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  1. #286
    Ultimate Member Mister Mets's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan2099 View Post
    You mean something to strive for that everyone should see as a positive goal?
    This gets to be an odd tangent. We should in theory agree that opposing toxicity is more important than the spider-marriage.

    If someone is toxic, the response should be the same, regardless on what side they're on.

    Most people don't meet that standard. It may be that they're more likely to be sympathetic to someone on their side, and have similar frames of reference, so they're primed to go with the most generous interpretation of what that person said (and they may be primed to go with a less generous interpretation of what someone on the other side did.) A lot of people also act like activists, using issues to score points.

    We should in general be willing to call out people on our side when they're obnoxious, to the extent we would call out someone on the other side. The standards and goal posts should be consistent (and there may be very well be nuances that explain why someone on your side is morally superior to someone on the other side who did something superficially similar.)

    This is especially true when anyone's trying to persuade others. If someone makes bad arguments in one arena, they're less likely to be trusted elsewhere.

    This is a general opinion on tactics, since I don't want to relitigate which side is nicer. Much of the messaging in favor of the new Ultimate Spider-Man is positive, which is a smart approach.
    Last edited by Mister Mets; 11-28-2023 at 01:53 PM.
    Sincerely,
    Thomas Mets

  2. #287
    Mighty Member Garlador's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Mets View Post
    This gets to be an odd tangent. We should in theory agree that opposing toxicity is more important than the spider-marriage.

    If someone is toxic, the response should be the same, regardless on what side they're on.

    Most people don't meet that standard. It may be that they're more likely to be sympathetic to someone on their side, and have similar frames of reference, so they're primed to go with the most generous interpretation of what that person said (and they may be primed to go with a less generous interpretation of what someone on the other side did.) A lot of people also act like activists, using issues to score points.

    We should in general be willing to call out people on our side when they're obnoxious, to the extent we would call out someone on the other side. The standards and goal posts should be consistent (and there may be very well be nuances that explain why someone on your side is morally superior to someone on the other side who did something superficially similar.)

    This is especially true when anyone's trying to persuade others. If someone makes bad arguments in one arena, they're less likely to be trusted elsewhere.
    Spot on. And this is very much true for what we’re doing. “Help, don’t hinder, the campaign” is a posted rule. If someone deviates, I’m happy to say others are there pushing them back on track and calling it out.
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  3. #288
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    I think Marvel stated that Renew Your Vows was the return of the marriage. I don't believe Marvel has any interest in bringing the marriage bakc.

  4. #289
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lee View Post
    You asked questions. You said you didn't understand what the issue was. I answered your questions. I clarified what I thought was already clear, already spelled out in my previous posts. You're taking issue with me answering questions you asked. If you don't want someone to answer your questions then don't ask the questions.

    Is this not a non-toxic campaign?
    I want to see an actual point rather than jumping in on fact checks from you. They don't really help anyone when the main thrust of Garlador's post is clear on what he wants to do, and it's rarely acknowledged in an honest manner for debate.

    Is it toxic to question your intentions? Seems fairly sensitive to be that way if so, but I will refrain if you really don't like it.

  5. #290
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    ^^^ Was it a fact check? Clarifying the wording Dan Slott used as someone appeared to take his original wording out of context?

    LOL! Sensitive he says!

    Don't refrain! We need all inputs on this subject!

  6. #291
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    Quote Originally Posted by shooshoomanjoe View Post
    I think Marvel stated that Renew Your Vows was the return of the marriage. I don't believe Marvel has any interest in bringing the marriage bakc.
    Marvel is already bringing the marraige back. Ultimate Spider-man will be here January 2024 and if you have any interest at all in an alternate take to Spider-man, you should give it a try!

    You can even save a few sheckles by subscribing directly to the title (45% off)!

    How's that for unabashed hype in the Mighty Marvel Manner!!
    Last edited by wleakr; 11-28-2023 at 03:26 PM.

  7. #292
    Mighty Member Garlador's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shooshoomanjoe View Post
    I think Marvel stated that Renew Your Vows was the return of the marriage. I don't believe Marvel has any interest in bringing the marriage bakc.
    Renew Your Vows is great, though I got into it after it was already cancelled and was not buying any comics at the time, unfortunately.

    That said, RYV is not really what I would want the 616 to do. It has a lot of foundational issues I'm not really a fan of - up to and including a world where many other heroes have been killed off, very annoying time-skips, and the fact that it's ultimately NOT a Peter Parker book but a team family superhero book a'la The Incredibles. That's nice, and I do recommend it, but it's like asking for a hamburger and getting a chicken sandwich and being told "it's bread with meat in the middle, close enough".

    Ultimate Spider-Man is, honestly, going to share a lot of these same issues for those - like MYSELF - that would prefer the 616 get back on track. I'm actually not remotely as interested in 616 jumping ahead to middle-age with a bunch of kids at this stage of his life, to the surprise of some. I only want the 616 story to organically move forward, however that path may be unfolded.

    Ultimate Spider-Man is, however, 1) a pro-marriage book, 2) attached to a great writer, 3) a marriage AU book for fans to rally behind, per Slott's recommendation, so it ticks off enough boxes for this campaign to 100% endorse.

    It is NOT a substitute for getting the 616 marriage back. It is, however, a potentially wonderful alternative and hopeful compliment to it.
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  8. #293
    Ultimate Member WebLurker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shooshoomanjoe View Post
    I think Marvel stated that Renew Your Vows was the return of the marriage. I don't believe Marvel has any interest in bringing the marriage bakc.
    I'd agree that current management has no interest in bringing back the marriage to the 616 comics. Heck, by their own admission, they badly want to keep it out of 616. Have seen a lot of recent comments from the Powers That Be across the internet that, while the marriage should never be "canon" again, it's a good AU story, and, agree or disagree, they have been making stuff like the RYV series and upcoming USM 2.0. So, yeah, pretty sure they see AU series as being the only way the marriage can and should come back.

    Whether more coordinated campaigning could change that remains to be seen (given the repeated statement that erasing the marriage was not a sales thing and the consistent messaging that the Marvel brass disagree with certain fans that the marriage should come back and that the OMD status quo is the way things should be), but it's not like we have anything to lose and, while not always, campaigns sometimes work. (IMHO, things aren't going to change until we have a change in management, but, at the very least, we can get a showing that we're not just bots or something.)
    Doctor Strange: "You are the right person to replace Logan."
    X-23: "I know there are people who disapprove... Guys on the Internet mainly."
    (All-New Wolverine #4)

  9. #294
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaitou D. Kid View Post
    From a legal standpoint, yes. But we're not talking about the legal nature of Peter's relationships here.



    A serious relationship is any relationship where two people are looking for something long-term and intend to make it happen. Whether or not it doesn't last long doesn't mean it wasn't serious.

    Pre-OMD Peter has treated every relationship he's been in as serious, except for arguably Black Cat. He thought of proposing and marrying Betty, Gwen, and later MJ before they actually got married.
    He also imagined himself and Felicia married with children. She's also the first of his love interests he revealed his secret identity to.

  10. #295
    Mighty Member Garlador's Avatar
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    Poking around here for ideas, but it's becoming quite clear that the Discord is growing faster than I anticipated and we need to pursue additional ways of building off of this momentum. To those ends, I'm considering options such as podcasts or Youtube videos for fans, readers, and casual viewers to follow along with so it's not exclusively "invitation only". I also have a few Spider-Man writers considering talking about their own thoughts on the marriage, the state of the industry, and sharing their thoughts on what needs to happen next, and I don't want to lock something that big behind a Discord wall. That deserves a more professional, public-facing platform.

    So I'm open to thoughts.
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  11. #296
    Astonishing Member CaptainUniverse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Garlador View Post
    Poking around here for ideas, but it's becoming quite clear that the Discord is growing faster than I anticipated and we need to pursue additional ways of building off of this momentum. To those ends, I'm considering options such as podcasts or Youtube videos for fans, readers, and casual viewers to follow along with so it's not exclusively "invitation only". I also have a few Spider-Man writers considering talking about their own thoughts on the marriage, the state of the industry, and sharing their thoughts on what needs to happen next, and I don't want to lock something that big behind a Discord wall. That deserves a more professional, public-facing platform.

    So I'm open to thoughts.
    Youtube would probably be the way to go if you are looking for something that'll be accessible to everyone.
    "The Enigma Force is not a tool to be manipulated by mortals. The Enigma Force comes to those it deems worthy. What temerity, what arrogance, makes you think you are worthy? Have you not all made mistakes? Unforgiveable ones?" - Captain Universe

    "Call me an Avenging Angel, Baron, come to safeguard Earth...call me CAPTAIN UNIVERSE!" - Ray Coffin

    "You're my heart, Mary Jane Watson...you're my jackpot." - Peter Parker

  12. #297
    Astonishing Member Tuck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Garlador View Post
    I also have a few Spider-Man writers considering talking about their own thoughts on the marriage, the state of the industry, and sharing their thoughts on what needs to happen next, and I don't want to lock something that big behind a Discord wall.
    While it would be interesting to hear what they have to say, I would assume Marvel is aware of their thoughts. Not sure how it boosts the argument to be made to Marvel.

  13. #298
    Mighty Member Garlador's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tuck View Post
    While it would be interesting to hear what they have to say, I would assume Marvel is aware of their thoughts. Not sure how it boosts the argument to be made to Marvel.
    Certainly wouldn't be for Marvel's sake. This is about outreach, having other fans and readers become aware and getting onboard, building momentum, and continuing to amplify one another's voices.

    To compare to other advocacy I'm involved in, most politicians are largely aware of the position of major civic leaders during social movements. Their stance is clear. The goal is to create wider exposure and bolster support so that one voice becomes many, until there is a large enough influence that those against their demands ultimately acquiesce to public pressure for the betterment of all.
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  14. #299
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tuck View Post
    While it would be interesting to hear what they have to say, I would assume Marvel is aware of their thoughts. Not sure how it boosts the argument to be made to Marvel.
    I mean with this kind of campaign, I assume one purpose of the campaign is to build press around the fact that the campaign is happening. And the more press that exists, the more theoretical pressure exists on marvel. I mean marvel doesn't actually have to change anything about their process ever. I'm unsure what changes marvel made after ASM#26. And that was probably one of the most reprehensible comics I've read in the past like 5 years. (While also generating a bunch of negative press)

    But a bunch of writers formally speaking out in video recorded interviews about the marriage as a part of a larger internet campaign would certainly generate headlines. And those headlines could help bolster the number of people writing into the campaign as well.

  15. #300
    Ultimate Member Mister Mets's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainUniverse View Post
    Youtube would probably be the way to go if you are looking for something that'll be accessible to everyone.
    It might be worth reaching out to commentators who like the spider-marriage.
    Sincerely,
    Thomas Mets

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