Tim Drake where is his place in DC?

[OBrianTallent]

Because that’s simply not how the industry works. The sales charts would look vastly different if it was. DC and Marvel are in the business of selling characters, not creators. The creative team for the latest Tim Drake solo was generally unknown. One low selling mini didn’t put them on the map. To pretend they were well know enough to distract an entire audience a character supposedly has is quite frankly silly. On the other hand Tim’s popularity has been trending down for a while now. This was not an isolated incident, but a culmination.

It's really not the culmination you think it is. Fitzmartin wrote the character in back-ups for several issues and people were not thrilled with the switch to making him a bi character and even less so pairing him with Bernard. Rossmo has been around the industry for several years and is fairly well known for very stylized art. Which, while it worked more so for Harley Quinn, it did not work at all for Tim Drake: Robin, combined with the poor reception of the writer and the changes she made--it really did turn people off to the book. With previews and word of mouth from previous work, people are going to not pick up a book that is considered bad by a majority of people. While DC and Marvel may be in the business of selling characters, they can't do that without creative teams that people will accept and people did not accept this team. Comic books cost too much money these days to buy a book that one isn't going to enjoy or agree with what the team is doing to said character. Fitzmartin wrote Tim completely out of character, ignored other fan favorite characters and while the sell was a bisexual Tim, she wrote him as completely gay ignoring his past relationships.
It seems more like this is a case of you specifically not liking the character and making your own judgement as to what happened. Tim Drake is still a fairly popular character, he may not be as popular as he was fifteen or twenty years ago, but then there's been some fairly bad decisions on DC's part to contribute to that...but that doesn't mean if DC invested some real talent into the character he wouldn't be as popular as he once was and maybe even more so.

[NOCTPHOENIX]

That’s not gonna happen now that Damian is the only batfamily member in school again

Well besides Duke who is in college but DC doesn’t care about him

In that case just continue what Red Robin did of giving him a job with with his Neon Knights foundation and balancing that with being a vigilante and the question of which way could be better.

[Godlike13]

It's really not the culmination you think it is. Fitzmartin wrote the character in back-ups for several issues and people were not thrilled with the switch to making him a bi character and even less so pairing him with Bernard. Rossmo has been around the industry for several years and is fairly well known for very stylized art. Which, while it worked more so for Harley Quinn, it did not work at all for Tim Drake: Robin, combined with the poor reception of the writer and the changes she made--it really did turn people off to the book. With previews and word of mouth from previous work, people are going to not pick up a book that is considered bad by a majority of people. While DC and Marvel may be in the business of selling characters, they can't do that without creative teams that people will accept and people did not accept this team. Comic books cost too much money these days to buy a book that one isn't going to enjoy or agree with what the team is doing to said character. Fitzmartin wrote Tim completely out of character, ignored other fan favorite characters and while the sell was a bisexual Tim, she wrote him as completely gay ignoring his past relationships.
It seems more like this is a case of you specifically not liking the character and making your own judgement as to what happened. Tim Drake is still a fairly popular character, he may not be as popular as he was fifteen or twenty years ago, but then there's been some fairly bad decisions on DC's part to contribute to that...but that doesn't mean if DC invested some real talent into the character he wouldn't be as popular as he once was and maybe even more so.

Projects with him were under preforming before Fitzmartin and Rossmo. This has been a visible trend. Yet there always seems to be a different excuse as to why these projects underperformed that doesn't involve Tim Drake. Project after project has failed with him, the last big swing couldn't even make it 10 issues, but its just that i don't like him. Ok, sure. Sub par creative teams and unknown creative teams are seen all the time on characters, but whatever. Show me something, anything, that shows he still has a tangible audience. If he is still a fairly popular character, where are we seeing that. Cause quite frankly all you guys seem to have is that you still like him. Though apparently not enough to buy his book unless they can get someone like Grant Morrison to write it.

[Rac7d*]

In that case just continue what Red Robin did of giving him a job with with his Neon Knights foundation and balancing that with being a vigilante and the question of which way could be better.

Tim is a son of Bruce Wayne he never had to work again unless he wants to, be a 17 year old vigilante forever and just live in a nice apartment with no worries. Jobs are for adults

[OBrianTallent]

Projects with him were under preforming before Fitzmartin and Rossmo. This has been a visible trend. Yet there always seems to be a different excuse as to why these projects underperformed that doesn't involve Tim Drake. Project after project has failed with him, the last big swing couldn't even make it 10 issues, but its just that i don't like him. Ok, sure. Sub par creative teams and unknown creative teams are seen all the time on characters, but whatever. Show me something, anything, that shows he still has a tangible audience. If he is still a fairly popular character, where are we seeing that. Cause quite frankly all you guys seem to have is that you still like him. Though apparently not enough to buy his book unless they can get someone like Grant Morrison to write it.

The fact that he received a book in today's market should be proof that he is still a viable character. There are plenty of well liked characters that can't get a series greenlit. Also, as per the bolded part...are you suggesting that people support a book with a creative team they dont like? With a creative direction they dont agree with? That might have worked 20 years ago when comics cost half what they do today, but people dont have that kind of money. Again, as for the series before that underperformed, different books have to sell at different levels due to the creative teams page rate. Some creators dont get to set their rate and some, like Bendis, do. Bendis was given a very lucrative exclusive contract. That means his books have to sell at a higher number to make his rate worth it to the company. Unfortunately Bendis hasn't drawn the numbers he used to...even his Superman run didn't sell 'normal' Bendis levels...that's more on people not being there to support the writer and not the character. But again, everyone here saying otherwise doesn't seem to know as much as you do.

It's more than obvious you just dont like the character and can't see past your own bias.

[WebLurker]

Does Tim have a place anymore? Seems to me like part of his problem is that he was created to be Batman's main Robin and, with Damien having cemented that as his place, Tim needs to find a new niche and none of them stick. Unlike Dick Grayson and Jason Todd, his post-Robin reinventions ("Red Robin" and "Drake") haven't caught on; he's stuck circling a role that seems to be the only thing he can do but the role has moved on past him. Seems like being the "bisexual Robin" is what the writers have been trying to make as his new place in the franchise, but, while that could generate some decent story material, it's not a niche in and of itself.

Wouldn't say that Tim being "relevant" again is an impossible problem, but not all characters last (when's the last time the pre-Barbara Gordon Batgirl was a big deal) and, given how DC has struggled to find his place in the franchise, it might be possible that he just was never designed to be anything more what he was created to be and hit the ceiling of his potential before his co-stars did.

[Godlike13]

The fact that he received a book in today's market should be proof that he is still a viable character. There are plenty of well liked characters that can't get a series greenlit. Also, as per the bolded part...are you suggesting that people support a book with a creative team they dont like? With a creative direction they dont agree with? That might have worked 20 years ago when comics cost half what they do today, but people dont have that kind of money. Again, as for the series before that underperformed, different books have to sell at different levels due to the creative teams page rate. Some creators dont get to set their rate and some, like Bendis, do. Bendis was given a very lucrative exclusive contract. That means his books have to sell at a higher number to make his rate worth it to the company. Unfortunately Bendis hasn't drawn the numbers he used to...even his Superman run didn't sell 'normal' Bendis levels...that's more on people not being there to support the writer and not the character. But again, everyone here saying otherwise doesn't seem to know as much as you do.

It's more than obvious you just dont like the character and can't see past your own bias.

That he received a book in today's market turned out to be a mistake though. Editorial nostalgia mislead them. They thought they had an idea that would make Tim as Robin more desirable to today's market and more appealing outside of comics. But they were wrong. Very wrong. Which is why they had to end the book quickly, and bring back a book with Damian. Because pretty much right as they launched Tim's new book the new guy in charge of their other media announced he wanted to use Damian. Even Bat books that don't sell well are often given a year. Especially if they have "representation". So its pretty clear they realized they made a wrong call there. People support books with a creative teams they don't like regularly. Readers tend to be there for the characters. Again Ric did better then Tim's last series did. The whole idea is to cultivate audiences for these character so the that they can sell them with interchangeable creative teams. Whats more these books are ordered before anyone even has a chance to read them. If these books launched strong and then deflated at a rate beyond natural deflation that would demonstrate a dissatisfaction with the content, but these books are launching flat. Which demonstrates a general lack of interest to begin with. You guys just keep blindly blaming the creators, and saying im just being bias, but then again show me something that demonstrate audiences are still interested in Tim if im just being bias. Because i just see book after book with him underperforming, and outside interest falling more and more to Damian as Robin. Thats not me being bias. Thats writing on the wall.

[NOCTPHOENIX]

Tim is a son of Bruce Wayne he never had to work again unless he wants to, be a 17 year old vigilante forever and just live in a nice apartment with no worries. Jobs are for adults

With Bruce's fortune gone, now would be a good time too. Not to mention in Red Robin he still had a job and was working.

[Rac7d*]

With Bruce's fortune gone, now would be a good time too. Not to mention in Red Robin he still had a job and was working.

Fortune reduced, he ain’t working a day job I belive
The daily lives of Tim Steph and Cass have not changed

That was back when characters had more balanced personal lives with their superheroing
Batman and Robin is like the first DC book that making an attempt at that and it’s okay considering all the other adjacent titles like Batman which can focus on them mostly crime fighting.

[Aahz]

Does Tim have a place anymore? Seems to me like part of his problem is that he was created to be Batman's main Robin and, with Damien having cemented that as his place, Tim needs to find a new niche and none of them stick.

Honestly I think with how differnt the two are, and the fact Robin usually has solo books and only infrequently appears in Baman stories, you could still both of them arround. But for some reason the writers seem to have the impression that they allways have to ban one of them completlely from Gotham.

[skyvolt2000]

It seems more like this is a case of you specifically not liking the character and making your own judgement as to what happened. Tim Drake is still a fairly popular character, he may not be as popular as he was fifteen or twenty years ago, but then there's been some fairly bad decisions on DC's part to contribute to that...but that doesn't mean if DC invested some real talent into the character he wouldn't be as popular as he once was and maybe even more so.

Folks forget while the floppies did not do as well despite it all.

Trade wise it was doing fine.

Also 90% of the complaints outside of here focused on the ART and very little on the writing.
It was more of get him in the hands of a different artist or creative team. Nobody was screaming get rid of Tim.

Too many times we get this mess of get rid of characters that I don't like and want to use "sales" as the main weapon.
Ignoring EVERYTHING else that is bought up from the creative team to editorial's nonsense.

It won't matter if you put Priest, Bendis, Hudlin, Simone, Johnson, Star Trek actors, college professors like Ewing and Gene Yung, Oscar winners like Ridley, Kami Garcia or even Raina Telgemeier or Max Brallier. SOMEBODY is going to make it their business to have an issue with it. John Stewart's last run says HI.

What if we got an A list team?? Guess what happens? SOMEBODY is going to encourage boycotting the book because they view it being BENEATH that writer. We saw that with New Age Heroes. Priest on Black Adam says hi.

And why still should Tim or Duke or Step or Cass be denied more shots that folks like Moon Knight and Carol and NIGHTWING have gotten?

Only difference between Nightwing and those 4 is when he got crapped on-he was not taken off the field. Folks worked through those tough time. Even when the head of the company wanted him DEAD. In other words every month we saw Nightwing that were not cameos unlike those 4.

[Godlike13]

Oh, please. Duke, Step, and Cass are begging for half the shots Tim gets. No one is screaming get rid of Tim, they are too bored of him to even do that. He's the epitome of apathy, and has nothing going on outside of the floppies. Difference between Nightwing and those 4 is readers show up. Please don't try to morph Tim's situation into whatever crusade you tend go on about. Tim's editorial favored.

[Aahz]

Thing is when Nightwing had a bad era (like in in the end of the new titans, his first ongoing after the death of Block Buster or the Rick Era) you had at some point a Big Name Creator (Dixon, Morrison and now Taylor) come in and get the excitement back up.

With Tim got a lot of shots, but for some reason they have all been pretty poorly executed, of just completely stupid from the start.

I think best for Tim would be to do some back to the basics stuff that goes for the nostalgia for the older popular runs, but they need a writer who can really deliver that, and not writer who makes basically a story about that all the fans of the classic stories are toxic man babies...

[Godlike13]

Dixon literally wrote Dick and Tim at the same time, Morrison wrote Batman and Robin 5 years after Block Buster died, and Taylor is a rather recent develop that took a complete over haul of upper management. All those guys are like a decade in between BTW. Big name creator didn't get put on Nightwing. That wasn't a thing, the opposite was a thing. Lets not rewrite history because things now aren't panning out for Tim despite their various attempts, while Nightwing finally has something going for him on his title after a run that was as bad as anything Tim has seen quality wise.

[Aahz]

Dixon literally wrote Dick and Tim at the same time,

And back than both were popular.

Morrison wrote Batman and Robin 5 years after Block Buster died,

And the 5 years in between were for the most part pretty bad (OK Thomasis run was OK). And the run brought alot of excitement back for the character.

and Taylor is a rather recent develop that took a complete over haul of upper management.

But bringing him in increased the sales significantly.