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  1. #61
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IamnotJudasTraveller View Post
    I'm reminded of an author that did a highly controversial event, around 5 years ago, where it at least seemed not a whole lot of people were pleased, and was reviewed as highly controversial. Either way, people were reacting so strongly to it, we did hear about this guy having trouble finding work in the coming years, or people not wanting to check out whatever he'd make, since it seemed like he had salted the earth.

    This writer's name was Nick Spencer.
    That did kind of remind me of how in Spencer's FalCap run it felt like Sam kept losing or was a constant underdog no matter how hard he tried.

    Although I do feel like he had more integrity or strength of character than Wells' Peter.

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by IamnotJudasTraveller View Post
    I'm reminded of an author that did a highly controversial event, around 5 years ago, where it at least seemed not a whole lot of people were pleased, and was reviewed as highly controversial. Either way, people were reacting so strongly to it, we did hear about this guy having trouble finding work in the coming years, or people not wanting to check out whatever he'd make, since it seemed like he had salted the earth.

    This writer's name was Nick Spencer.
    That controversy was before people read the story. After the story, the controversy faded.

    On the other hand, Wells has been on the title for a year and a half and the run has gone from bad to worse, especially in public opinion (check out the review sites).
    “I always figured if I were a superhero, there’s no way on God's earth that I'm gonna pal around with some teenager."

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  3. #63
    Wig Over The Hoodie Style IamnotJudasTraveller's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TinkerSpider View Post
    That controversy was before people read the story. After the story, the controversy faded.
    I remember some people basically decrying what they saw as "course correction" and "an ending that pleased nobody" as Secret Empire wrapped, peppered with the usual conspiracy theories of "Spencer wanted Steve to die and for Sam to take over the mantle but Marvel didn't let him!" and such, and with the leaks that Spencer would go over to Spider-Man, the average reaction were the predictable "apply Hydra Cap on Spider-Man where possible" parallels, courtesy of some hopefuls who had read Superior Foes and hoped he'd do better on Spidey.

    One way or another, you had a writer who penned a decidedly divisive storyline, for better or worse, who became a fan favorite on his next run. I doubt Wells will have trouble finding work, or maybe even managing to get so much favor from another corner of the comics universe (but wouldn't hold my breath).

    And opinion changes so quickly, I saw a couple of people in other places begin to go "this proves Peter and MJ are already getting back together! This wasn't all bad after all" just because she embraced Peter in the finale to the Goblin arc. So, in my opinion, I don't think it'll be that hard for history to repeat itself.
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  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    Spider-Man landed a kick on a bad guy. Isn't that great, guys!?
    Certainly, that's something to celebrate. Is this the first run that will have no representation on those cool 'Spider-man Feats' threads??? I mean, Spidey looks almost like a regular, powerless guy sometimes.

  5. #65
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vhm74 View Post
    Certainly, that's something to celebrate. Is this the first run that will have no representation on those cool 'Spider-man Feats' threads??? I mean, Spidey looks almost like a regular, powerless guy sometimes.
    He has that Spider Backpack thing! And that drone that always gets destroyed! That's cool, right!?

  6. #66
    Astonishing Member Mercwmouth12's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    He has that Spider Backpack thing! And that drone that always gets destroyed! That's cool, right!?
    I think Wells just dropped those from being used moving forward

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by IamnotJudasTraveller View Post
    I remember some people basically decrying what they saw as "course correction" and "an ending that pleased nobody" as Secret Empire wrapped, peppered with the usual conspiracy theories of "Spencer wanted Steve to die and for Sam to take over the mantle but Marvel didn't let him!" and such, and with the leaks that Spencer would go over to Spider-Man, the average reaction were the predictable "apply Hydra Cap on Spider-Man where possible" parallels, courtesy of some hopefuls who had read Superior Foes and hoped he'd do better on Spidey.

    One way or another, you had a writer who penned a decidedly divisive storyline, for better or worse, who became a fan favorite on his next run. I doubt Wells will have trouble finding work, or maybe even managing to get so much favor from another corner of the comics universe (but wouldn't hold my breath).

    And opinion changes so quickly, I saw a couple of people in other places begin to go "this proves Peter and MJ are already getting back together! This wasn't all bad after all" just because she embraced Peter in the finale to the Goblin arc. So, in my opinion, I don't think it'll be that hard for history to repeat itself.
    Wells will get work, in fact he has work. Or he did, whatever happened to the Disney+ Marvel Zombies animated series anyway? I guess the strikes caused things to go quiet.

    My point is that the current ASM run is not analogous to Secret Empire. People were upset by the concept of Cap saying "Hail Hydra." Then they read the story and the controversy faded.

    But people have read the Wells run. It's a reaction to what is actually on the page, rather than getting angry because it's suggested that Cap, whose raison d'etre is punching Nazis, MIGHT be the Marvel equivalent of one.
    “I always figured if I were a superhero, there’s no way on God's earth that I'm gonna pal around with some teenager."

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  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by TinkerSpider View Post
    Wells will get work, in fact he has work. Or he did, whatever happened to the Disney+ Marvel Zombies animated series anyway? I guess the strikes caused things to go quiet.

    My point is that the current ASM run is not analogous to Secret Empire. People were upset by the concept of Cap saying "Hail Hydra." Then they read the story and the controversy faded.

    But people have read the Wells run. It's a reaction to what is actually on the page, rather than getting angry because it's suggested that Cap, whose raison d'etre is punching Nazis, MIGHT be the Marvel equivalent of one.
    Like the Cap hail hydra moment is essentially the equivalent of ASM #1, which ends with MJ hugging Paul and the kids. They are both shocking moments in comics imo, that invite the question of how/why is this happening? At this point, however, that ASM issue was published a year and a half ago. And the rest of the run is *worse* than that moment.

  9. #69
    Mighty Member Garlador's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moxxi517 View Post
    Like the Cap hail hydra moment is essentially the equivalent of ASM #1, which ends with MJ hugging Paul and the kids. They are both shocking moments in comics imo, that invite the question of how/why is this happening? At this point, however, that ASM issue was published a year and a half ago. And the rest of the run is *worse* than that moment.
    This is a pretty astute observation on the controversy and fall-out.

    "Hydra Cap" had some sharp, negative reactions... but, ostensibly, they were by design. "Hydra Cap" was a perversion of one of the best heroes in comics, a walking affront to everything heroic, noble, and good about the character and superheroes in general. You SHOULD detest this twist. By design, it's meant to anger and repulse, but it also exists as a mirror contrast to what the REAL Captain America stands for, with the REAL Steve ultimately putting his darker doppelganger in his place. We root for our hero to fix this abomination of a status quo change because that's the exact story that's being told.

    But Mary Jane with Paul and the kids? That has the exact same repulsive response. It's "wrong" because we know the characters - even discarding the pre-OMD status quo (but ESPECIALLY wrong knowing it). Like Hydra Cap, it feels like a perversion of one of the most celebrated relationships in the comic medium, a middle-finger to all the fans and readers who championed their love forward through thick and thin. But UNLIKE Hydra Cap, Spider-Man editorial insisted Paul was a "good guy" and "misunderstood" and that Mary Jane "did nothing wrong" and that we're asked to believe all of this is a sad but acceptable status quo change. Like the Hydra Cap story, we're rooting for the "real" Peter and Mary Jane to act like we expect given their decades of history, but UNLIKE Hydra Cap, there is no triumphant moment of our heroes overcoming their twisted, out-of-character selves to restore things to their proper place.

    So, yeah, Hydra Cap caused outrage for the purpose of character deconstruction that served to elevate its main characters. Dead Language caused outrage for the purpose of making Peter Parker miserable, again, and ignoring decades of Mary Jane's history, bringing everyone down and leaving them that way as the new "status quo" for a painfully long period while they go about doing other things with Rek-Rap and Gang War. There's no triumph here, and we all keep waiting for our "Hydra" to be defeated while the actual people in charge are telling us the Hydra here isn't the villain and our hero is mistaken for even confronting it.
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  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Garlador View Post
    This is a pretty astute observation on the controversy and fall-out.

    "Hydra Cap" had some sharp, negative reactions... but, ostensibly, they were by design. "Hydra Cap" was a perversion of one of the best heroes in comics, a walking affront to everything heroic, noble, and good about the character and superheroes in general. You SHOULD detest this twist. By design, it's meant to anger and repulse, but it also exists as a mirror contrast to what the REAL Captain America stands for, with the REAL Steve ultimately putting his darker doppelganger in his place. We root for our hero to fix this abomination of a status quo change because that's the exact story that's being told.

    But Mary Jane with Paul and the kids? That has the exact same repulsive response. It's "wrong" because we know the characters - even discarding the pre-OMD status quo (but ESPECIALLY wrong knowing it). Like Hydra Cap, it feels like a perversion of one of the most celebrated relationships in the comic medium, a middle-finger to all the fans and readers who championed their love forward through thick and thin. But UNLIKE Hydra Cap, Spider-Man editorial insisted Paul was a "good guy" and "misunderstood" and that Mary Jane "did nothing wrong" and that we're asked to believe all of this is a sad but acceptable status quo change. Like the Hydra Cap story, we're rooting for the "real" Peter and Mary Jane to act like we expect given their decades of history, but UNLIKE Hydra Cap, there is no triumphant moment of our heroes overcoming their twisted, out-of-character selves to restore things to their proper place.

    So, yeah, Hydra Cap caused outrage for the purpose of character deconstruction that served to elevate its main characters. Dead Language caused outrage for the purpose of making Peter Parker miserable, again, and ignoring decades of Mary Jane's history, bringing everyone down and leaving them that way as the new "status quo" for a painfully long period while they go about doing other things with Rek-Rap and Gang War. There's no triumph here, and we all keep waiting for our "Hydra" to be defeated while the actual people in charge are telling us the Hydra here isn't the villain and our hero is mistaken for even confronting it.
    One observation I would make is that I don’t think Wells had any solid plan for Paul and the kids beyond using them as an upsetting hook with the audience, and then playing it off however seemed best afterwards, rather than planning for them as any kind of specific status quo change with a goal. This lack of long term goal with them arguably means that the specific “message” of the arc is something more like “This is how you use MJ!” in terms of function, rather any grand statement about her, Peter, or the mythos.

    The strange determination to never give Paul any last name or real personality, and the sheer apathy about the kids to the extent that Wells couldn’t even properly remember their names all points to this story being both a means and an end - the inherently frustrating, shallow and tripe drama is both the question and the answer to their existence, and in some ways the sheer shallowness is supposed to be part of the appeal because it signals how “replicable” this formula of “Parker Luck” should be.

    Hydra Cap was an entire developed idea with an end distinct from its means; this is just lazy drama for the sake of lazy drama.
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  11. #71
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TinkerSpider View Post
    Wells will get work, in fact he has work. Or he did, whatever happened to the Disney+ Marvel Zombies animated series anyway? I guess the strikes caused things to go quiet.

    My point is that the current ASM run is not analogous to Secret Empire. People were upset by the concept of Cap saying "Hail Hydra." Then they read the story and the controversy faded.

    But people have read the Wells run. It's a reaction to what is actually on the page, rather than getting angry because it's suggested that Cap, whose raison d'etre is punching Nazis, MIGHT be the Marvel equivalent of one.
    Not really. People complained right up to the point where Marvel had to leak the ending to the final issue with the real Steve Rogers coming back.

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    Not really. People complained right up to the point where Marvel had to leak the ending to the final issue with the real Steve Rogers coming back.
    Of course people complained about the story, they read comics and go online, that’s what they do.

    But the hot anger, the “Cap was created by two Jewish men, how dare you, etc,” the calls for Spencer’s head, pretty much went away once the story direction was made clear, IIRC.

    I’m going off anecdotal evidence and my memory, both of which are imperfect, but I was not a part of Cap/Avengers social media when the Hail Hydra moment broke - and it was a firestorm that couldn’t be escaped across the general pop culture channels.

    By the time the story ended, it was barely a blip outside the Cap/Avengers socials.

    Regardless, IMO the original point remains: people were angry at Secret Empire because of what they THOUGHT the story was about.

    People are angry at the Wells run because they KNOW what the story is.

    One is pre-the story arc concluding.

    The other is after the story arc concluded.

    There’s a big difference.

    Quote Originally Posted by godisawesome View Post
    One observation I would make is that I don’t think Wells had any solid plan for Paul and the kids beyond using them as an upsetting hook with the audience, and then playing it off however seemed best afterwards, rather than planning for them as any kind of specific status quo change with a goal. This lack of long term goal with them arguably means that the specific “message” of the arc is something more like “This is how you use MJ!” in terms of function, rather any grand statement about her, Peter, or the mythos.

    The strange determination to never give Paul any last name or real personality, and the sheer apathy about the kids to the extent that Wells couldn’t even properly remember their names all points to this story being both a means and an end - the inherently frustrating, shallow and tripe drama is both the question and the answer to their existence, and in some ways the sheer shallowness is supposed to be part of the appeal because it signals how “replicable” this formula of “Parker Luck” should be.

    Hydra Cap was an entire developed idea with an end distinct from its means; this is just lazy drama for the sake of lazy drama.
    QFT. All of it.

    But you are being kind calling this drama, even lazy. It’s just there to provoke a meta response in the audience. There’s no actual storytelling attached to it.
    Last edited by TinkerSpider; 10-29-2023 at 10:16 PM.
    “I always figured if I were a superhero, there’s no way on God's earth that I'm gonna pal around with some teenager."

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  13. #73
    Astonishing Member ARkadelphia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by godisawesome View Post
    One observation I would make is that I don’t think Wells had any solid plan for Paul and the kids beyond using them as an upsetting hook with the audience, and then playing it off however seemed best afterwards, rather than planning for them as any kind of specific status quo change with a goal. This lack of long term goal with them arguably means that the specific “message” of the arc is something more like “This is how you use MJ!” in terms of function, rather any grand statement about her, Peter, or the mythos.

    The strange determination to never give Paul any last name or real personality, and the sheer apathy about the kids to the extent that Wells couldn’t even properly remember their names all points to this story being both a means and an end - the inherently frustrating, shallow and tripe drama is both the question and the answer to their existence, and in some ways the sheer shallowness is supposed to be part of the appeal because it signals how “replicable” this formula of “Parker Luck” should be.

    Hydra Cap was an entire developed idea with an end distinct from its means; this is just lazy drama for the sake of lazy drama.
    Paul has a last name. It’s Rabin. An important fact given that he’s the son of a major antagonist in Wells’ Spider-Man work.
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  14. #74
    Incredible Member Daibhidh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ARkadelphia View Post
    Paul has a last name. It’s Rabin. An important fact given that he’s the son of a major antagonist in Wells’ Spider-Man work.
    The only people treating it as important are the people who are die-hard haters of the current status quo. What actual character beat, apart from that one scene or plot point where it's revealed and Paul punches Peter, has so far depended on Paul being the villain's son?
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  15. #75
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TinkerSpider View Post
    Of course people complained about the story, they read comics and go online, that’s what they do.

    But the hot anger, the “Cap was created by two Jewish men, how dare you, etc,” the calls for Spencer’s head, pretty much went away once the story direction was made clear, IIRC.

    I’m going off anecdotal evidence and my memory, both of which are imperfect, but I was not a part of Cap/Avengers social media when the Hail Hydra moment broke - and it was a firestorm that couldn’t be escaped across the general pop culture channels.

    By the time the story ended, it was barely a blip outside the Cap/Avengers socials.

    Regardless, IMO the original point remains: people were angry at Secret Empire because of what they THOUGHT the story was about.

    People are angry at the Wells run because they KNOW what the story is.

    One is pre-the story arc concluding.

    The other is after the story arc concluded.

    There’s a big difference.
    From what I remember there were still a lot of complaints and people unhappy (along with all the other replacement storylines going on at the time) even if some were still suggesting it would all be fixed by the end, but then Secret Empire happened, people kept complaining, they downplayed Hydra as being Nazi's, and they had to leak the ending early.

    I have no illusions Wells will do much "fixing" by the time his run is over.

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