All in good fun, prove you're a cranky old DC fan

[John Venus]

The 'DC is the dark company' is weird for some of us millenials as well. I remember JLA/Avengers where it was laid out how DC was the lighter universe and Marvel was the darker one.

I remember seeing a tweet thread from Valerie D'Ozario a while back, she was an assistant editor at DC and said that part of the plan starting with 2004's Identity Crisis was to 'wipe the smile off of the DC Universe' (Didio's exact words). Link: https://www.tumblr.com/annotated-dc/...-dorazio-talks

Since the mainstream perception is that DC is the dark company and somehow Marvel is the fluffly light sugar coated company* I would say they succeeded at that.


*I really don't understand how people think the MCU is this light sugar coated universe. It's a universe where the Nazi's were secretly controlling things for a quarter of a century, heroes have lost twice (both in Civil War and Infinity War) and from phase 4 onwards is a post apocalyptic universe where half the population disappeared for 5 years and then came back. The primary hero is a former arms dealer who got a redemption arc after being caught on the wrong end of his own weapon nevermind the two assassins with a body count who are a part of the team.

[j9ac9k]

The 'DC is the dark company' is weird for some of us millenials as well. I remember JLA/Avengers where it was laid out how DC was the lighter universe and Marvel was the darker one.

I remember seeing a tweet thread from Valerie D'Ozario a while back, she was an assistant editor at DC and said that part of the plan starting with 2004's Identity Crisis was to 'wipe the smile off of the DC Universe' (Didio's exact words). Link: https://www.tumblr.com/annotated-dc/...-dorazio-talks

Since the mainstream perception is that DC is the dark company and somehow Marvel is the fluffly light sugar coated company* I would say they succeeded at that.


*I really don't understand how people think the MCU is this light sugar coated universe. It's a universe where the Nazi's were secretly controlling things for a quarter of a century, heroes have lost twice (both in Civil War and Infinity War) and from phase 4 onwards is a post apocalyptic universe where half the population disappeared for 5 years and then came back. The primary hero is a former arms dealer who got a redemption arc after being caught on the wrong end of his own weapon nevermind the two assassins with a body count who are a part of the team.

The "DC is dark" sentiment is about the movies rather than the comics. And the MCU is "sugar-coated" because the "Nazis" weren't really Nazis - they were Hydra. And we never saw them express any sentiment or agenda based on racism or anti-semitism. They were just "the bad guys." And despite the massive casualties of Infinity War, Marvel revels in bloodless deaths, which is the "sugar-coating." And while there's genuine drama, there's also a lot of jokey-jokes. DC films have introduced jokes and a lighter tone, but that came later as the image of them being dark was created by Nolan and Snyder. "Suicide Squad", "Joker" and "The Batman" certainly also reinforces the "DC is dark" image. Marvel's dark stuff was sent to Netflix and was barely connected to the MCU.

[JThree]

Everyone these days seems to have the idea that D.C. is a very dark and serious comic book company. Maybe it's all because of something that Deadpool said once. I just don't see it. Yet people think of Marvel Comics as being more light-hearted. What?

This is like being on the Bizarro World for me. It was completely the opposite when I got into comic books, back in the 1960s. D.C. was considered funny and Marvel was supposed to be serious.

At least that was the attitude that many readers had back then. I don't think Marvel was really all that serious--but their super-hero comics appealed to teen-agers--while the D.C. super-heroes mainly appealed to younger readers like me. Teen-agers tend to take everything too seriously, so I guess they thought their Marvels were very important and realistic. Reading them in hindsight, it doesn't seem that way. They seem overly mawish and soap operatic. I think Stan and his company of artists were having just as many laughs--it's the readers who didn't believe there was anything to laugh about.

Of course, as a kid, many jokes went right over my head. But I knew that the super-hero comics were supposed to be fun, for the most part. Other genres like war and romance were aimed at older readers, but I didn't bother with those. To be sure, there were several super-hero comics that gave me nightmares. Yet on the whole, I liked National Periodicals best because they were friendly and encouraged good behaviour.

Reading interviews with the old pros, they had no illusions that what they were doing was great art--or even respectable. Some didn't want to advertise what they were doing for a living. They knew that it was all kids' stuff. I think the fans that then became pros reacted against that. They didn't like the camp Batman because they didn't want to be laughed at. And I think that's what drove them in a more serious direction.

But even so, D.C. remained family friendly and upbeat through the 1970s and into the 1980s. Things darkened after that, but to my mind it has never got that dark. There have been some individual events or a cluster of titles that took themselves too seriously and not for their own good--but never enough for D.C. to have this reputation. They were never Lev Gleason comics.

And if you look at the other media, there's always a melange of different styles. For every ARROW there's a FLASH. For every JOKER there's a LEGO BATMAN. Why so serious?

Agree with you, that in the 60's and 70's DC was lighter and Marvel was darker. But that has totally flipped in the movies AND comics. It started with DC in the The Dark Knight Returns, The Killing Joke, The Cult, and other such material. They seemed to be best sellers, and DC embraced more and more over the years until we have what we have today. Marvel with the Spider Man films and the first Iron Man movie still kept a slight innocence to it all, but I would argue that it has since lost that since they are no longer keeping to the source material.

Get with the program, young ones.

Jthree

[Jim Kelly]

Agree with you, that in the 60's and 70's DC was lighter and Marvel was darker. But that has totally flipped in the movies AND comics. It started with DC in the The Dark Knight Returns, The Killing Joke, The Cult, and other such material. They seemed to be best sellers, and DC embraced more and more over the years until we have what we have today. Marvel with the Spider Man films and the first Iron Man movie still kept a slight innocence to it all, but I would argue that it has since lost that since they are no longer keeping to the source material.

Get with the program, young ones.

Jthree

It's probably just my backwards thinking, but it never feels right to me when Marvel tries to pretend they're this nice, family-friendly universe. I haven't watched many of their movies, but it seems like they're all soldiers fighting wars, where people really do get killed. In Marvel comics whenever super-heroes meet, they fight. In the Distinguished Competition's books, they would have lunch.

This goes back to the early days. In 1940, when the original Human Torch and Sub-Mariner met, it was an all-out battle. In 1940, when the Flash, Green Lantern, Doctor Fate, the Spectre, the Atom, Hawkman, Sandman, Hourman and Johnny Thunder got together, they had supper.

I grant that it shifted in recent decades, as more and more D.C. books embraced that Marvel style. But even in the darkest times, there were always funny books, funny movies, funny cartoons, funny T.V. shows.

When people say D.C. is dark--and I've heard/read references to this in just the last couple of days--they don't qualify the remark by saying they just mean the Snyderverse or they just mean Frank Miller comics. They simply refer to D.C. as dark, as if it's generally understood. Maybe they just conveniently forget all the funny stuff that contradicts that assumption.

[JThree]

It's probably just my backwards thinking, but it never feels right to me when Marvel tries to pretend they're this nice, family-friendly universe. I haven't watched many of their movies, but it seems like they're all soldiers fighting wars, where people really do get killed. In Marvel comics whenever super-heroes meet, they fight. In the Distinguished Competition's books, they would have lunch.

This goes back to the early days. In 1940, when the original Human Torch and Sub-Mariner met, it was an all-out battle. In 1940, when the Flash, Green Lantern, Doctor Fate, the Spectre, the Atom, Hawkman, Sandman, Hourman and Johnny Thunder got together, they had supper.

. But even in the darkest times, there were always funny books, funny movies, funny cartoons, funny T.V. shows.

. Maybe they just conveniently forget all the funny stuff that contradicts that assumption.

Tell this old geezer about this funny books and funny stuff that you talk about? I would still argue that "overall" DC has become dark. That the fun sense of adventure and fighting evil (like young boys would or Indiana Jones) is long gone. Tell me about these DC funny books? Refresh this old codger's memory. I may have missed my meds today while that nurse was watching the news. Tell me.

--jthree

[JThree]

OK, Mr. Kelly. Just saw the World's Funniest pages in another forum. You've reminded me. But I still wish DC and Marvel were publishing a humor book or two. Something like "What The!" or the "Inferior Five." With Mad all being in reprints we need some unseen, and/or original material. I"ll have to try[B] Angel and the Ap[/B]e sometime.

--jthree

[Jim Kelly]

OK, Mr. Kelly. Just saw the World's Funniest pages in another forum. You've reminded me. But I still wish DC and Marvel were publishing a humor book or two. Something like "What The!" or the "Inferior Five." With Mad all being in reprints we need some unseen, and/or original material. I"ll have to try Angel and the Ape sometime.

--jthree

Okay, Mr. Jthree. [Many many years ago I worked the graveyard shift at the post office and when I got off work, the security guard would say to me, "Good night, Mr. Kelly." She was an actress during the daytime, working on different movies and T.V. shows and, when I saw her at work in her uniform, she would often have different hairstyles, depending on which role she had at the time. Always gave me a kick when I'd hear her say "Good night, Mr. Kelly" as dawn was breaking.]

I was going to put together a list of post-Crisis comics that I think are upbeat. But that's not very cranky. I think I'll do it for the "open-minded" topic, if I find the time.

But from the cranky perspective, yes, it depresses me, too, that they have let go of so many other genres. No romance, very little humour, only some horror, hardly any war or western. Most of the science fiction plays fast and loose with science.

When you think about it, comics like LOVE AND ROCKETS and LIBERTY MEADOWS are the kinds of things they could have done, as evolutions from the old school romance and humour comics [edit: or romance and crime--STRANGERS IN PARADISE]. Sheldon Mayer's Scribbly was a pioneer (at the very beginning of the modern comic book in the U.S.A.) in the indie style.

If the publisher had developed these kinds of properties in the last few decades, they'd have something to fall back on when interest in super-heroes dried up.

[JThree]

Okay, Mr. Jthree. [Many many years ago I worked the graveyard shift at the post office and when I got off work, the security guard would say to me, "Good night, Mr. Kelly." She was an actress during the daytime, working on different movies and T.V. shows and, when I saw her at work in her uniform, she would often have different hairstyles, depending on which role she had at the time. Always gave me a kick when I'd hear her say "Good night, Mr. Kelly" as dawn was breaking.]

I was going to put together a list of post-Crisis comics that I think are upbeat. But that's not very cranky. I think I'll do it for the "open-minded" topic, if I find the time.

But from the cranky perspective, yes, it depresses me, too, that they have let go of so many other genres. No romance, very little humour, only some horror, hardly any war or western. Most of the science fiction plays fast and loose with science.

. Sheldon Mayer's Scribbly was a pioneer (at the very beginning of the modern comic book in the U.S.A.) in the indie style.

If the publisher had developed these kinds of properties in the last few decades, they'd have something to fall back on when interest in super-heroes dried up.

Young whippersnapper, you've raised my I.Q. a few points with the last paragraphs. Not many young un's could do that. But I do wish DC would put together a trade paperback collection of Scribbly. Mr. Mayer was vastly underrated, and deserved better recognition. Some of his Sugar and Spike stories were a marvel, the way he juggled a fairly intricate plot, with the family friendly shenanigans of Sugar, Spike, and Bernie. One issue where the bad guy had a hypnotic device that "encourage" people to buy empty cardboard boxes because it told them to. Great satire on commercialization. Anyway, it took real talent to work out plots and characterization the way he did. Nice to talk to you, Mr. Kelly. You may be the hope of the nation if people give you a listen. Never heard of Strangers in Paradise. Tell me more, Mr. Kelly. Quick! Before they put me back in solitary.

--jthree

[Jim Kelly]

Asking me to write about STRANGERS IN PARADISE is a bit like asking me to write about CEREBUS. I know of them and have read some of them, but I don't have an exhaustive knowledge of them. In fact, earlier, I was trying to remember STRANGERS IN PARADISE and the name just wouldn't come into my head. It's always later, doing something else, that these things come to me. So I had to edit it in afterwards. Terry Moore has been doing that series from the mid-1990s through the early 2000s and then again more recently. At one time it was the talk of fandom--a major indie success story.

[JThree]

Humph! A few days before Thanksgiving, and not a good funny book around. Everything so serious. Want something fun I can share with the family. Well, I guess I'll have to settle for Herobear and the Kid by Mike Kunkle. Good, uplifting, positive characters. Even got a few to give away this Christmas. Back when Larry King knew Abe Lincoln, why we had no shortage of good funny books. We had Bob Hope, Jerry Lewis, Showcase, Superman (before today's writers to to 'em). Other companies had Tom N Jerry, Three Stooges, and a whole lot of other ones I can't recall without my medicine. Good wholesome moral characters who believed in being role models and the sanctity of marriage. Not like today. No sir. Just saw the covers for some upcoming comic books, why they could give me nightmares. Well, this old coot wishes all of you a Good Thanksgiving, some good pumpkin pie, and may you all be safe.

---this old coot,
Jthree

[JThree]

--Back Again. Got away from roommate for a moment. Where was I? Eh.... Back when comics were good, and we liked them. Back when Teddy was going up that hill, we had to be careful about our comics. They came in brown boxes by some train eh.... stagecoach, and they were stacked with other magazines and periodicals. We had to go to our drugstores or mom and pop grocery's and wait for the lady to put them out. And boy, did she get perplexed at us waiting around. Later, we had to march several miles in the snow to the local comic book store, while the comic book store owner laughed at us, while we put our cold shivering faces against the window. You know the type, you see him every week on the Simpsons. Eh...... Anyway in those days, when we got our shipments by stagecoach, they came every late Tuesday. Not Mondays, like in the big city, but Tuesdays after everyone else. You see, out little outpost was the last place for delivery by the pony express. We were only thirty miles from the state border, and we were off the beaten path. People laughed at us because we were only the last to get comics. Anyhoo. .. . You had to be careful. If you missed an issue, you missed an issue. There was no internet or "connections" or people to tell you who to write to for back issues. When we read comics, we kind of ignored the ads, unless they were ads for toys. Those were great. They had great toys back than. Major Matt Mason, Hot Wheels, not like today, where you can't move the arms or legs of action figures. They're so stiff. Why these modern kids couldn't tell a good toy from a bad one. Back than, we had Captain Action and Major Matt Mason. Real Toys. Not like what what's being sold today. Sad. Pitiful. And we weren't afraid to take them out of the boxes and actually play with them. Sure, we lost thousands of dollars over that, if we knew what they would be worth today. But we didn't know they would be discontinued and such. No. Eh. Where was I? Oh, you had to be careful not to miss a comic book issue, because if you missed it, you missed it. I remember back when I missed a Batman Blockbuster Christmas issue. (No Batman issue for two months on the newstands). What happened? It took me fifteen years to see it in a comics store outside of Washington DC. Kids are spoiled these days, They didn't have to struggle to find back issues. No today, everything is so easy. Just go order on eBay and internet. Where's the fun in that today? Back then, there was a stigma in getting and reading comic books. "You'll wind up a bum," they said. "You should be reading Dickens and Shakespeare," they said. I did just fine reading comic books. Eh.... It's dinner time here at the home. Gotta go now. All the good orange jellos will be gone if you don't get there first.

--jthree