Tim Drake where is his place in DC?

[OBrianTallent]

Tim's last book tanked completely because of the creative team. Fitzmartin's writing was terrible, her characterization of Tim was so completely off base as to be laughable. Add to that the art style used by Rossmo...even if no one knew who he is, the preview pages turned off people (that perhaps weren't already turned off by Fitzmartin's out of character writing and out of left fiend interest in Bernard who quickly became a hated character.) I love Tim and tried to get into the book. It had some good concepts, I thought. I loved him living on the boat in the harbor and the potential supporting cast that presented, but I just couldn't get past the art and terrible writing.
Young Justice didn't sell that badly, but when compared to the page rate Bendis requires, it's sells didn't justify it continuing (and quite frankly Bendis struck out almost completely on his DC attempts with the exception of Naomi and I have to wonder if that wasn't more attributed to David Walker as co-writer and Jamal Campbell as artist never hurts anything.) Likewise, Bendis' poor attempt at renaming Tim with "Drake" was laughable and apologies to whomever designed that costume...but it was just bad.

Given a writer with interest in the character and ability to tell a coherent story (with art that isn't brain damaging) Tim could be a viable character again. Zdarsky is doing a great job with him in Batman and I could see him doing something great with the character if he chose to do a solo Tim story. There's plenty of others who could and would probably love to I am sure.

As for what to do with Tim...he's still got potential as a costumed hero, but he definitely needs a new identity and costume (better designed than...Drake.) His jaunts around the multiverse looking for Bruce would make him an ideal candidate for a 'road trip' with Connor (and throw in Cassie as well...she needs a home too.) Make them the new Challengers of the Unknown.

[Aahz]

Young Justice. Which did not do well. And that's you, but Rossmo isn't really a known name. Generally speaking his name isn't just gonna put off initial orders.

You only needed to take one look at the previews to see how terrible it is, and comic shops owners (who do the initial orders) are likely to take a look.

On top you allready had before that the incredibly bad Young Justice book by Fitzmartin (which had at least much better art) so most fans of Tim were likely aware of her writing, and book had likely even failed with better art.

[Aahz]

Young Justice. Which did not do well.

While Bendis is in theory A-List, he was writing a ton of books for DC at the time.
Most of these Books were not exactly popular with the fans, so I think him being on YJ was also not a big draw at the time.

[Godlike13]

You only needed to take one look at the previews to see how terrible it is, and comic shops owners (who do the initial orders) are likely to take a look.

On top you allready had before that the incredibly bad Young Justice book by Fitzmartin (which had at least much better art) so most fans of Tim were likely aware of her writing, and book had likely even failed with better art.

If anything comic shops over ordered initially because the book made headlines. Tim’s hardly the first character to have a subpar creative team. My point is Tim has no audience. Blaming the creators for the book being DOA just further illustrates that. As you guys are now arguing it’s the creator that needs to bring the audience and failed in doing that.

While Bendis is in theory A-List, he was writing a ton of books for DC at the time.
Most of these Books were not exactly popular with the fans, so I think him being on YJ was also not a big draw at the time.

Still should have been more than enough for Young Justice’s audience to show up if they still had one.

[agentofthebat]

I wish he would go back to Red Robin

[Aahz]

As you guys are now arguing it’s the creator that needs to bring the audience and failed in doing that.

I'm arguing that this creative team was actually a reason for the inbuild audience not to buy the book.

Still should have been more than enough for Young Justice’s audience to show up if they had one.

Sales were not great, but also not completly terrible, I mean the book managed to last for 20 issues.

[Godlike13]

I'm arguing that this creative team was actually a reason for the inbuild audience not to buy the book.

So more people disliked this relatively unknown creative team more then they liked Tim Drake to even try his book. Not sure thats better, but I honestly find it very hard to buy this idea that Fitzmartin and Rossmo are that infamous. How did Harley Quinn ever make it past 9 issues if the art is such a turn off.

Sales were not great, but also not completly terrible, I mean the book managed to last for 20 issues.

Thats wasn't good, and a far cry from the new line they envisions. Teen Titans could do that with a pittance of the support and marketing.

[Aahz]

Not sure thats better, but I honestly find it very hard to buy this idea that Fitzmartin and Rossmo were are that infamous.

Fitzmartin wrote before that allready the Young Justice: Dark Crisis Mini. Most people how like Tim and the rest of YJ have very likely read this book, and I think that is likely enough for people not want anoth

Thats wasn't good, and a far cry from the new line they envisions. Teen Titans could do that with a pittance of the support and marketing.

The Titans have a much bigger presence in outside media, and I think that book being in a new line and not in main DC line also hurt the book.

And just to point that out most incarnations of Titans have also not been terribly successfull in the last year. While the series usually lasted longer, they got uually a complete change of the team roaster half way through the run.
Especally Dicks Generation of Titans has not really had a run I would call successfull in 20 years (the new run by Taylor might change that, but it is imo to early to tell).

[Godlike13]

Fitzmartin wrote before that allready the Young Justice: Dark Crisis Mini. Most people how like Tim and the rest of YJ have very likely read this book, and I think that is likely enough for people not want anoth

Come on. Are you seriously trying to say that 1 low selling mini was enough to put off audiences on Tim Drake's return to Robin.

The Titans have a much bigger presence in outside media, and I think that book being in a new line and not in main DC line also hurt the book.

And just to point that out most incarnations of Titans have also not been terribly successfull in the last year. While the series usually lasted longer, they got uually a complete change of the team roaster half way through the run.
Especally Dicks Generation of Titans has not really had a run I would call successfull in 20 years (the new run by Taylor might change that, but it is imo to early to tell).

Ya, the Titans have an audience. And the YJ book was in the main line. The Wonder Line was still apart of the main line.

Also most of the Teen Titans incarnations in the last years have been made up with Tim and his friends. Damian only got it after they ran into into the gutter with them. And yet still did better then YJ. Despite them trying to set him up as a villain. Dick's generation of Titans has not really had many Titans runs in these last years, but when they did an audience showed up. That was never the issue. Despite most of them being pretty awful in quality. Rebirth Titans being a prime example. It was a terrible book, with Brett Booth on art, that launched beyond expectations and lasted far longer then it should have. They had to shoot Dick in the head to kill that book.

[Aahz]

Also most of the Teen Titans incarnations in the last years have been made up with Tim and his friends.

With their pre flashpoint run actually beeing the only one that was successfull and ran for 100 issues.

Damian only got it after they ran into into the gutter with them.

And when they got it originally, it was also not really in the best shape. The New Teen Titans was kind of crap at the end, the 1996 version didn't do well, and the 1999 started decent but also fell apart at the end.

Dick's generation of Titans has not really had many Titans runs in these last years, but when they did an audience showed up. That was never the issue. Despite most of them being pretty awful in quality. Rebirth Titans being a prime example.

Only that that book pretty much removed most of the Titans of Dicks era after roughly 20 issues, for a new team, and they did the same with Damain's Titans team.
I think this kind of drastic revamp happend with almost all Titan books, not staring Tim's gen post Graduation day.

[thwhtGuardian]

Come on. Are you seriously trying to say that 1 low selling mini was enough to put off audiences on Tim Drake's return to Robin.



Ya, the Titans have an audience. And the YJ book was in the main line. The Wonder Line was still apart of the main line.

Also most of the Teen Titans incarnations in the last years have been made up with Tim and his friends. Damian only got it after they ran into into the gutter with them. And yet still did better then YJ. Despite them trying to set him up as a villain. Dick's generation of Titans has not really had many Titans runs in these last years, but when they did an audience showed up. That was never the issue. Despite most of them being pretty awful in quality. Rebirth Titans being a prime example. It was a terrible book, with Brett Booth on art, that launched beyond expectations and lasted far longer then it should have. They had to shoot Dick in the head to kill that book.

I don't understand why it's hard to believe that people follow creative teams more than characters in this day and age. It was known that the creative team for the latest Tim Drake solo was bad going into it so people didn't pull it...it happens literally all the time, both ways too.

[Godlike13]

I don't understand why it's hard to believe that people follow creative teams more than characters in this day and age. It was known that the creative team for the latest Tim Drake solo was bad going into it so people didn't pull it...it happens literally all the time, both ways too.

Because that’s simply not how the industry works. The sales charts would look vastly different if it was. DC and Marvel are in the business of selling characters, not creators. The creative team for the latest Tim Drake solo was generally unknown. One low selling mini didn’t put them on the map. To pretend they were well know enough to distract an entire audience a character supposedly has is quite frankly silly. On the other hand Tim’s popularity has been trending down for a while now. This was not an isolated incident, but a culmination.

[Badou]

He should be going to college and you build a story around that. No other DC character is really doing that now. So you follow him going to college and through the school and student body he uncovers mysteries, crimes, villains, and so on. So you have the classic dynamic of him trying to balance his school/personal life with being a superhero. You have to narrow down the scope of his character to just focus on a school I think over him trying to be some world hero or just another hero in Gotham. Since that clearly isn't working.

[Alan2099]

Yeah... Tim was recently operating as Bruce's Robin again, but post-Gotham War that's not going to be a think any more. Bart's off somewhere with Max Mercury... which was a plot point in Jay Garrick's mini as it freed up Judy's old bedroom, which apparently he'd been using. Cassie's had her codename stolen by a new Wonder Girl, so she could do with a rebrand. She is due to appear in Tom King's Wonder Woman, in a new costume, so there may actually be plans for her. Conner's been used in Action Comics, but the writer is leaving, and so the Super Family status quo is ending. Tim, Bart, and Conner are all regressing.

Maybe with Babs going out more often as Batgirl, Tim could step up as a replacement Oracle?

Bring them back together as Rejected Justice!

[Rac7d*]

He should be going to college and you build a story around that. No other DC character is really doing that now. So you follow him going to college and through the school and student body he uncovers mysteries, crimes, villains, and so on. So you have the classic dynamic of him trying to balance his school/personal life with being a superhero. You have to narrow down the scope of his character to just focus on a school I think over him trying to be some world hero or just another hero in Gotham. Since that clearly isn't working.

That’s not gonna happen now that Damian is the only batfamily member in school again

Well besides Duke who is in college but DC doesn’t care about him