Tim Drake where is his place in DC?

[Fergus]

Honestly I think with how differnt the two are, and the fact Robin usually has solo books and only infrequently appears in Baman stories, you could still both of them arround. But for some reason the writers seem to have the impression that they allways have to ban one of them completlely from Gotham.

In the last few years, DC has had 3 Robins on the shelves. Dick, Damian and Tim.
Of the 3 Tim performed the worst and saw the least engagement despite getting a major history making revamp and the most intensive PR push on multiple fronts.

He shouldn't be Robin anymore. DC is a business and fir the past few years Robin has just been carrying Tim. That's not how it's supposed to work.

At this rate he's doing more damage than simply coasting. DC is just keeping their robin base split, stopping his fans from getting closure and wasting valuable resources on the character without significant returns.

the number of restarts and chances they've given Tim in the past 15 years, they could have given Duke, Harper and Terry stronger legs with those resources rather than half arsing Tim without actually allowing him to develop past what he was 25years ago.

[Godlike13]

And back than both were popular.

Ok, but the point is Dick wasn't getting something Tim wasn't

And the 5 years in between were for the most part pretty bad (OK Thomasis run was OK). And the run brought alot of excitement back for the character.

As Batman. Did little to nothing for Nightwing. As soon as he was back as Nightwing he was back to an unknown writer and artist that couldn't even finish an issue.

But bringing him in increased the sales significantly.

Which wasn't guaranteed, and prior to it happening it was unheard of to put someone like Taylor on Nightwing.

[Vordan]

I was playing GK with my younger brother who is a total comics casual and I find his opinion of Tim interesting: he despises Tim. Tim to him is an obnoxious dweeb who is completely overshadowed by the other three Bat characters, and his favorite Robin of the available choices is Jason because he likes Jason’s edge. However he was really upset that he couldn’t play as Damian who is his favorite Batfamily character outside of Batman. My point in saying this is that Tim’s decline in popularity is likely tied to Damian being solidified as the Robin for a new generation. Gen Z does not seem to care about Tim and it’s unlikely that a book, even if it was good, could change that.

Who is going to read him? Who is this magical audience who is just waiting to show up for Tim? His old audience is long gone, having grown up and graduated to just reading Batman and the other adult heroes, or leaving comics entirely. The new audience who would have replaced them instead gravitates either to Damian, Jason, or Dick. Tim’s audience these days seems to be comprised entirely of nostalgic fanboys who can’t let go and Twitter gays whom DC has tried to pander to via reworking his entire character to fit the fanfic portrayals of Tim. Not a large enough group to actually justify continuing to push Tim.

Frankly the Batfamily is overdue some trimming but since Tim now serves as the gay male rep in the Batman franchise, he’s never going to disappear entirely, but he’s also never going to be a character who can sustain a 100 issue run ever again. His main purpose is minority representation and any story featuring him needs to account for that. In the Young Adult OGN market he might find an audience for himself, but in the direct market I don’t see a path to success to him. He’s supporting character tier now, give him a new identity and put him on a team, have him stop being a cape and move him into the civilian supporting cast for Batman or Nightwing, those are the most viable options for him nowadays.

[thwhtGuardian]

Because that’s simply not how the industry works. The sales charts would look vastly different if it was. DC and Marvel are in the business of selling characters, not creators. The creative team for the latest Tim Drake solo was generally unknown. One low selling mini didn’t put them on the map. To pretend they were well know enough to distract an entire audience a character supposedly has is quite frankly silly. On the other hand Tim’s popularity has been trending down for a while now. This was not an isolated incident, but a culmination.

It is how the industry works now, this isn't the 90's where the masthead(or character sells) the book anymore. Outside of Batman, Spider-Man and X-Men you see books dramatically see-saw in sales depending on the creative team.

Let's look at a few:

Incredible Hulk #717 (May, 2018) - 20,500. The audience had soured on prior wonderkind writer Greg Pak and had abandoned the book in droves. If we're to take your approach then we're to think this number represents the character's popularity...but wait,later this happens...

Immortal Hulk #1(June, 2018) - 84,153. Sure, it's a new number one so that can account for a good chunk of the bump, but there's also the fact that Al Ewing was red hot then(and continues to be a draw to today) as later issues would settle in the 40K area, ending it's run three years later with 39K...and then

Hulk #1 (November, 2021) Donny Cates only gets a 10K bump with his new #1, bringing in 49K...only to drop to 22K with #2 and stay around the 20K range for the duration of its run we have numbers for.

In 2023 we don't really have any decent numbers...but Incredible Hulk #1(June, 2023) jumped up to number 5 on ICv2 and Phillip Johnson is someone people are taking notice of where the previous hulk wasn't in the top 50. Subsequently it listed at #34, 40 and the last issue was 15.

Want to try Nightwing? DC got stingy with sales estimates so it's a little harder to track accurately but stsrting with Nightwing #1(July, 2016) we get a huge bump from rebirth bringing Knightwing by Tim Seely up to 114K, then 93K, 69K for two months, 56K, 49K, 46K, 39K before settling in the low 30's until his run ended at #34 with 29,426.

No new number one for Sam Humpries and as he wasn't well known( I don't think he's even active now is he?) he actually sold slightly less, with #35 coming up with 29,310 and he'd only fall from there with 28K, 27K, 26K and then 25K for his final issue in September 2018.

Again, no new number one bump but it magically jumps to 35K with Ben Percy who was pretty hot after the Wolverine audio drama that had been just released that spring. But he cratered fast as fans ran from his concept of Ric Grayson.

No new number one for Jurgens and no sales numbers, but it was estimated to be the 135th best selling comic...which if pasted back to 2019 when we had numbers it would have been in the high teens. Which isn't surprising as although Jurgens was a well known industry pro he wasn't exactly a draw.

Then with #78 we get Tom Taylor, which although not a "household" name among comic fans had a pretty good track record and his debut ranked 22nd which in 2019 would have been high 40's in sales...and he's stayed there pretty consistently.

And I could go on and on with other titles but the result would be the same. If it has nothing to do with readers following writers and artists known to put out good books, why do the sales fluctuate so much when they change? If the sales were the results of people just reading books for the love of a particular character regardless of the creative team wouldn't the sales data be fairly consistent?

[Godlike13]

Well I can go on and on about variants, sales deflation, events, etc, and how books are ordered in general. But instead I’ll simple point out you wouldn’t be bringing up Hulk numbers if this was actually a creator driven industry, you would be bringing up the leading creators and their various works. DC and Marvel books wouldn’t be what dominates the top 100. You can’t just ignore all the Batman, Spider-Man, and X-Men books as if they don’t make up a huge portion of to top books being published and don’t dominate the charts months after months, year after year. Focusing on instances as if that’s the industry standard. Acting like the Hulk isn’t one of the most popular characters in the world. Creators can influence sales, absolutely, never said they didn’t, but you do know those books you want to exclude. They way those work is how all DC and Marvel books are intended to work. Its how it works even for Nightwing. As a product Tim Drake stops being viable if they need to depend on hiring big name creators to sell him.

[thwhtGuardian]

Well I can go on and on about variants, sales deflation, events, etc, and how books are ordered in general. But instead I’ll simple point out you wouldn’t be bringing up Hulk numbers if this was actually a creator driven industry, you would be bringing up said creators and their various works. DC and Marvel books wouldn’t be what dominates the top 100. You can’t just ignore all the Batman, Spider-Man, and X-Men books as if they don’t dominate the charts months after months, year after year, and focus on instances as if that’s the industry standard. Acting like the Hulk isn’t one of the most popular characters in the world. Creators can influence sales, absolutely, never said they didn’t, but you do know those books you want to exclude. They way those work is how all DC and Marvel books are intended to work. Its how it works even for Nightwing. As a product Tim Drake stops being viable if they need to depend on hiring big name creators to sell him.

...I mentioned Batman, Spider-Man and X-Men already, but they are the exception not the rule that books sell based on who creates them. You get that they are a minority in terms of their sales remaining consistent despite who's writing them or fan reactions right? There are literally hundreds of books put out every month and Batman, Spider-Man, X-Men and usually Superman make up a tiny portion of the overall sales so you can't pretend that those represent the whole of the market. That's not how reality works.

I brought up Hulk and Nightwing because they vary drastically depending on the team. But hey if you want to stick to your guns then you must also think that Dick Grayson isn't viable because his sales are dependent on the creative team.

[Frontier]

I was playing GK with my younger brother who is a total comics casual and I find his opinion of Tim interesting: he despises Tim. Tim to him is an obnoxious dweeb who is completely overshadowed by the other three Bat characters, and his favorite Robin of the available choices is Jason because he likes Jason’s edge. However he was really upset that he couldn’t play as Damian who is his favorite Batfamily character outside of Batman. My point in saying this is that Tim’s decline in popularity is likely tied to Damian being solidified as the Robin for a new generation. Gen Z does not seem to care about Tim and it’s unlikely that a book, even if it was good, could change that.

Who is going to read him? Who is this magical audience who is just waiting to show up for Tim? His old audience is long gone, having grown up and graduated to just reading Batman and the other adult heroes, or leaving comics entirely. The new audience who would have replaced them instead gravitates either to Damian, Jason, or Dick. Tim’s audience these days seems to be comprised entirely of nostalgic fanboys who can’t let go and Twitter gays whom DC has tried to pander to via reworking his entire character to fit the fanfic portrayals of Tim. Not a large enough group to actually justify continuing to push Tim.

Frankly the Batfamily is overdue some trimming but since Tim now serves as the gay male rep in the Batman franchise, he’s never going to disappear entirely, but he’s also never going to be a character who can sustain a 100 issue run ever again. His main purpose is minority representation and any story featuring him needs to account for that. In the Young Adult OGN market he might find an audience for himself, but in the direct market I don’t see a path to success to him. He’s supporting character tier now, give him a new identity and put him on a team, have him stop being a cape and move him into the civilian supporting cast for Batman or Nightwing, those are the most viable options for him nowadays.

Honestly I feel like part of it comes down to personal taste because some people like a dorky, nice, kid being Robin and other people like a brutal, arrogant, and hardcore kid being Robin and not always both.

[red winter]

I think he be an operative for International Operations or S.H.A.D.E , just like Grayson it could be better though. Taking Drake into the intelligence rabbit hole could be the best thing for the character

[Godlike13]

...I mentioned Batman, Spider-Man and X-Men already, but they are the exception not the rule that books sell based on who creates them. You get that they are a minority in terms of their sales remaining consistent despite who's writing them or fan reactions right? There are literally hundreds of books put out every month and Batman, Spider-Man, X-Men and usually Superman make up a tiny portion of the overall sales so you can't pretend that those represent the whole of the market. That's not how reality works.

I brought up Hulk and Nightwing because they vary drastically depending on the team. But hey if you want to stick to your guns then you must also think that Dick Grayson isn't viable because his sales are dependent on the creative team.

No, they are the rule. The Hulk book make’s up a tiny portion of the market, Batman, Spider-Man, and X-Men make up entire lines of books. They are the industry standard in which they strive to replicate with their other books. DC and Marvel carry the industry, and they absolutely represent how DC and Marvel operate the majority of their books. Do even understand what would happen to creator rates if book sales were truly dependent on who creates them as the rule.

Book sales vary for a variety of reasons, events, order incentives, and yes creators, and these things tend to coincide. Dick Grayson wouldn’t be viable if his sales were dependent on the creative team. This is the first time he’s had a biggish name creator, but for most part he had to make do with new guys they want to prep for Batman and whoever they can find.

[thwhtGuardian]

No, they are the rule. The Hulk book make’s up a tiny portion of the market, Batman, Spider-Man, and X-Men make up entire lines of books. They are the industry standard in which they strive to replicate with their other books. DC and Marvel carry the industry, and they absolutely represent how DC and Marvel operate the majority of their books. Do even understand what would happen to creator rates if book sales were truly dependent on who creates them as the rule.

Book sales vary for a variety of reasons, events, order incentives, and yes creators, and these things tend to coincide. Dick Grayson wouldn’t be viable if his sales were dependent on the creative team. This is the first time he’s had a biggish name creator, but for most part he had to make do with new guys they want to prep for Batman and whoever they can find.

They are a small portion of titles, they are literally three to four issues out of literally 200 or so books put out by the major publishers every month. And the majority of those books sell predominately because of the creative team attached to it...which is why literally every other book other than Batman, and Amazing Spider-Man, what ever X-book happens to be the "main" title see-saws in sales when ever a team changes.

If your premise was correct then every title would largely be consistent with only minor deviations related to events, variant covers and relaunches...and yet that isn't the case.

[godisawesome]

Honestly I feel like part of it comes down to personal taste because some people like a dorky, nice, kid being Robin and other people like a brutal, arrogant, and hardcore kid being Robin and not always both.

I would argue that there’s also a matter of more dorky characters depending more on nuance and organic writing to really sell their strengths to the audience, while a more over-the-top character concept can do both a more organic and nuanced story *and* a over-the-top, exaggerated type of escapism. Don’t get me wrong, the more “restrained” character *can* go on crazy adventures and stuff, but he needs that nuance in his characterization to avoid being a boring character on crazy adventures.

Damian and Jason are both characters who can go “completely crazy” in their characterization, capabilities, and in the conflicts they go through, but also be a bit more subtle and restrained; Tim, in contrast, actually tends to suffer significantly the more exaggerated his adventures and capabilities go - not because he can’t handle that type of story-telling, but because the writers who do crazy stories sometimes suck at nuanced character writing.

Like, weirdly, the mad-cap writing of Fabian Nicieza (Mr. “I’m the one who gave Deadpool his personality so he wasn’t just Liefeld cribbing Deathstroke”) in Red Robin was probably the last time Tim got a solid character-based writing style… and that’s over a decade ago.

[phonogram12]

Yeah, crazy, over-the-top is not a feature I look for in a Robin. In fact, it's a deterrent for me.

[godisawesome]

Yeah, crazy, over-the-top is not a feature I look for in a Robin. In fact, it's a deterrent for me.

I’m somewhat similar; Damian didn’t become endearing to me until he got paired up with Steph in her Batgirl series and his “inherent ridiculousness” was contrasted with his actual age and more human writing, and Lobdell’s Jason was actually interesting to me whenever he was written as weirdly more mellow and human character than the Lobdell adventures usually put him in.

…But that’s also why I think Tynion failed at writing Tim as well; I think he was more a fan of the Geoff Johns-era Titans version of the character than the Dixon version, and that’s the “Imma clone my dead friends!” version that don’t really work.

Fitzmartin also seemed to struggle a bit whenever venturing beyond her Tom/Bernard story, and the art worked against her on that point.

[the illustrious mr. kenway]

Tim and friends should go through their Nightwing phase- leave their homes, find new ids/niches etc. Tim being Robin again doesn't appeal to me.

I'm partial to him being a plainclothes private detective in his 20s like Jack from "scene of the crime".



A non-bird alias like Looking Glass from Watchmen would be cool.

[Will Evans]

Am I the only one that loved his evolution into Red Robin?
Why isn’t that an option in the poll?