Tim Drake where is his place in DC?

[Godlike13]

Doesn't necessarily mean anything for Montoya. Since becoming the Commissioner of Gotham, has she even appeared as the Question? For that matter when was the last time she did appear as the Question? It's all speculation anyways. There's obviously some here who have already set their mind to Tim being a failure no matter what, which is fine. People are entitled to their opinions. All it takes is the right creative pairing and the right story for a character to take off. However, in todays age of instant published opinion, there are people who will take every opportunity to be negative no matter what, even before anything is published.
Like I said, it's ok to not like a character and have that opinion, but for those who continually come in and do nothing but post how much contempt they have for the character, why not let those of us who like Tim discuss what we think would work and you go about your life discussing characters you actually enjoy as well.

Then why use Tim? Its not about being negative, it just a lot of these suggestions act as if Tim exists in a vacuum. You want Tim to work. Its the fans that exists in the middle that need to be convinced.

[Morgoth]

Tim is getting demoted no matter what, at this point people are just speculating on what kind of demotion would be best for him.

Which is why I don't see current Bat-Office do anything, except keeping him in his current position.
It's just this thing, that we have lots of writers/editors, who grew up reading comics with Tim, consider him the perfect Robin and are annoyed with Damian. And they desperately fight to even keep Tim around, Tynion mentioned that. Any drastic change to his character (what we are discussing here) means moving away from his basic characterisation, and the industry in general really doesn’t like this, and in this case, I think, they see this as a huge risk of completely losing Tim + the only Robin left in this scenario is Damian, and we've seen creatives, who complained about his dynamics with Batman.
So, nothing will change anytime soon. Tim will still be Robin, he will pop up in Pride specials + writers, who like him, will use him as Batman's support. I'm sure they understand the problem, but they consider the absence of any drastic solutions to be a safer option.

[Godlike13]

Which is why I don't see current Bat-Office do anything, except keeping him in his current position.
It's just this thing, that we have lots of writers/editors, who grew up reading comics with Tim, consider him the perfect Robin and are annoyed with Damian. And they desperately fight to even keep Tim around, Tynion mentioned that. Any drastic change to his character (what we are discussing here) means moving away from his basic characterisation, and the industry in general really doesn’t like this, and in this case, I think, they see this as a huge risk of completely losing Tim + the only Robin left in this scenario is Damian, and we've seen creatives, who complained about his dynamics with Batman.
So, nothing will change anytime soon. Tim will still be Robin, he will pop up in Pride specials + writers, who like him, will use him as Batman's support. I'm sure they understand the problem, but they consider the absence of any drastic solutions to be a safer option.

Robin will move on without Tim, it will eventfully be out of the Bat offices hands. Gunn with do his movie, or something, and the Bat office will then have to get on board. We kind of already are seeing that. Creatives complaining about Damian's dynamics with Batman be damn.

[Ascended]

Striping other characters of their identity to give it to Tim is a bad move imo..

Agreed. What Tim needs is to find a role of his own, not take somebody else's. There's no growth if he just becomes the new Oracle or Question, trying to take over somebody else's job because he got kicked out of his old one by Damian. No, Tim needs what Dick and Jason got, a role and purpose and name that he can own. Tim trying to take over a different mantle isn't growth, it's the same thing he's doing now but with an inevitably lesser known IP.

A new name isn't gonna pull people in; a good story behind the name will. It's not enough to slap a new mask on him and say 'done' you need to let the character take a step forward. It's a risk, but so what? At this point Tim's not a money maker, DC has little to lose. And they've proven they'll walk him back to Robin when a new direction fails, as we've seen with Red Robin and Drake.

Someone did a cool fanart for it that I found on Google.

Oh! I've seen this! Yeah, it's good.

I like the idea of Tim taking on a more pulp flavored vibe. It's a bit unique compared to the other Bat books these days, and I think Tim fits the mold really, really well. Anyone read Dark Horse's Black Beetle by Francesco Francavilla? Get that dude, Beetle was amazing.

Since Nightwing and Red Hood were minor, relatively unknown masks before Dick and Jason took them, what about Tim being the Phantasm?

[Rac7d*]

Robin will move on without Tim, it will eventfully be out of the Bat offices hands. Gunn with do his movie, or something, and the Bat office will then have to get on board. We kind of already are seeing that. Creatives complaining about Damian's dynamics with Batman be damn.

Once that live action Damian is cast the clock starts to tick for him

[the illustrious mr. kenway]

Agreed. What Tim needs is to find a role of his own, not take somebody else's. There's no growth if he just becomes the new Oracle or Question, trying to take over somebody else's job because he got kicked out of his old one by Damian. No, Tim needs what Dick and Jason got, a role and purpose and name that he can own. Tim trying to take over a different mantle isn't growth, it's the same thing he's doing now but with an inevitably lesser known IP.

A new name isn't gonna pull people in; a good story behind the name will. It's not enough to slap a new mask on him and say 'done' you need to let the character take a step forward. It's a risk, but so what? At this point Tim's not a money maker, DC has little to lose. And they've proven they'll walk him back to Robin when a new direction fails, as we've seen with Red Robin and Drake.



Oh! I've seen this! Yeah, it's good.

I like the idea of Tim taking on a more pulp flavored vibe. It's a bit unique compared to the other Bat books these days, and I think Tim fits the mold really, really well. Anyone read Dark Horse's Black Beetle by Francesco Francavilla? Get that dude, Beetle was amazing.

Since Nightwing and Red Hood were minor, relatively unknown masks before Dick and Jason took them, what about Tim being the Phantasm?

Sure but do you wanna have Andrea Beaumont/the masked phantasm as a mentor? I think she entered canon with King's Batman/Catwoman run. There's also Danny Chase but does anyone miss him?

[Pohzee]

I must say that I don't hate the Gray Ghost name or concept designs, though every other scenario of him taking on an established mantle or Nightwing/Robin-derivative name makes me wince.

[CPSparkles]

What is it with people wanting Tim to take over mantles that belong to others?
Nightwing
Oracle
Gray Ghost
Question
Blue Beetle

Why and what happens to the characters who currently hold that mantle?
Are fans simply looking for ways to keep a nostalgic character around or do you all think that Tim will genuimly refresh/enrich the role. Giving us something that can't be done with the current holders.

It's pointless having Tim become the Question and go on to deliver the same type stories we had with Renee.
There has to be a good reason to justify continued investment in a character that's not selling well or adding something to the narrative.

The thread is asking what's Tim's Place in the Universe. Doubt Tim's place is to occupy positions already held by others if for no other reason than they are already occupied.

When Tim was introduced, it was to fill a very specific void and the reasons for why he was in the Robin suit was justified narratively because of the way things were at that particular time in Batman's world.

It was a maybe a tad too specific.

However as the world evolved that purpose is gone. He feels superfluous and directionless.

Tim's intro laid the foundation for him retiring from heroics so have him do that. He goes back to civilian life having helped Batman through a hard spell when he didn't have his battalion to call on and no kids living at home.

This stasis that DC has him in is doing more harm than being in limbo.
Favouritism behind the scenes led to writers resorting to lazy hacks to find ways to keep him around and shortcut him to popularity.
Every attempt at fixing him reshapes him and every time they try to make him more appealing the writing hypes him up so much that he becomes even more obxnouis.

The character is unrecognisable at this point and his writing is a turnoff.

no writer has even bothered to give us his current motivation for still remaining a vigilante or for moonlighting as Robin despite being replaced and being told by Dick Grayson of all people that Robin now belongs to Damian.

[The fact that Tim is parading around as Robin against Dick#s wishes shows just how distorted the character has become]

A lengthy absence followed by a comeback is the only way to ignite interest from apathetic readers.

He needs a breather right now. He can be brought back in a few years.

The comeback could follow Tim visiting places his folks visited in their archaeological days and solving little mysteries along the way. That's a new direction in a series that offers the hero/civilian life balance of his 90's Robin series.

[CPSparkles]

Doesn't necessarily mean anything for Montoya. Since becoming the Commissioner of Gotham, has she even appeared as the Question? For that matter when was the last time she did appear as the Question? It's all speculation anyways. There's obviously some here who have already set their mind to Tim being a failure no matter what, which is fine. People are entitled to their opinions. All it takes is the right creative pairing and the right story for a character to take off. However, in todays age of instant published opinion, there are people who will take every opportunity to be negative no matter what, even before anything is published.
Like I said, it's ok to not like a character and have that opinion, but for those who continually come in and do nothing but post how much contempt they have for the character, why not let those of us who like Tim discuss what we think would work and you go about your life discussing characters you actually enjoy as well.

Voicing concern about Tim taking over occupied and established mantles is valid. It's got nothing to do with disliking the character, contempt or seeing him as a failure.

Why should a character be shelved to make room for tim? Why can't he get a fresh one? The fact that fans keep suggesting he take over someone else's mantle is what's contemptuous.
The implication is that Tim deserves it more or that he has some right to it because.....

Disliking the suggestion that Renee Montoya vacate to make room for Tim Drake = being Negative.

That right there is the audacity of privilege.

Why do these suggestions always Tim taking over an established title? Not exactly a vote of confidence in Tim as a character.

If Tim gets another identity it should be a new one. Taking over previously used names has become a sour spot when it's Tim doing it.

[Ascended]

Sure but do you wanna have Andrea Beaumont/the masked phantasm as a mentor? I think she entered canon with King's Batman/Catwoman run. There's also Danny Chase but does anyone miss him?

I didn't know King had brought her in (dropped that run fairly fast), and haven't read much of Batman since. Has she been used at all or did it just end up being a forgotten dead end?

I thought of Phantasm just because it's a unused name with little history to it, seen even less than Nightwing and Flamebird in the Superverse. But if the character is actually being used? Forget it. If Tim picks up a mostly forgotten name then okay, Dick and Jason did the same thing and made it work. But anything with a history behind it, anything with a current (or even recent) wielder? Pass.

I can't decide if Gray Ghost is a better choice. Bat fans still remember the Phantasm movie, yet the character never transitioned to comics and outside that one story it's an open field Tim can do what he wants with. Tim might generate some interest if he took the mantle, but not suffer any real blowback for it. But maybe the Ghost is a better choice precisely because fans don't know the name, it might as well be an original title.

And no, no mentor for Tim. He's been at this long enough he doesn't need anyone teaching him. If anything, he could be teaching somebody else. Now, if he ended up with powers or something, that'd be different. I wouldn't want or expect Tim to master new super powers as if it's no big deal. I'd be fine with someone showing him the ropes in that situation. But Tim doesn't need a mentor to teach him how to vigilante.

[the illustrious mr. kenway]

I didn't know King had brought her in (dropped that run fairly fast), and haven't read much of Batman since. Has she been used at all or did it just end up being a forgotten dead end?

I thought of Phantasm just because it's a unused name with little history to it, seen even less than Nightwing and Flamebird in the Superverse. But if the character is actually being used? Forget it. If Tim picks up a mostly forgotten name then okay, Dick and Jason did the same thing and made it work. But anything with a history behind it, anything with a current (or even recent) wielder? Pass.

I can't decide if Gray Ghost is a better choice. Bat fans still remember the Phantasm movie, yet the character never transitioned to comics and outside that one story it's an open field Tim can do what he wants with. Tim might generate some interest if he took the mantle, but not suffer any real blowback for it. But maybe the Ghost is a better choice precisely because fans don't know the name, it might as well be an original title.

And no, no mentor for Tim. He's been at this long enough he doesn't need anyone teaching him. If anything, he could be teaching somebody else. Now, if he ended up with powers or something, that'd be different. I wouldn't want or expect Tim to master new super powers as if it's no big deal. I'd be fine with someone showing him the ropes in that situation. But Tim doesn't need a mentor to teach him how to vigilante.

I haven't seen news about her so I guess she only popped up there. You could still use it, I was just posting a story plot. She could still pop up as an ally of Tim but I think you could see if she might attract a following on her own?

If anything Tim could her Alfred?

[WebLurker]

What is it with people wanting Tim to take over mantles that belong to others?

Maybe the logic is if there's no place for him as Robin and he's been unable to be given a new identity of his own, he might fare better taking someone else's?

When Tim was introduced, it was to fill a very specific void and the reasons for why he was in the Robin suit was justified narratively because of the way things were at that particular time in Batman's world.

It was a maybe a tad too specific.

I have wondered if Tim is a character who's time has come and gone. Not saying I want fans to be robbed of a character they like or anything, but he does seem to be really limited to a place that outgrew him years ago, if that makes any sense.

[skyvolt2000]

Voicing concern about Tim taking over occupied and established mantles is valid. It's got nothing to do with disliking the character, contempt or seeing him as a failure.

Why should a character be shelved to make room for tim? Why can't he get a fresh one? The fact that fans keep suggesting he take over someone else's mantle is what's contemptuous.
The implication is that Tim deserves it more or that he has some right to it because.....

Disliking the suggestion that Renee Montoya vacate to make room for Tim Drake = being Negative.

That right there is the audacity of privilege.

Why do these suggestions always Tim taking over an established title? Not exactly a vote of confidence in Tim as a character.

If Tim gets another identity it should be a new one. Taking over previously used names has become a sour spot when it's Tim doing it.

Because as we have seen in comics taking over someone's mantle seems to keep you around longer than having your own name. While it seems toxic at times-it seems to keep folks around longer versus the ones MANY claim they want to have their own identity. Especial when we look at editorial and their "efforts".

In other words the folks screaming for someone to have their own ID need to show the BLEEP up and support. And that goes TRIPLE for editorial.

Lets say Tim takes over The Signal. SUDDENLY someone in editorial can find a writers for that book and don't be shocked if you saw the Moon Knight treatment of new volumes.

Do we EVEN need to go into the optics of how bad that would look? 2 years of doing nothing and suddenly Tim in the suit gets traction?

Now rinse and repeat that with Blue Beetle. The optics look even WORST.

The ONLY way you could get away with it is for Tim to get an ID from Legion.

Whose to say he wasn't the first Ferro Lad or Kid Quantum?

[Frontier]

I have wondered if Tim is a character who's time has come and gone. Not saying I want fans to be robbed of a character they like or anything, but he does seem to be really limited to a place that outgrew him years ago, if that makes any sense.

I think that's more a problem of faulty execution than the character himself.

[godisawesome]

I have wondered if Tim is a character who's time has come and gone. Not saying I want fans to be robbed of a character they like or anything, but he does seem to be really limited to a place that outgrew him years ago, if that makes any sense.

I think that's more a problem of faulty execution than the character himself.

I feel like its faulty execution occasionally crisscrossing with *both* he and the franchise having outgrown the status quo some creators want to "return" him to. Dick Grayson both outgrew Robin and the Robin role outgrew him to some extent, but no one's trying to force him back into that dynamic duo.

The Red Robin book (and its preceeding Robin run up to it) gave Tim a new MO and style - one that I'd argue actually resembles something like the PI possibility some people like, but extrapolated and added to him as a grown up vigilante. I think Lobdell screwed up that version in a fairly holistic manner because honestly he's just bad at writing conventional Gotham heroes, and then fanboys who wanted to "fix" Tim afterwards tended to not like the Red Robin era and make the mistake of trying to fit Tim back into a role he no loner fit - and that the writing quality of Tim's time under Dixon is difficult to replicate (as arguably proven by writers who followed after Dixon not being as good before Nicieza and Yost repackaged him again).

I say you stick him back in a cowl, make his MO be "chess-mastering" people internationally before arriving in costume, and call him Rook - for both the chess piece and the raven.