Is the Spider-Man editorial approach out of touch instead of just spiteful?

[Agent Z]

yeah I know, but what was being pushed was the fact that he was somehow the antithesis of Batman i.e. Superman the government stooge and Batman the freedom fighter of the people (similar to DKR)

That's only true if you're ignoring a great deal of context.

It would be like watching Age of Ultron and coming away thinking that the Hulk was a villain because of what Wanda made him do to Johannesburg. Superman would not be willingly serving Darkseid and Snyder didn't portray Batman as being faultless either. His version of Superman was also far from a government stooge, to the point fans actually complained about him being too disrespectful to the military.

[Agent Z]

How is he still high school Peter though? He's not going to high school everyday or doing high school teenage stuff.

I think the idea of them existing mitigating problems is part of the issue. I think a lot of people read to see Spider-Man overcome difficulties by himself rather than receiving a bunch of help to do so. One of the main critiques of the current run is Spidey constantly being ineffectual or needing to get saved by other characters.

The lifting of the weight scene is important because Peter did it himself and not because it was a team effort moment.

Peter has a supporting cast. Is this a question of the other Spiders should be counted among said supporting cast? The last few Spider-Man cartoons have had a bit habit of making Peter's supporting cast exclusively Superheroes at the expense of his civilian supporting cast.

I agree with the notion that having Miles around means there doesn't need to be this real push for Peter to have to feel "young" or "single" because Miles can fulfill that role now.

I do feel like it's a recent trend of giving characters constant support teams of hackers or other Superheroes to the point where it detracts from the actual hero themselves.

Like Team Flash where they would take away from Barry's intelligence or skills to justify his supporting cast needing to help him or take screentime away from him. Or needing to turn everyone in the supporting cast into a Superhero just so they could feel involved to the point where the main hero feels lost in the shuffle.

And the difference between the Batfamily and the Spiderfamily is the existence of Robin from the get-go who naturally compliments Batman and serves a role and how that has built up the Batfamily over time around that, Spider-Man doesn't really have that (Spider-Boy aside). Spider-Man was meant to be a Robin as a solo hero without Batman.

I think this is one of those things that is greatly overstated. Using the CW is kind of low hanging fruit given how contentious those shows often are and even then, I don't think Barry is as overly reliant on his supporting cast as many claim. Furthermore, with how many teams and alliances we've had, large supporting networks for superheroes have been in existence for decades.

In fact, this current run is a pretty good argument that the less people a superhero has in their corner, the worse off they are.

[Frontier]

I think this is one of those things that is greatly overstated. Using the CW is kind of low hanging fruit given how contentious those shows often are and even then, I don't think Barry is as overly reliant on his supporting cast as many claim. Furthermore, with how many teams and alliances we've had, large supporting networks for superheroes have been in existence for decades.

In fact, this current run is a pretty good argument that the less people a superhero has in their corner, the worse off they are.

I think there's an objective case to be made that they scaled back Barry's intelligence and effectiveness level to justify the team to a certain extent. And I think there's a difference between a "support network" and a hero needing their own team on an ongoing basis in their own solo thing. Like Oracle existing to connect the Superhero community isn't the same as a Team Flash in my opinion.

I mean, if you want an example of Spider-Man look no further than in the 2017 cartoon where it felt like Peter was constantly getting saved or couldn't get a clean win on his own because we needed to show off the other Spiders or have the supporting cast chip in.

Is it really that good an argument when it's mostly just Wells not writing Peter well? He's gotten by with less better by other writers.

[phonogram12]

I do feel like it's a recent trend of giving characters constant support teams of hackers or other Superheroes to the point where it detracts from the actual hero themselves.

Like Team Flash where they would take away from Barry's intelligence or skills to justify his supporting cast needing to help him or take screentime away from him. Or needing to turn everyone in the supporting cast into a Superhero just so they could feel involved to the point where the main hero feels lost in the shuffle.

From what I've read, this is mainly the case for the CW shows because they didn't want to overwork the lead character. While not a superhero show, after working 1 16 hr day, the lead of Riverdale fell asleep at the wheel due to exhaustion. I do agree with you, but there are better ways to spread the screen time around without putting everyone in a suit. Personally, I think Daredevil was a great example of that. With the exception of the short stints from Punisher and Elektra, they never once introduced a supporting cast member who was also a superhero and made great use of the non-superhero cast members they did have without once ever forgetting that it was a Daredevil show.

[phonogram12]

The biggest foundational difference is that the Batbooks have always loved having a huge Batfamily, while the Spider-books are famously cold on the subject of spin-off characters past a brief miniseries or two. And part of the rage among the Batfandom is seeing their other heroes get pulled into bad writing and another “Batfamily Break-up” that few people ever enjoy, while the Spider-Man books have a bit more of a unique situation because Slott has a pet-project he’s enthusiastic about in Spider-Boy that’s largely uninvolved with the current story.

This is actually a really good point. It took awhile, but I actually do feel a Spider-Family is a sign of forward momentum in the Spider-Verse because (IMHO) it's pretty well thought out and written. But just because it's not the progress that some were hoping for, it gets dismissed unfairly.

[PCN24454]

I think there's an objective case to be made that they scaled back Barry's intelligence and effectiveness level to justify the team to a certain extent. And I think there's a difference between a "support network" and a hero needing their own team on an ongoing basis in their own solo thing. Like Oracle existing to connect the Superhero community isn't the same as a Team Flash in my opinion.

I mean, if you want an example of Spider-Man look no further than in the 2017 cartoon where it felt like Peter was constantly getting saved or couldn't get a clean win on his own because we needed to show off the other Spiders or have the supporting cast chip in.

Is it really that good an argument when it's mostly just Wells not writing Peter well? He's gotten by with less better by other writers.

Overcome what? Since when has Peter ever had a clean victory? It’s always cost something. That’s arguably why he needs help; he’s proven he can’t actually accomplish things on his own.

He’s still fighting Vulture, Electro, Mysterio, etc. as though he’s still in high school. They cloned Kraven again so it’s as though nothing actually happened.

Honestly, being able to accept help from others is a sign of maturity rather than weakness. His inability to work with others is the biggest sign that Peter has regressed.

[Kurus]

Overcome what? Since when has Peter ever had a clean victory? It’s always cost something. That’s arguably why he needs help; he’s proven he can’t actually accomplish things on his own.

He’s still fighting Vulture, Electro, Mysterio, etc. as though he’s still in high school. They cloned Kraven again so it’s as though nothing actually happened.

Honestly, being able to accept help from others is a sign of maturity rather than weakness. His inability to work with others is the biggest sign that Peter has regressed.

Peter’s had clean victories all the damn time. Hell he once beat doc ock so bad that ock developed a bonafide phobia of Spider-Man.

[PCN24454]

Peter’s had clean victories all the damn time. Hell he once beat doc ock so bad that ock developed a bonafide phobia of Spider-Man.

That honestly doesn’t feel like anything. I remember when Ock killed a police officer right after Spidey stopped him from causing an international incident.

[Frontier]

From what I've read, this is mainly the case for the CW shows because they didn't want to overwork the lead character. While not a superhero show, after working 1 16 hr day, the lead of Riverdale fell asleep at the wheel due to exhaustion. I do agree with you, but there are better ways to spread the screen time around without putting everyone in a suit. Personally, I think Daredevil was a great example of that. With the exception of the short stints from Punisher and Elektra, they never once introduced a supporting cast member who was also a superhero and made great use of the non-superhero cast members they did have without once ever forgetting that it was a Daredevil show.

And it eventually got bad enough in those shows that the main character got overshadowed by their supporting cast in the later season.

Spectacular (the cartoon) did a great job of balancing out Peter's civilian side and Superhero side and even when a character in his supporting cast did get powers it felt more special and less like "let's give everybody powers" like what happened in subsequent Spidey cartoons.

This is actually a really good point. It took awhile, but I actually do feel a Spider-Family is a sign of forward momentum in the Spider-Verse because (IMHO) it's pretty well thought out and written. But just because it's not the progress that some were hoping for, it gets dismissed unfairly.

I think it works in the sense that each Spider-Character works fine individually and with their own take on the Spider-Man story, but not necessarily when taken collectively.

At least for Peter. I think the Spider-Verse stuff in the movies have worked out better for Miles but they're also movies and not ongoing.

Overcome what? Since when has Peter ever had a clean victory? It’s always cost something. That’s arguably why he needs help; he’s proven he can’t actually accomplish things on his own.

He’s still fighting Vulture, Electro, Mysterio, etc. as though he’s still in high school. They cloned Kraven again so it’s as though nothing actually happened.

Honestly, being able to accept help from others is a sign of maturity rather than weakness. His inability to work with others is the biggest sign that Peter has regressed.

Check out Gerry Conway's run where he won most of his fights even if it was just the rematch. And the villains have grown along with him most of the time. Do you think he would only feel accomplished if his villains stopped being villains or were put down permanently?

I mean, does he need to call Miles or Silk just to fight Scorpion or Mysterio? It's not so much an inability to work with others so much as an underdog overcoming

[PCN24454]

And it eventually got bad enough in those shows that the main character got overshadowed by their supporting cast in the later season.

Spectacular (the cartoon) did a great job of balancing out Peter's civilian side and Superhero side and even when a character in his supporting cast did get powers it felt more special and less like "let's give everybody powers" like what happened in subsequent Spidey cartoons.

I think it works in the sense that each Spider-Character works fine individually and with their own take on the Spider-Man story, but not necessarily when taken collectively.

At least for Peter. I think the Spider-Verse stuff in the movies have worked out better for Miles but they're also movies and not ongoing.

Check out Gerry Conway's run where he won most of his fights even if it was just the rematch. And the villains have grown along with him most of the time. Do you think he would only feel accomplished if his villains stopped being villains or were put down permanently?

I mean, does he need to call Miles or Silk just to fight Scorpion or Mysterio? It's not so much an inability to work with others so much as an underdog overcoming

Having recurring villains is not a good thing. All villains have an expiration date. Anyone from before the 21 Century is long past due.

I want Spidey the gang to be fighting new enemies.

[Agent Z]

That honestly doesn’t feel like anything. I remember when Ock killed a police officer right after Spidey stopped him from causing an international incident.

Just because he doesn't have clean victories all the time doesn't mean he never has them.

[Frontier]

Having recurring villains is not a good thing. All villains have an expiration date. Anyone from before the 21 Century is long past due.

I want Spidey the gang to be fighting new enemies.

But a lot of those villains became more developed/defined over time by appearing more than once.

That's true for a lot of comic book Rogues Galleries.

[Vegan]

I don’t know why anyone is giving the take “Spider-Man is a failure because he has reoccurring villains” the time of day when every super hero in the entirety of comics and fiction in general has reoccurring villains. It’s nonsense.

[Alan2099]

I don’t know why anyone is giving the take “Spider-Man is a failure because he has reoccurring villains” the time of day when every super hero in the entirety of comics and fiction in general has reoccurring villains. It’s nonsense.

Even Punisher has recurring villains. Not many, mind you, but a few.

[Coop]

Having reoccurring villains is definitely a feature not a bug.

Regarding winning fights vs losing fights. As with everything else the execution matters more than the scenario. You can write stories where Spider-Man gets help, struggles, loses, wins by the skin of his teeth, or stomps the villain. The issue with Wells is, imo, he does it in a lazily written way that makes Peter seem incompetent rather than the villain seeming powerful. They needed him to use the Osborn suit for a new costume for marketing/toys/whatever, so he gets beaten around and screams and cries for the suit on the phone.

The story takes for granted a lot of things and doesn't show the work. It's true in the plots, the character relationships, and the fights. For me at least, it's not simply "Peter no beat villain comic bad"