Is the Spider-Man editorial approach out of touch instead of just spiteful?

[PCN24454]

It's not a basic status-quo, so, yeah, it can be considered as progress.
In fact, that's what the whole problem is - in this industry, the basic status quo is sacred to many people (especially writers and editors with more old school mentality, Mark Waid is one of the most obvious examples), while many fans are annoyed by it. This is where all this lack of understanding lies.

What is a “basic status quo” anyways? How do you know that’s not what you’re asking for?

[Frontier]

Indeed; there is in fact a greater than normal collection of parallels between the Spider-Man books and the Bat Books right now - though, of course, not too many, lest we pretend the situations are exact parallels.

Both have some element of editorial being against a long term pairing and fueling bad writing to get it undone… but Spider-Man editorial has simply recruited writers who share their anti-marriage opinion and doesn’t hold them to much of a storytelling standard, while the Bat-books seem to have mildly annoyed writers carrying out editorial’s demands but without much oversight for making them line-up with each other.

Both have some key plot point dependent on “magical personality disorders” that doesn’t really do character agency very well, and comes off more like a fantastical excuse than character writing… but more overtly magical in the Spider-Man books and more pseudo-sciencey in the Bat-books.

Both have, regrettably, depended on using a very, very dumb writing style in the female love interest to try and inculcate conflict between her and the hero, which unfortunately isn’t that much worse than what the hero gets sometimes.

The biggest foundational difference is that the Batbooks have always loved having a huge Batfamily, while the Spider-books are famously cold on the subject of spin-off characters past a brief miniseries or two. And part of the rage among the Batfandom is seeing their other heroes get pulled into bad writing and another “Batfamily Break-up” that few people ever enjoy, while the Spider-Man books have a bit more of a unique situation because Slott has a pet-project he’s enthusiastic about in Spider-Boy that’s largely uninvolved with the current story.

The irony being that the dumb writing for the female love interest extends to her own book even before the event book .

I still maintain to this day that the "Spider-Family" doesn't work with Peter.

What is a “basic status quo” anyways? How do you know that’s not what you’re asking for?

Peter being young and single?

[Confuzzled]

I still maintain to this day that the "Spider-Family" doesn't work with Peter.

I mean, the first Spider-Verse film shows it can PROVIDED it's an older Peter.

They can't insist on stunting his growth AND have him mentor kids.

[Garlador]

I still maintain to this day that the "Spider-Family" doesn't work with Peter.

I remember seeing a picture in the mid-80s that was poking fun at the difference between Marvel and DC using Superman and Spider-Man:
"There is Superman, Superboy, Supergirl, Superhorse, Superdog, Supermonkey, Supercat... There are dozens of "Super-people" in DC.... but only ONE Spider-Man!" Maybe someone can track down that page.

I thought it was a salient point at the time that Spider-Man's "brand" wasn't "diluted" like DC was so eager to churn out Superman variants over and over. But, of course, that approach with the "one and only" Spider-Man aged like milk.


And, honestly, I don't think that's a bad thing. Whether Marvel likes it or not, there is a sort of generally accepted "Spider-Man Family" of characters that are all actively running around.



Batman, Superman, Flash, Wolverine, Hulk... all these books gradually grew to become "family" books in a way, and Spider-Man is no exception. The issue is that Marvel both wants the benefit of having so many Spider-heroes running around, but not the baggage that comes with their characters and relationships. Ben is effectively Peter's brother, yet Ben hasn't once met up with Aunt May since his resurrection (to my knowledge). Who knows what Kaine is doing. Miles barely interacts with Peter, despite running the same turf in New York. Miguel keeps getting stranded in the modern era. Jessica Drew got roped into the Spider-Man universe despite never having been part of it until recently. Superior is coming back. And then there's Spider-Boy... Etc. etc.

Personally, I think it's crazy Marvel hasn't actively created and promoted an ongoing, truly unified Web Warriors team book. Spider-Man stopped being the "one and only" Spider-Man a long time ago. There's more spider-heroes than ever before, even before you include the multiverse ones, and yet they barely feel like they have any relationships amongst one another in any meaningful way. It's strange.


I think they absolutely should lean into it, but that's just me. Until then, I guess we got "no place for Ben in the Spider-universe, so let's make him evil again and stick him in limbo" and "we're returning to the Superior Spider-Man well for the third time in less than a decade" and "Kaine who?" to look forward to.

[Agent Z]

This may not be a good example, because for years they've been pushing a fascist Supes, I mean that was Snyder's endgame (a billion dollar, multi year, multi film franchise that ultimately failed). So in this example the IP owners changed what is an accurate reflection of Superman.

Just like how Spidey's owners changed what is an accurate reflection for him vis-à-vis: UNMARRIED, DOWN & OUT, ALWAYS WITH THE PARKER LUCK

Snyder's Superman was going to be mind controlled, something that has happened to Superman multiple times. It was also going to be undone, which has also happened to Superman.

[Frontier]

I mean, the first Spider-Verse film shows it can PROVIDED it's an older Peter.

They can't insist on stunting his growth AND have him mentor kids.

But even in Spider-Verse Peter isn't really the main character, it's more the younger kids' game (moreso in the second than the first but still kind of present in the first one), and even as a mentor he's more hands-off because it's ultimately about the younger protagonists coming into their own on their own terms like it was for him.

Insomniac was kind of an outlier here but they initially tried to spin Miles into more of a Tim Drake type than he's traditionally depicted as (and they still had to write Peter out to make him truly come into his own as Spider-Man).

I remember seeing a picture in the mid-80s that was poking fun at the difference between Marvel and DC using Superman and Spider-Man:
"There is Superman, Superboy, Supergirl, Superhorse, Superdog, Supermonkey, Supercat... There are dozens of "Super-people" in DC.... but only ONE Spider-Man!" Maybe someone can track down that page.

I thought it was a salient point at the time that Spider-Man's "brand" wasn't "diluted" like DC was so eager to churn out Superman variants over and over. But, of course, that approach with the "one and only" Spider-Man aged like milk.


And, honestly, I don't think that's a bad thing. Whether Marvel likes it or not, there is a sort of generally accepted "Spider-Man Family" of characters that are all actively running around.



Batman, Superman, Flash, Wolverine, Hulk... all these books gradually grew to become "family" books in a way, and Spider-Man is no exception. The issue is that Marvel both wants the benefit of having so many Spider-heroes running around, but not the baggage that comes with their characters and relationships. Ben is effectively Peter's brother, yet Ben hasn't once met up with Aunt May since his resurrection (to my knowledge). Who knows what Kaine is doing. Miles barely interacts with Peter, despite running the same turf in New York. Miguel keeps getting stranded in the modern era. Jessica Drew got roped into the Spider-Man universe despite never having been part of it until recently. Superior is coming back. And then there's Spider-Boy... Etc. etc.

Personally, I think it's crazy Marvel hasn't actively created and promoted an ongoing, truly unified Web Warriors team book. Spider-Man stopped being the "one and only" Spider-Man a long time ago. There's more spider-heroes than ever before, even before you include the multiverse ones, and yet they barely feel like they have any relationships amongst one another in any meaningful way. It's strange.


I think they absolutely should lean into it, but that's just me. Until then, I guess we got "no place for Ben in the Spider-universe, so let's make him evil again and stick him in limbo" and "we're returning to the Superior Spider-Man well for the third time in less than a decade" and "Kaine who?" to look forward to.

I think the problem is that these additions to the mythos, with some exception, were often not designed to really co-exist or compliment Peter and his story compared to the other examples you cite, and it shows, and I don't think the franchise has quite reckoned with or figured out how to balance all these disparate Spider-Characters and their stories with the raw individualism and personal nature inherent to Spider-Man.

[PCN24454]

The irony being that the dumb writing for the female love interest extends to her own book even before the event book .

I still maintain to this day that the "Spider-Family" doesn't work with Peter.

Peter being young and single?

I think Peter not having a supporting cast also counts towards the “basic status quo”. Him having a Spider-Family would fix that.

I don’t understand this weird idea that Peter always has to work alone. It’s toxic and stunts his character development.

[charliehustle415]

Snyder's Superman was going to be mind controlled, something that has happened to Superman multiple times. It was also going to be undone, which has also happened to Superman.

yeah I know, but what was being pushed was the fact that he was somehow the antithesis of Batman i.e. Superman the government stooge and Batman the freedom fighter of the people (similar to DKR)

[Aura Blaize]

I remember seeing a picture in the mid-80s that was poking fun at the difference between Marvel and DC using Superman and Spider-Man:
"There is Superman, Superboy, Supergirl, Superhorse, Superdog, Supermonkey, Supercat... There are dozens of "Super-people" in DC.... but only ONE Spider-Man!" Maybe someone can track down that page.

I thought it was a salient point at the time that Spider-Man's "brand" wasn't "diluted" like DC was so eager to churn out Superman variants over and over. But, of course, that approach with the "one and only" Spider-Man aged like milk.


And, honestly, I don't think that's a bad thing. Whether Marvel likes it or not, there is a sort of generally accepted "Spider-Man Family" of characters that are all actively running around.



Batman, Superman, Flash, Wolverine, Hulk... all these books gradually grew to become "family" books in a way, and Spider-Man is no exception. The issue is that Marvel both wants the benefit of having so many Spider-heroes running around, but not the baggage that comes with their characters and relationships. Ben is effectively Peter's brother, yet Ben hasn't once met up with Aunt May since his resurrection (to my knowledge). Who knows what Kaine is doing. Miles barely interacts with Peter, despite running the same turf in New York. Miguel keeps getting stranded in the modern era. Jessica Drew got roped into the Spider-Man universe despite never having been part of it until recently. Superior is coming back. And then there's Spider-Boy... Etc. etc.

Personally, I think it's crazy Marvel hasn't actively created and promoted an ongoing, truly unified Web Warriors team book. Spider-Man stopped being the "one and only" Spider-Man a long time ago. There's more spider-heroes than ever before, even before you include the multiverse ones, and yet they barely feel like they have any relationships amongst one another in any meaningful way. It's strange.


I think they absolutely should lean into it, but that's just me. Until then, I guess we got "no place for Ben in the Spider-universe, so let's make him evil again and stick him in limbo" and "we're returning to the Superior Spider-Man well for the third time in less than a decade" and "Kaine who?" to look forward to.

Honestly, I'm fine with a Spider-Family because a lot of them are family in a sense. Peter, Ben and Kaine are brothers and it's quite criminal that nothing has really been done with that. Have them interact with each other and other Spiders like Miles and Miguel and even Otto. There's a lot of unexplored territory.

[Frontier]

I think Peter not having a supporting cast also counts towards the “basic status quo”. Him having a Spider-Family would fix that.

I'm not sure that tracks, wouldn't it make more sense for him to interact with people he knows and grew up with on a daily basis than people he's not really all that close to?

So turn it into the Ultimate Spider-Man cartoon?

I don’t understand this weird idea that Peter always has to work alone. It’s toxic and stunts his character development.

Making him less of a solo act seems to be more to the benefit of other characters than Peter though.

[PCN24454]

I'm not sure that tracks, wouldn't it make more sense for him to interact with people he knows and grew up with on a daily basis than people he's not really all that close to?

So turn it into the Ultimate Spider-Man cartoon?

Making him less of a solo act seems to be more to the benefit of other characters than Peter though.

A person only grows when they start stepping out of their comfort zone. He never because he legit doesn’t need to. He can still be high school Peter because the plot and setting will never evolve beyond that.

Realistically though, a lot of his troubles would be mitigated if hr had consistent help and didn’t try to do everything on his own. Ben, Miles, Madame Webb, etc. could all act as support for Peter physically and emotionally.

How would Peter not benefit from having a supporting cast? Not to mention his interactions with them would expand new plot possibilities.

[Alan2099]

Realistically though, a lot of his troubles would be mitigated if hr had consistent help and didn’t try to do everything on his own. Ben, Miles, Madame Webb, etc. could all act as support for Peter physically and emotionally.

And why would we want Peter to have less troubles in his life? That's what makes things interesting. The very fact that he would be relying on other heroes to solve his problems for him would make the character come across as far less independent and effective than he currently is.

[Garlador]

And why would we want Peter to have less troubles in his life? That's what makes things interesting. The very fact that he would be relying on other heroes to solve his problems for him would make the character come across as far less independent and effective than he currently is.

C'mon, we've read comics. Having a team of support or family around you doesn't always make things "less troublesome". The X-Men rarely all got along (they still don't!). Being a family hasn't stopped Batman from getting into fist-fights with ALL his kids.

Certain things could theoretically get easier... and new dramas could be introduced.

[PCN24454]

C'mon, we've read comics. Having a team of support or family around you doesn't always make things "less troublesome". The X-Men rarely all got along (they still don't!). Being a family hasn't stopped Batman from getting into fist-fights with ALL his kids.

Certain things could theoretically get easier... and new dramas could be introduced.

They felt the same way about the marriage.

[Frontier]

C'mon, we've read comics. Having a team of support or family around you doesn't always make things "less troublesome". The X-Men rarely all got along (they still don't!). Being a family hasn't stopped Batman from getting into fist-fights with ALL his kids.

Certain things could theoretically get easier... and new dramas could be introduced.

A person only grows when they start stepping out of their comfort zone. He never because he legit doesn’t need to. He can still be high school Peter because the plot and setting will never evolve beyond that.

Realistically though, a lot of his troubles would be mitigated if hr had consistent help and didn’t try to do everything on his own. Ben, Miles, Madame Webb, etc. could all act as support for Peter physically and emotionally.

How would Peter not benefit from having a supporting cast? Not to mention his interactions with them would expand new plot possibilities.

How is he still high school Peter though? He's not going to high school everyday or doing high school teenage stuff.

I think the idea of them existing mitigating problems is part of the issue. I think a lot of people read to see Spider-Man overcome difficulties by himself rather than receiving a bunch of help to do so. One of the main critiques of the current run is Spidey constantly being ineffectual or needing to get saved by other characters.

The lifting of the weight scene is important because Peter did it himself and not because it was a team effort moment.

Peter has a supporting cast. Is this a question of the other Spiders should be counted among said supporting cast? The last few Spider-Man cartoons have had a bit habit of making Peter's supporting cast exclusively Superheroes at the expense of his civilian supporting cast.

I agree with the notion that having Miles around means there doesn't need to be this real push for Peter to have to feel "young" or "single" because Miles can fulfill that role now.

C'mon, we've read comics. Having a team of support or family around you doesn't always make things "less troublesome". The X-Men rarely all got along (they still don't!). Being a family hasn't stopped Batman from getting into fist-fights with ALL his kids.

Certain things could theoretically get easier... and new dramas could be introduced.

I do feel like it's a recent trend of giving characters constant support teams of hackers or other Superheroes to the point where it detracts from the actual hero themselves.

Like Team Flash where they would take away from Barry's intelligence or skills to justify his supporting cast needing to help him or take screentime away from him. Or needing to turn everyone in the supporting cast into a Superhero just so they could feel involved to the point where the main hero feels lost in the shuffle.

And the difference between the Batfamily and the Spiderfamily is the existence of Robin from the get-go who naturally compliments Batman and serves a role and how that has built up the Batfamily over time around that, Spider-Man doesn't really have that (Spider-Boy aside). Spider-Man was meant to be a Robin as a solo hero without Batman.