Tim Drake where is his place in DC?

[godisawesome]

All the sales numbers are still available at Comichron. He sold around 29 to 34k units. It was exactly that, not a bad seller nor a great one.

But to be fair, most books, even at Marvel, weren't selling much. If you look at May 2011, when Flashpoint released, not a single book sold more than 100k units, not even the first issue of event that would reboot the DC universe.

Yeah; all the DC books, even the most elite at the time, were found to have inadequate sales by Didio and co. because ALL sales were and remain inadequate in the industry. Grant Morrison's Batman Inc. was in every way a total and genre-defining success (good enough to be a best seller and get college dissertations written about it)... and it still got put in a massive hiatus at the time. Dick as Batman was also an complete success... and he got relaunched back into a B-line title anyways.

It's why the reception of the book matters so much more. The Red Robin solo was a success in that since, and different enough in premise and reception to make it a poor companion for the New 52 version of the character - sort of like how, oddly enough, Jason Todd's still villainous role in Pre-Flashpoint comics makes a bad companion for his more successful New 52 Anti-hero, given how even Grant Morrison's version was largely disliked even if he functionally worked for Batman Inc.

[Godlike13]

The Red Robin book's reception was positive within Tim's dwindling fan base, but failed to reach beyond that. In other words die hard Tim fans liked it, but it didn't really catch beyond that with general audiences or comic fans in the middle. But because things just got worse people look back at it as better then it was. It was fine. But when launching a new persona you need more then fine. It also doesn't really hold up that well as it didn't seem to really know all the story beats it was trying to follow. For instance Tim finding the Bat cave in the middle east doesn't actually make any sense. Bruce never left Gotham.

Personal preference is being confuse for general preference. Like thinking Jason New 52 Anti-hero role is more successful then his more villainous role. Even though its the villainous role that has seen bigger adaptations. Die hard comic and Jason fans might like the New 52 Anti-hero role more, but the one in the middle and general audience respond more to him in a villainous role. Thats the Red Hood that reached beyond die hard comic fans, and its why Jason has taken off more then Tim has in recent years. Because Red Robin has failed to do that. With any series. While Tim's fan base just continued to dwindle and get smaller and smaller.

[OBrianTallent]

The Red Robin book's reception was positive within Tim's dwindling fan base, but failed to reach beyond that. In other words die hard Tim fans liked it, but it didn't really catch beyond that with general audiences or comic fans in the middle. But because things just got worse people look back at it as better then it was. It was fine. But when launching a new persona you need more then fine. It also doesn't really hold up that well as it didn't seem to really know all the story beats it was trying to follow. For instance Tim finding the Bat cave in the middle east doesn't actually make any sense. Bruce never left Gotham.

Personal preference is being confuse for general preference. Like thinking Jason New 52 Anti-hero role is more successful then his more villainous role. Even though its the villainous role that has seen bigger adaptations. Die hard comic and Jason fans might like the New 52 Anti-hero role more, but the one in the middle and general audience respond more to him in a villainous role. Thats the Red Hood that reached beyond die hard comic fans, and its why Jason has taken off more then Tim has in recent years. Because Red Robin has failed to do that. With any series. While Tim's fan base just continued to dwindle and get smaller and smaller.

It's interesting that you speak of others in personal preference and being confused with general preference, that is speaking in omniscient tense. What do you have to back up your claims other than your own opinion. There's been many post on here with posters' discussing their love for Tim. Red Robin ended in August of 2011...as did everything DC published at the time since it was all rebooted the very next month.

It's a genuine question...outside of your own personal disdain for Tim Drake, what evidence do you have to support your theories? Specifically, this one?

[Godlike13]

It's interesting that you speak of others in personal preference and being confused with general preference, that is speaking in omniscient tense. What do you have to back up your claims other than your own opinion. There's been many post on here with posters' discussing their love for Tim. Red Robin ended in August of 2011...as did everything DC published at the time since it was all rebooted the very next month.

It's a genuine question...outside of your own personal disdain for Tim Drake, what evidence do you have to support your theories? Specifically, this one?

Red Robin’s failure to amount to anything in and out of comics, and Tims inability to even make it 10 issues now.

[Agent Z]

The Red Robin book's reception was positive within Tim's dwindling fan base, but failed to reach beyond that. In other words die hard Tim fans liked it, but it didn't really catch beyond that with general audiences or comic fans in the middle. But because things just got worse people look back at it as better then it was. It was fine. But when launching a new persona you need more then fine. It also doesn't really hold up that well as it didn't seem to really know all the story beats it was trying to follow. For instance Tim finding the Bat cave in the middle east doesn't actually make any sense. Bruce never left Gotham.

Personal preference is being confuse for general preference. Like thinking Jason New 52 Anti-hero role is more successful then his more villainous role. Even though its the villainous role that has seen bigger adaptations. Die hard comic and Jason fans might like the New 52 Anti-hero role more, but the one in the middle and general audience respond more to him in a villainous role. Thats the Red Hood that reached beyond die hard comic fans, and its why Jason has taken off more then Tim has in recent years. Because Red Robin has failed to do that. With any series. While Tim's fan base just continued to dwindle and get smaller and smaller.

Jason has appeared as a hero/antihero in more adaptations than he has as a villain. Even Arkham Knight - where him being a villain was poorly received - had him become a hero again.

The only major adaptation that had Jason as a villain that was well received is the Under The Red Hood movie.

[HsssH]

Dick, Jason and Damian have perennial sellers. Tim does not.

For Jason I think the issue is that Under the Red Hood is still the gold standard and it is difficult for him to move past that story.

[Drako]

Jason has appeared as a hero/antihero in more adaptations than he has as a villain. Even Arkham Knight - where him being a villain was poorly received - had him become a hero again.

The only major adaptation that had Jason as a villain that was well received is the Under The Red Hood movie.

He was a villain in the Titans TV show.

[CPSparkles]

Maybe the logic is if there's no place for him as Robin and he's been unable to be given a new identity of his own, he might fare better taking someone else's?



I have wondered if Tim is a character who's time has come and gone. Not saying I want fans to be robbed of a character they like or anything, but he does seem to be really limited to a place that outgrew him years ago, if that makes any sense.

That's why I pointed out just how specific his origin story was. It was too specific and limiting. It boxes him in.

I do feel like his time has come and gone. It happens. A lot of the Characters that came out in and did fantastic in the 90's are gone today so it's not unusual for characters that sold really well in the 90's to later bomb.


I understand the logic behind an established mantle being a safer bet but that shouldn't be for a character like Tim Drake.
That argument should only be made for the Duke's and Harper Rows not for a character that has more 30 years of fandom behind them.

Tim Drake shouldn't need the safety net of an established mantle at this point

[Godlike13]

Jason has appeared as a hero/antihero in more adaptations than he has as a villain. Even Arkham Knight - where him being a villain was poorly received - had him become a hero again.

The only major adaptation that had Jason as a villain that was well received is the Under The Red Hood movie.

The Under The Red Hood movie, Arkham Knight, and the Titans tv show are Jason's biggest adaptations to date. And yes, while Arkham Knight teased him as a hero again at the very end he was a villain throughout the game. Which made up the majority of his appearance.

[Aahz]

He was a villain in the Titans TV show.

And ended up helping them again in the end.

I think at least most people that like him in Under the Red Hood, see him more as an Antihero.

I think most people that prefer him as villain want him either as antagonist for Bruce or Dick (or some other Batfamily member) but are not really interested in any stories with Jason as protagonist, which makes antihero the better if you actually want to sell comics with Jason as lead.

[Drako]

And ended up helping them again in the end.

Yes, cause that is the direction the character usually takes. If Under the Red Hood had a sequel, he would probably be an ally to Batman, in some way.

But he has to start as a villain for his arc to be meaningful and his antihero role to be compeling.

[Pohzee]

And ended up helping them again in the end.

I think at least most people that like him in Under the Red Hood, see him more as an Antihero.

I think most people that prefer him as villain want him either as antagonist for Bruce or Dick (or some other Batfamily member) but are not really interested in any stories with Jason as protagonist, which makes antihero the better if you actually want to sell comics with Jason as lead.

Some people liking him more in the villain/antagonist role doesn't mean they aren't fans of the character. That's like saying people that don't want Mr. Freeze to be a hero with an ongoing aren't real Mr. Freeze fans.

[Captain Britain of Earth 20]

Hands down Tim Drake needs to get as far from the Batman family as possible he would be the perfect candidate to become an intelligence operative that needs to take down Waller

[Pohzee]

Hands down Tim Drake needs to get as far from the Batman family as possible he would be the perfect candidate to become an intelligence operative that needs to take down Waller

He could go by the name Agent 39!

[Frontier]

I don't feel like you could have Jason as a villain again without completely resetting his character development and setting him back considerably.