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  1. #361
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    Quote Originally Posted by kingaliencracker View Post
    I've also said that while I wouldn't have married Peter, the marriage happened and barring a company-wide reboot, Marvel was obligated to make it work. Instead, they tried various ways to end it until they finally came out with OMD. Again, I hate OMD. But it happened, and we move on.
    The problem with the "Move on" argument is that Spider-Man comics haven't put out anything impressive since pre-OMD. Nothing in the past 16 years is on par with Morrison's Action Comics reboot or Scott Snyder's Batman reboot.

    The only major writers have been Slott, Spencer, Zdarsky and Wells. Spencer and Zdarsky are liked, the other two are not. And for understandable reasons. (Their writing isn't very good even if you put OMD aside).

    If Spider-Man fans were as unreasonable as you paint them, they wouldn't have liked Spencer and Zdarsky. They wouldn't even be excited for Greg Weisman's book (which I assume won't undo OMD), but most of them clearly are.

    So the "Move on" argument comes off like a tantrum that people don't like Slott and Wells specifically.
    Last edited by Kaitou D. Kid; 12-03-2023 at 12:29 AM.

  2. #362
    Really Feeling It! Kevinroc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaitou D. Kid View Post
    The problem with the "Move on!!" argument is that Spider-Man comics haven't put out anything impressive since pre-OMD. Nothing in the past 16 years is on par with Morrison's Action Comics reboot or even Scott Snyder's Batman.

    The only major writers have been Slott, Spencer and Wells. Spencer is well liked, the other two are not. And for understandable reasons. Spider-Man fans complain about way more things in their runs than just the fact they haven't undone OMD.

    So the "Move on!!" argument is really just a tantrum that people don't like Slott/Wells.
    Marvel just retconned a 20-year-old story about Nightcrawler's parentage in order to incorporate an idea Editorial said "no" to Chris Claremont over probably around 40-ish years ago.

    Nobody knows what will happen in the future.

  3. #363
    Astonishing Member kingaliencracker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevinroc View Post
    I want to see Peter torn between his responsibilities to his family and his commitment to saving people as Spider-Man. That sounds like an interesting set-up for a series, doesn't it? But you bring too much of your own personal biases into your post.
    There's no way Peter looks good breaking his commitment to his family in favor of Spider-Man, or vice/versa. Again, it's one thing to let down your boss or your girlfriend or your teacher. It's another thing to let down your wife and kids.

    I think Spider-Man is popular regardless of if he's a 15-year-old kid or a 40-something year old husband and father. Your argument seems to be Spider-Man is only popular if he's a kid/young adult, but the evidence doesn't support that. Older Spider-Men still tend to be just as popular (if not moreso). Or are we pretending Peter B. Parker didn't instantly become a fan-favorite character or that Garfield and Maguire weren't immediately loved when they popped up in NWH or that the announcement of Hickman's family man Peter in USM didn't generate some of the largest engagement numbers we have ever seen on official Spider-Man social media accounts?

    If you want to argue that these are Marvel's characters, and the people in charge have made their feelings known you can just say that. Whether future Editorial feel the same way or not is another discussion.
    Again, there is no disputing that the most recognized and popular version of the character is one who is in his late teens/early 20's. Fans here can feel whatever they want to about the marriage, but you would certainly be injecting your own personal bias if you denied that somehow.

  4. #364
    Really Feeling It! Kevinroc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kingaliencracker View Post
    There's no way Peter looks good breaking his commitment to his family in favor of Spider-Man, or vice/versa. Again, it's one thing to let down your boss or your girlfriend or your teacher. It's another thing to let down your wife and kids.
    That sounds like an interesting set-up for a series, doesn't it?

    Again, there is no disputing that the most recognized and popular version of the character is one who is in his late teens/early 20's. Fans here can feel whatever they want to about the marriage, but you would certainly be injecting your own personal bias if you denied that somehow.
    Need I remind you again that Insomniac's Spider-Man 2 sold over 5 million copies in 10 days and Peter is stated to be a 25-year-old in that game?

    People like Spider-Man.

  5. #365
    Astonishing Member kingaliencracker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaitou D. Kid View Post
    The problem with the "Move on" argument is that Spider-Man comics haven't put out anything impressive since pre-OMD. Nothing in the past 16 years is on par with Morrison's Action Comics reboot or Scott Snyder's Batman reboot.

    The only major writers have been Slott, Spencer, Zdarsky and Wells. Spencer and Zdarsky are liked, the other two are not. And for understandable reasons. (Their writing isn't very good even if you put OMD aside).

    If Spider-Man fans were as unreasonable as you paint them, they wouldn't have liked Spencer and Zdarsky. They wouldn't even be excited for Greg Weisman's book (which I assume won't undo OMD), but most of them clearly are.

    So the "Move on" argument comes off like a tantrum that people don't like Slott and Wells specifically.
    Except again, none of this is supported by sales or lack of popularity with the character in an unmarried state.

    And I would ask, how would Peter being married somehow make these stories that you don't like better post-OMD?

  6. #366
    Astonishing Member kingaliencracker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevinroc View Post
    That sounds like an interesting set-up for a series, doesn't it?
    Again, if the point of the setup is to show Peter can't be married and maintain being Spider-Man, then yes. But as I stated, that won't satisfy fans in favor of the marriage because what they want is a family dynamic that supports Peter being Spider-Man 100%.

    Need I remind you again that Insomniac's Spider-Man 2 sold over 5 million copies in 10 days and Peter is stated to be a 25-year-old in that game?

    People like Spider-Man.
    As I said, if you think Peter being 25-years-old in the game as opposed to say, 23-years-old, somehow invalidates everything I've been saying, so be it. To me, it's semantics.

  7. #367
    Really Feeling It! Kevinroc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kingaliencracker View Post
    Again, if the point of the setup is to show Peter can't be married and maintain being Spider-Man, then yes. But as I stated, that won't satisfy fans in favor of the marriage because what they want is a family dynamic that supports Peter being Spider-Man 100%.
    People want well-written drama about overcoming struggle and hardship. It's not that complicated. These are superhero stories about overcoming hardships meant to inspire their audience. If this isn't what you want, why are you reading superhero fiction in the first place?

    As I said, if you think Peter being 25-years-old in the game as opposed to say, 23-years-old, somehow invalidates everything I've been saying, so be it. To me, it's semantics.
    Peter's not a student. He's not in High School or College.

    (Peter was 23 in the first game.)

  8. #368
    Astonishing Member kingaliencracker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevinroc View Post
    People want well-written drama about overcoming struggle and hardship. It's not that complicated. These are superhero stories about overcoming hardships meant to inspire their audience. If this isn't what you want, why are you reading superhero fiction in the first place?
    I think generally you're right. My experience with comic book fans, however, is that sometimes we can't see the forest from the trees. Fans of the marriage don't want to see Peter fail at it, no matter how realistic or well-written it is, because then it just gives credence to the idea he can't maintain being Spider-Man and
    have a family.

    Peter's not a student. He's not in High School or College.

    (Peter was 23 in the first game.)
    Again, I'm fine with Peter being 25. Really I'm fine if his age isn't referred to at all.

  9. #369
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    Quote Originally Posted by kingaliencracker View Post
    I have provided AMPLE evidence that supports my position that a single, younger Peter Parker is the most recognized, most adapted, and most beloved version of the character. What I've gotten in response is that he was married during a period in the comic books generally recognized as one of the worst in Spider-Man's history (roughly the early 90's to the early 00's), that he was married in Spider-Man Unlimted, one of the most obscure Spider-Man series ever that barely made it one season, and that he was/is married in the Spider-Verse films, films featuring an alternate universe Peter Parker who isn't even the main Spider-Man of the films and has multiple versions of Spider-Man.

    I have had an honest discussion with you and others. You have your preference, I have mine. I have my interpretation of what makes Peter a great character, you have yours. The bottom line is that the only thing that matters is what Marvel thinks, and they think Peter should be single. It seems to me that your real issue is with them, not me.
    You really haven't. You've just tried to say the marriage was bad because of other factors and then refused to engage with me about your behaviour here. Sorry, but I don't buy this from you.

  10. #370
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    Quote Originally Posted by kingaliencracker View Post
    This has been said by fans in favor of the marriage over the years, but not proven by way of any direct quote by JMS. I certainly remember at the time JMS saying things like he enjoyed writing Peter and MJ as a couple. But nothing along the lines that he believed they should remain married and he wanted to continue writing those stories indefinitely.

    What has been said, if not directly by JMS but by Joe Quesada, is that by all accounts, JMS was perfectly fine retconning the marriage out. He just had a differing method of doing it than what Marvel wanted, which incidentally still involved Mephisto and much deeper changes for Spider-Man than what ultimately happened. In fact, JMS' preferred story would have brought Peter back much closer to "spec" than Marvel ultimately went, and put the burden of the Mephisto deal squarely on Peter, not MJ.

    Also, for the record when discussing what JMS may or may not have wanted with his run on Spider-Man and the retconning the marriage out of existence, I'll refer you to Dan Slott's quotes on the subject about five years ago:



    I always point this out, because fans in favor of the marriage use Stan Lee and JMS in defense of it, and paint JMS has some kind of victim who desperately wanted to keep MJ and Peter married, but the evil overlords at Marvel forced him to do OMD.
    I don't think it's entirely this black and white. As I understand it, JMS has said that he wouldn't have undone the marriage himself if he was given free reign. That he very much saw the retcon and the coming reboot as a jumping off point for him as a writer. But he wanted to craft the retcon himself to cap off his story. He was especially annoyed that the story that he came up with was so heavily altered. I'll see if I can find the quote.

    Regardless, this isn't exactly "proof" that the marriage should return. Just a rebuttal to the often repeated "everyone hates the marriage" statement that some make. Writers such as Lee, JMS, Defalco, JMD, etc, and others at Marvel really do enjoy writing a married Spider-Man. Hickman clearly is interested in writing a married Spider-Man otherwise it wouldn't be the premise of his new universe.
    Last edited by Spider-Tiger; 12-03-2023 at 06:49 AM.

  11. #371
    Astonishing Member Tuck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kingaliencracker View Post
    What I've gotten in response is that he was married during a period in the comic books generally recognized as one of the worst in Spider-Man's history (roughly the early 90's to the early 00's),
    Very early 2000s.

    JMS/RJR took over ASM in early 2001.

  12. #372
    Mighty Member Garlador's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kingaliencracker View Post
    I would say whatever gripes or concerns the fans on these boards here have with the current Spider-Man, it's not being translated in sales. AMS is consistently Marvel's top-selling book.
    "Whatever gripes or concerns Marvel has with a married Spider-Man are not being translated in sales." That was also true.

    Though, funny enough, I did find a brief tiff between JMS saying sales dropped after his run, even though the book was "still the best-selling title", which pissed off then-EiC Steve Wacker, and Mark Waid basically slammed him for breaking the writer bro-code.

    Spider-Man has always been Marvel's most popular character and the book should logically sell through sheer positive inertia, especially with the boost of a major Hollywood movie and blockbuster game this year. A reminder, we do not have actual sales data anymore.

    Quote Originally Posted by kingaliencracker View Post
    JMS' run was great, although I certainly didn't agree with all of it. However, even JMS had no qualms about ending the marriage, just the method Marvel wanted to use to end it versus what he envisioned.

    This has been said by fans in favor of the marriage over the years, but not proven by way of any direct quote by JMS. I certainly remember at the time JMS saying things like he enjoyed writing Peter and MJ as a couple. But nothing along the lines that he believed they should remain married and he wanted to continue writing those stories indefinitely.
    (responding on his blog to an upset reader dreading the possibility that OMD might actually go through with it) "Spider-Man belongs to Marvel, not to me, and at the end of the day, however much I may disagree with things, and however much I may make it very CLEAR to all parties that I disagree, I have to honor their position." - JMS, 2007
    (responding to the marriage status quo request) "Often times when you care a lot about something, you can disagree strenuously. Personally, I was perfectly happy keeping them married." - JMS, 2008
    (responding to question about OMD) "You have to respect [your Editor's] choices. He never liked the idea of them being married. I LOVED them being married. I LOVED writing Peter and Mary Jane being married." -JMS, 2013
    "Writing that relationship was one of the most fun things I ever did at Marvel and on that Spidey run." - JMS, 2018
    "It’s a matter of historical record that Marvel wanted to unmarry Peter (but without the political weight of a divorce) and [One More Day] was commissioned by Editorial to achieve that. I had come onto the book to reunite the two, and I loved writing them as a married couple, would’ve been happy to continue doing that forever." - JMS, 2021

    Quote Originally Posted by kingaliencracker View Post
    There's no way Peter looks good breaking his commitment to his family in favor of Spider-Man, or vice/versa. Again, it's one thing to let down your boss or your girlfriend or your teacher. It's another thing to let down your wife and kids.
    Welcome to adulthood, where I've had to miss family events, anniversaries, birthdays, etc., let down my wife and kids, and make tough decisions whenever I'm scheduled to go on very important business trips that keep a roof over our heads and food on our table. Welcome to the life of being married to an on-call surgeon who has had to bail on Christmas to do life-saving surgery. Yes, it SUCKS to let down your family, but they understand you do it for a very important, life-changing reason.

    Quote Originally Posted by kingaliencracker View Post
    Again, there is no disputing that the most recognized and popular version of the character is one who is in his late teens/early 20's. Fans here can feel whatever they want to about the marriage, but you would certainly be injecting your own personal bias if you denied that somehow.
    I think there's plenty of "disputing". The 616 version is pushing 30. Wouldn't you claim that the comic version that's been around since the 1960s is the version that's most popular, as it's the ONLY one still going? He's not late teens/early20s, and he hasn't been for decades.

    Quote Originally Posted by kingaliencracker View Post
    Except again, none of this is supported by sales or lack of popularity with the character in an unmarried state.
    "Except, none of this is supported by sales or lack of popularity with the character in a married state." This was also true.

    Quote Originally Posted by kingaliencracker View Post
    And I would ask, how would Peter being married somehow make these stories that you don't like better post-OMD?
    IMMENSELY, in my honest opinion. I would have loved seeing how Mary Jane could have been involved more and helped tackle many of those problems. "New Ways to Die" could have been a great story to have her fully confront her phobia of the Venom symbiote. "The Gauntlet" and "Grim Hunt" could have been perfect continuations of how vital their marriage was in the pages of "Last Hunt". I even think it would have been fascinating watching Mary Jane figure out that Otto had hijacked her husband's body in "Superior" and the lengths she'd go to try and convince herself and others (with Otto sabotaging her efforts). That sounds like incredibly compelling drama I would have happily have read that didn't just ignore her character or role in the book.

    Quote Originally Posted by kingaliencracker View Post
    I think generally you're right. My experience with comic book fans, however, is that sometimes we can't see the forest from the trees. Fans of the marriage don't want to see Peter fail at it, no matter how realistic or well-written it is, because then it just gives credence to the idea he can't maintain being Spider-Man and have a family.
    Not remotely true. We want to see Peter screw up. We want to see their marriage have challenges, setbacks, and mistakes. The notion that fans of the marriage want some euphoric "happily ever after" is grossly incorrect. Personally speaking, I want it for the same reasons DeFalco and DeMatteis still want it - because they think the added responsibilities of marriage and parenthood makes the book MORE interesting, not LESS. That there is a greater conflict to be had at making the tough choices between your daughter's dance recital or trying to track down Tombstone. That we want to see the challenges of working through disagreements, disappointments, and setbacks, just as we do for ANY good relationship.

    You're right about one thing; marriage means Peter will let someone down. It's inevitable. But that's OKAY. That's narrative conflict. That's organic character development. It's what ANY story involving superheroes should tap into.




    Characters - married or single - need the space to fail and grow. This is simply how good stories are crafted.
    Last edited by Garlador; 12-03-2023 at 07:51 AM.
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  13. #373
    Astonishing Member Tuck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaitou D. Kid View Post
    The only major writers have been Slott, Spencer, Zdarsky and Wells. Spencer and Zdarsky are liked, the other two are not. And for understandable reasons. (Their writing isn't very good even if you put OMD aside).
    Slott's Spider-Man work is well-liked. It's just that there is a group of vocal fans who don't like his work, that there isn't for Spencer and Zdarsky.

  14. #374
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    Quote Originally Posted by kingaliencracker View Post
    This has been said by fans in favor of the marriage over the years, but not proven by way of any direct quote by JMS. I certainly remember at the time JMS saying things like he enjoyed writing Peter and MJ as a couple. But nothing along the lines that he believed they should remain married and he wanted to continue writing those stories indefinitely.

    Quote Originally Posted by Garlador View Post
    (responding on his blog to an upset reader dreading the possibility that OMD might actually go through with it) "Spider-Man belongs to Marvel, not to me, and at the end of the day, however much I may disagree with things, and however much I may make it very CLEAR to all parties that I disagree, I have to honor their position." - JMS, 2007
    (responding to the marriage status quo request) "Often times when you care a lot about something, you can disagree strenuously. Personally, I was perfectly happy keeping them married." - JMS, 2008
    (responding to question about OMD) "You have to respect [your Editor's] choices. He never liked the idea of them being married. I LOVED them being married. I LOVED writing Peter and Mary Jane being married." -JMS, 2013
    "Writing that relationship was one of the most fun things I ever did at Marvel and on that Spidey run." - JMS, 2018
    "It’s a matter of historical record that Marvel wanted to unmarry Peter (but without the political weight of a divorce) and [One More Day] was commissioned by Editorial to achieve that. I had come onto the book to reunite the two, and I loved writing them as a married couple, would’ve been happy to continue doing that forever." - JMS, 2021
    Thanks, Garlador!
    Last edited by Spider-Tiger; 12-03-2023 at 08:27 AM.

  15. #375
    Mighty Member Garlador's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tuck View Post
    Slott's Spider-Man work is well-liked. It's just that there is a group of vocal fans who don't like his work, that there isn't for Spencer and Zdarsky.
    I'll echo this. I know Slott is at times a very divisive writer and personality (hi Dan), but it's ignorant to claim he didn't have a generally well-regarded run with some well-regarded stories. I generally dislike creating an echo chamber holding on to what should be a more nuance view. A recent "who is your favorite Spider-Man writer?" on Twitter had several hundred responses with Slott mentioned multiple times by responders. Many kids grew up with his run too. He has a sizable fanbase.

    And I'll be the first to say there are a few Spider-Man stories under his pen that I think are expertly crafted and perfectly nail the character.
    Last edited by Garlador; 12-03-2023 at 10:19 AM.
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