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  1. #46
    Spectacular Member Ubauba01's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tuck View Post
    60% of American men in their 20s are single right now. But I wouldn't use that reality to ignore a key element of both Spider-Man books and Peter's personality . . . that he clearly wants to be in a relationship.
    I think there is probably something wrong about those stats. Pretty sure many people still date but dating is different than marriage and having kids.

  2. #47
    Mighty Member Garlador's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ubauba01 View Post
    Also remember if it was solely about the character's progress through life, then Peter would grow old and die. I guess I just don't care much for the marriage part of the character pprogress. Nowadays, many people don't have a strong desire to marry and have kids, birth rates are below replacement rate in many countries.
    “Marriage” and “children” are separate statistics. Checking the census stats, marriage rates have been rather consistent since 2010, while birth rates have drastically lowered.

    Chiefly, concerning the topic of marriage, there are a surplus of foundational stories of Peter himself clearly stating HE WANTS MARRIAGE. He’s was trying to propose back in the 60s. He tried repeatedly in the 70s. He succeeded in the 80s. He was happy in his marriage until the late 2000s. He’s been back to wanting to propose again in the 2010s and 2020s.


    The character at every decade of his existence has desired marriage. It’s not just something fans want; it’s what PETER wants. It’s what he’s strongly desires for nearly 60 years of established history.
    Last edited by Garlador; 10-31-2023 at 09:44 AM.
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  3. #48
    Astonishing Member Tuck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ubauba01 View Post
    I think there is probably something wrong about those stats. Pretty sure many people still date but dating is different than marriage and having kids.
    I don't know the details behind how the numbers were attained, but they are out of sync with women in their 20s. (They're with older men.)

    I'm too lazy to dig up any of the articles. There were a bunch of them a few months ago about this.

  4. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tuck View Post
    60% of American men in their 20s are single right now. But I wouldn't use that reality to ignore a key element of both Spider-Man books and Peter's personality . . . that he clearly wants to be in a relationship.
    I think the thing is that yeah, less people are married. And divorce is far more common today than in the past. But that has a lot to do with personal freedom for women. Like women are far more mobile and able to leave toxic relationships than they were in the past. It's not like there is a massive movement of polyamorous zoomers running around. (probably more than in the past but still) People for the most part still want long term, stable relationships imo. They're just more free to find something that is healthy for them. And dating apps and the like encourage people not to "settle" which has a wide range of implications on all of this beyond "20 somethings dont want this in there media".

    The other thing is that Spider-Man is supposed to be relatable to people. But relatable in an aspirational sense. So the question isn't "are men in their 20s currently married". The question is moreso "do men want to have long term relationships / be married?" And I think the answer to that is a resounding 'yeah pretty much'. I mean I'm in my 20s and that's what I want. And it's generally a pretty common thing amongst people that I know.

    Also there are entire internet movements dedicated to the despair 20 something men feel about not being able to form meaningful connections with women. And those movements are generally pretty toxic and feeding grounds for radicalization. But on the whole, they do reflect a wider anxiety that 20 somethings feel about not being able to build those connections.

  5. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ubauba01 View Post
    Marriage is better as alternate timeline stuff IMO (Spider-Girl, RYW, Peter B Parker).

    Maybe I think so because most Spider-Man comics I read were BND.
    An interesting thing with BND, and a lot of the post-OMD stuff that's distinct from this run, is that it made the rational decisions to not intentionally manipulate the previous MJ relationship as the current run does, but instead largely ignore it and just try to sidestep that controversy.

    I strongly believe that the average Spider-fan is more into the franchise for the action, adventure, and Peter than anything else, with the argument over MJ, OMD, and other love interests being primarily about being bored by "obligatory shallow romances" running ad infinitum as a distraction or, much more aggravatingly, having the book overrun by bad, indefensible sexist writing that uses either new female characters badly or manipulating the MJ fanbase.

    Peter's personals life is basically one of the "seasonings" of the franchise, rather than it's "meat and potatoes"... usually. Wells's current story is trying to make the "salt" the main appeal.
    Like action, adventure, rogues, and outlaws? Like anti-heroes, femme fatales, mysteries and thrillers?

    I wrote a book with them. Outlaw’s Shadow: A Sherwood Noir. Robin Hood’s evil counterpart, Guy of Gisbourne, is the main character. Feel free to give it a look: https://read.amazon.com/kp/embed?asi...E2PKBNJFH76GQP

  6. #51
    Fantastic Member Kurus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ubauba01 View Post
    Marriage is better as alternate timeline stuff IMO (Spider-Girl, RYW, Peter B Parker).

    Maybe I think so because most Spider-Man comics I read were BND.
    You should read some of the older comics. I started at jms and then kept on reading after Omd, and after reading the older comics I realized that bnd was just a pale imitation of the real thing. Why read a copycat when you can read the original.

  7. #52
    Mighty Member marvelprince's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TinkerSpider View Post
    You liked Peter having blackout drunken sex with Michelle that he can’t remember and Michelle being r*ped by deception by the Chameleon?

    You’re right, those stories probably wouldn’t be told with a married Peter. But then, they probably should never have been told with a single Peter, either.
    Drunken blackout sex with someone he’s supposed to hate is the kind of hijinks I’m here for. And her having a crush on him was funny. It definitely got gross and weird at the end with Chameleon and the brother turning evil. But yeah I would take that over MJ worries about Peter coming home safe for the millionth time. Or teasing kids you know he’s not gonna have.

  8. #53
    Mighty Member Garlador's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marvelprince View Post
    Drunken blackout sex with someone he’s supposed to hate is the kind of hijinks I’m here for. And her having a crush on him was funny. It definitely got gross and weird at the end with Chameleon and the brother turning evil. But yeah I would take that over MJ worries about Peter coming home safe for the millionth time. Or teasing kids you know he’s not gonna have.
    Reading this comment while I catch up with The Flash this year is sure something…



    MJ hasn’t been the “spend all my time worrying about Peter by the window” type in ages either. Because of, you know, character development.
    Last edited by Garlador; 10-31-2023 at 11:18 AM.
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  9. #54
    Incredible Member Knightsilver's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Garlador View Post
    Reading this comment while I catch up with The Flash this year is sure something…

    I hope Ultimate Spider-Man gives us plenty of moments like these.

  10. #55
    Astonishing Member Mercwmouth12's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Knightsilver View Post
    I hope Ultimate Spider-Man gives us plenty of moments like these.
    Doesn't count. Not 616

  11. #56
    Mighty Member Garlador's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mercwmouth12 View Post
    Doesn't count. Not 616
    I think we’re reaching a point where many would prefer a supportive Mary Jane and devoted Peter raising their kids together under the pen of a good writer “counting” more than Mary Jane sleeping with a guy with the blood of billions on his hands while Peter calls the man who murdered their infant child “like a father” to him.

    Until the 616 turns the plot around, this is the ONLY viable alternative.
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  12. #57
    Incredible Member Knightsilver's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Garlador View Post
    I think we’re reaching a point where many would prefer a supportive Mary Jane and devoted Peter raising their kids together under the pen of a good writer “counting” more than Mary Jane sleeping with a guy with the blood of billions on his hands while Peter calls the man who murdered their infant child “like a father” to him.

    Until the 616 turns the plot around, this is the ONLY viable alternative.
    Exactly. Far as I'm concerned...616 is a Mephisto created hallucination at this point.

  13. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by marvelprince View Post
    Drunken blackout sex with someone he’s supposed to hate is the kind of hijinks I’m here for. And her having a crush on him was funny. It definitely got gross and weird at the end with Chameleon and the brother turning evil. But yeah I would take that over MJ worries about Peter coming home safe for the millionth time. Or teasing kids you know he’s not gonna have.
    Since it’s been long established that Peter doesn’t drink because it interferes with his spider-sense (just another example of how BND was grossly OOC) may I gently suggest if that is what you are looking for, perhaps this isn’t the character?

    And may I also gently suggest that “MJ pines by the window” is an example of sexist writing that was decried at the time and continues to be criticized even with the characters now single, and is more a function of the lack of creativity and imagination in the writing than anything intrinsically “wrong” with the character and/or the status?

    Fun fact: when Todd McFarlane was launching his Spider-Man title, he originally had MJ sitting at home and worrying. Editor Jim Salicrup threw it back to him and said “this is Mary Jane Watson! She doesn’t sit at home!”

    We need more Jim Salicrups in charge.

    The Michelle/Chameleon scenes are outright problematic and would never be my choice no matter the alternative.
    Last edited by TinkerSpider; 10-31-2023 at 11:59 AM.
    “I always figured if I were a superhero, there’s no way on God's earth that I'm gonna pal around with some teenager."

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  14. #59
    Extraordinary Member Jman27's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by godisawesome View Post
    An interesting thing with BND, and a lot of the post-OMD stuff that's distinct from this run, is that it made the rational decisions to not intentionally manipulate the previous MJ relationship as the current run does, but instead largely ignore it and just try to sidestep that controversy.

    I strongly believe that the average Spider-fan is more into the franchise for the action, adventure, and Peter than anything else, with the argument over MJ, OMD, and other love interests being primarily about being bored by "obligatory shallow romances" running ad infinitum as a distraction or, much more aggravatingly, having the book overrun by bad, indefensible sexist writing that uses either new female characters badly or manipulating the MJ fanbase.

    Peter's personals life is basically one of the "seasonings" of the franchise, rather than it's "meat and potatoes"... usually. Wells's current story is trying to make the "salt" the main appeal.
    its a fact hell the new game is an example of this
    "He's pure power and doesn't even know it. He's the best of us."-Matt Murdock

    "I need a reason to take the mask off."-Peter Parker

    "My heart half-breaks at how easy it is to lie to him. It breaks all the way when he believes me without question." Felicia Hardy

  15. #60
    Spectacular Member MisterTorgo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Garlador View Post
    I think we’re reaching a point where many would prefer a supportive Mary Jane and devoted Peter raising their kids together under the pen of a good writer “counting” more than Mary Jane sleeping with a guy with the blood of billions on his hands while Peter calls the man who murdered their infant child “like a father” to him.

    Until the 616 turns the plot around, this is the ONLY viable alternative.
    Ugh. Every time I see someone sum it all up like that, it's like I'd somehow forgotten how repulsive it all is and it hits me anew.

    I, too, would much prefer a full retcon over an alternate universe and I hate retcons, but alas...

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