a temptation for the writers to try and tie in everything. I initially hated the "corrupt" Bullock, but did remind myself that the original character version was a fully corrupt patsy who later reformed, so I imagine Jim will convert him. (Gordon also needs the glasses and 'stach stat!)

Even if things are successful, this show is going to have the same problems of Superboy/Smallville. The popular villains are what draw the general public, because they are known, but very few of them actually work in the time period of Gotham-pre-Batman.

The result we have is a mash-up of Year One and Gotham Central with a side of stuff that won't fit together.

Based on the pilot alone, I'd say they would have done great things if they ran with an adaptation/homage of just Gotham Central. Since they seem to want to have their cake and eat it too, the whole "regular cops dealing with street level crime, occasionally crossing paths with popular villains, cameo Batman appearances" would have fit the bill perfectly. However, with Agent of S.H.I.E.L.D.'s less than stellar receiving, I guess that would have been a difficult thing to pitch.

It was entertaining enough, but I don't expect it to have long legs. Alternatively, if it does have long legs, it's going to be with the casual viewer/fan and not the more invested bat fans because there is only going to be so much they can shoehorn into the time period without seriously bloating the origins.

I hope they embrace that it doesn't just have to be a cop show, given that they've got several main characters in their rooster not with the GCPD.