Tim Drake where is his place in DC?

[thwhtGuardian]

Tim and friends should go through their Nightwing phase- leave their homes, find new ids/niches etc. Tim being Robin again doesn't appeal to me.

I'm partial to him being a plainclothes private detective in his 20s like Jack from "scene of the crime".



A non-bird alias like Looking Glass from Watchmen would be cool.

Man, I haven't thought about Scene of the Crime in years, that was a great book!

Am I the only one that lived his evolution into Red Robin?
Why isn’t that an option in the poll?

I thought Red Robin was a pretty solid book too, though I wasn't fond of the name itself. Costume was cool and I liked the international angle.

[GreyFox]

Am I the only one that lived his evolution into Red Robin?
Why isn’t that an option in the poll?

The first option in the poll is 'Return to Red Robin'.

As for me, while I liked the Red Robin book, I think times have changed. Tim was fresh off his Robin series then. DC has since been pushing Damian and Jason for many years, and is also publishing less titles overall. They have no reason now to favor Tim over other characters.

[Rac7d*]

I think he be an operative for International Operations or S.H.A.D.E , just like Grayson it could be better though. Taking Drake into the intelligence rabbit hole could be the best thing for the character

It could be but just like for DIcks DC has to invest in that part of the world. You can’t be a spy if there are no organizations, or ones that can compete with whatever Amanda Waller is running at the moment.

[OBrianTallent]

Tim and friends should go through their Nightwing phase- leave their homes, find new ids/niches etc. Tim being Robin again doesn't appeal to me.

I'm partial to him being a plainclothes private detective in his 20s like Jack from "scene of the crime".



A non-bird alias like Looking Glass from Watchmen would be cool.

I really enjoyed the Red Robin series, but the name pulls people into the food chain more than into the comic world. It is time for Tim to move past Robin. He (as well as Kon and Cassie) need their graduation moment.

I would be very cool with Tim picking up a non-bird/bat related identity. Chuck Dixon wanted to move Tim into the Blue Beetle name once upon a time and in a similar fashion, I think Tim would be great to pick up the Question mantle.

[godisawesome]

Red Robin, Pre-Flashpoint, had the two most important ingredients for moving Tim into a new place in the DCU - a different enough status quo, and a SOLID couple of writers. I honestly think that if you could get Chris Yost or Fabian Nicieza on Tim again, you could probably get him at least stabilized for a while, and possibly get him going the right direction. Honestly, I don’t think the Red Robin international adventure formula is either “too similar” or “too epic” for the character; it’s issue is that you need someone who knows how to write Tim’s inner voice and social life.

I think the issue is that the ID and the idea of him growing into Red Robin got somewhat awkwardly but inevitably tarnished and then painted as a mistake, only for his old MO as Robin to also be awkwardly redeployed in a superfluous way and then also torpedoed accidentally.. Lobdell, Pfeifer, and even Tynion accidentally made the Red Robin ID just a weird detour that no one really wanted, then Tynion and Bendis tried de facto making him Robin again, and then Bendis screwed up his own idea for an evolution. And then Fitzmartin came in, and largely wrote him as a fan-fiction character in a rom-com… while not really be that good at the rom-com part when his new orientation and the romance was supposed to be the main selling point.

I say, give him back the cowl, give him back the MO from Red Robin, and just use some new name like Rook, and hire someone who’s more gifted at character work to write him, especially of his bisexuality is now a major selling point.

[Aahz]

Honestly, I don’t think the Red Robin international adventure formula is either “too similar” or “too epic” for the character; it’s issue is that you need someone who knows how to write Tim’s inner voice and social life.

I think if even get's a long lasting ongoing, you would have likely to go both some international adventures and some more basic stuff in Gotham.

What I'm really not sure is what to do with Bernard. I think most of his old fans would probably like the whole Fitzmartin run wiped from continuity, but I don't think DC can really do that ...

[Psy-lock]

I don’t get why some people think that changing the mantle would improve things for Tim. Being Robin is what keeps him from completely fading into the background at this point. You can't just pull a Nightwing with him. When that happened Dick was a popular character in a best-selling book.

[CPSparkles]

Folks forget while the floppies did not do as well despite it all.

Trade wise it was doing fine.

Also 90% of the complaints outside of here focused on the ART and very little on the writing.
It was more of get him in the hands of a different artist or creative team. Nobody was screaming get rid of Tim.

Too many times we get this mess of get rid of characters that I don't like and want to use "sales" as the main weapon.
Ignoring EVERYTHING else that is bought up from the creative team to editorial's nonsense.

It won't matter if you put Priest, Bendis, Hudlin, Simone, Johnson, Star Trek actors, college professors like Ewing and Gene Yung, Oscar winners like Ridley, Kami Garcia or even Raina Telgemeier or Max Brallier. SOMEBODY is going to make it their business to have an issue with it. John Stewart's last run says HI.

What if we got an A list team?? Guess what happens? SOMEBODY is going to encourage boycotting the book because they view it being BENEATH that writer. We saw that with New Age Heroes. Priest on Black Adam says hi.

And why still should Tim or Duke or Step or Cass be denied more shots that folks like Moon Knight and Carol and NIGHTWING have gotten?

Only difference between Nightwing and those 4 is when he got crapped on-he was not taken off the field. Folks worked through those tough time. Even when the head of the company wanted him DEAD. In other words every month we saw Nightwing that were not cameos unlike those 4.

Errr... you are incorrect on some claims.

TDR isn't doing fine in trade.

Tim has had more shots than Nightwing, Duke and Cass. Dc keeps trying even though every attempt has resulted in his continued decline and his sales figures got progressively worse.

Tim Drake has never been taken off the field. He has always had a spot as a lead/ main support/co-lead in a well known on-going title since the 90's.

checking reviews and other forums, while there are a lot of complaints about the art style the most recurring complaint was characterisation and the subpr writing/plotting.

Where exactly are you getting your information from?

It's understandable to defend your favourites but this is ridiculous.

The character Tim Drake has a A LOT OF ISSUES but 'people attempting to get rid of him' is not one of them. That has never been true about the character and it's true now. Tim one of the handful of characters that continuously fail upwards. DC and fans find excuses to fit him into the narrative despite the character not having a place or purpose.

Tim has had an A list creative team coupled with a lengthy promotional campaign to launch the series and that still under performed.

DC has never crapped on Tim. Their efforts and best attempts at boosting him have being unsuccessful so far. That's not the same as being crapped on.

DC has never tried to sabotage the character. They consistently hype him up and throw resources at him.

They hire writers who are known fans of his to write for him. The only exception that I can think of was when Lobdell was put on Teen Titans. [not saying Lobdell isn't a fan just not an open fanboy like the others]

Nothing in your entire post is applicable to Tim Drake.

No one has ever called to boycott Tim.

[NOCTPHOENIX]

Errr... you are incorrect on some claims.

TDR isn't doing fine in trade.

Tim has had more shots than Nightwing, Duke and Cass. Dc keeps trying even though every attempt has resulted in his continued decline and his sales figures got progressively worse.

Tim Drake has never been taken off the field. He has always had a spot as a lead/ main support/co-lead in a well known on-going title since the 90's.

checking reviews and other forums, while there are a lot of complaints about the art style the most recurring complaint was characterisation and the subpr writing/plotting.

Where exactly are you getting your information from?

It's understandable to defend your favourites but this is ridiculous.

The character Tim Drake has a A LOT OF ISSUES but 'people attempting to get rid of him' is not one of them. That has never been true about the character and it's true now. Tim one of the handful of characters that continuously fail upwards. DC and fans find excuses to fit him into the narrative despite the character not having a place or purpose.

Tim has had an A list creative team coupled with a lengthy promotional campaign to launch the series and that still under performed.

DC has never crapped on Tim. Their efforts and best attempts at boosting him have being unsuccessful so far. That's not the same as being crapped on.

DC has never tried to sabotage the character. They consistently hype him up and throw resources at him.

They hire writers who are known fans of his to write for him. The only exception that I can think of was when Lobdell was put on Teen Titans. [not saying Lobdell isn't a fan just not an open fanboy like the others]

Nothing in your entire post is applicable to Tim Drake.

No one has ever called to boycott Tim.

These are the numbers for TDR released September 26th:

#396,548 in Books (See Top 100 in Books)
#645 in Mystery Graphic Novels
#1,076 in DC Comics & Graphic Novels
#3,695 in Superhero Comics & Graphic Novels

and who was this A List creative team?

I think if even get's a long lasting ongoing, you would have likely to go both some international adventures and some more basic stuff in Gotham.

What I'm really not sure is what to do with Bernard. I think most of his old fans would probably like the whole Fitzmartin run wiped from continuity, but I don't think DC can really do that ...

Red Robin with Fabnic did do both International adventures and basic Gotham stuff

with Bernard....well there was a rumour on 4chan DC will break him and Tim up (hope so)......but yeah he's proven unpopular with Tim fans. The only people who "like" him is the twitter/tumblr/a03/tiktok shipping crew

[CPSparkles]

Retire him.
Have him go back to school.
He could go back to RR but that doesn't fix the problem. Tim's struggling because he lacks a reason/purpose and paying customers aren't interested in him. The code name is irrelevant at this point.
Spy /detective seems a popular choice but that's Batman . He is the World's greatest Detective.

It's also what they are currently doing. Tim's last solo was focusing on him as a Detective and it highlighted what everybody always ignores. We are told about Tim's great detective skills but how many stories are there of said skills in action? How many good Tim Drake detective stories are there in more than 30 years worth of stories?

A mystery is only as good as the writer which is why the only bars with a decent collection of detective series are the 2 that have been around the longest.

leading a new super team isn't a viable option with current Tim. If Conner is still in high school then so at the most just graduated making him 16 or so.

A road trip with Connor was my pick because I really miss the Super Sons. It won't fix the Tim problem and it doesn't answer the question posed by the thread but I'd buy it.

He doesn't have to leave the Bat family but he definitely needs to distance himself from Robin.

When the guy who created the Robin mantle has asked you twice now on panel that the role is no longer yours. That the mantle now belongs to another character then you've lost any narrative justification to still use the mantle. Why even establish that situation or why write that exchange?

Tim is now disrespectful since he ignored the requests.

I don't know what to do with Tim. I don't even know what his current motivation for being a hero is. The initial very specific reasons that motivated the character to don the cape is no longer valid so why is he still here?

Jeez, It's gonna take a lot of work.

[CPSparkles]

These are the numbers for TDR released September 26th:

#396,548 in Books (See Top 100 in Books)
#645 in Mystery Graphic Novels
#1,076 in DC Comics & Graphic Novels
#3,695 in Superhero Comics & Graphic Novels

and who was this A List creative team?



Red Robin with Fabnic did do both International adventures and basic Gotham stuff

with Bernard....well there was a rumour on 4chan DC will break him and Tim up (hope so)......but yeah he's proven unpopular with Tim fans. The only people who "like" him is the twitter/tumblr/a03/tiktok shipping crew

Those are technically numbers but they are not sales figures. They support my argument but it's important to clarify that Amazon charts change every hour therefore tracking the titles placement over a period is vital to get anything that might be used as an indication of performance.

Example, TT Robin by Garcia was no 1 of the Teens/ YA Graphic Novels charts for 5 months and in the top 5 DC comics charts for a few months before release. Even without the sales units that's an indication that the series did very well.

[the illustrious mr. kenway]

Man, I haven't thought about Scene of the Crime in years, that was a great book!

I wished they got to do more arcs for Scene of the crime.

I really enjoyed the Red Robin series, but the name pulls people into the food chain more than into the comic world. It is time for Tim to move past Robin. He (as well as Kon and Cassie) need their graduation moment.

I would be very cool with Tim picking up a non-bird/bat related identity. Chuck Dixon wanted to move Tim into the Blue Beetle name once upon a time and in a similar fashion, I think Tim would be great to pick up the Question mantle.

I agree about Tim being the new Question but I'm fine if it doesn't happen. I don't think Tim going from one legacy mantle to another is the best angle.

[Frontier]

I don’t get why some people think that changing the mantle would improve things for Tim. Being Robin is what keeps him from completely fading into the background at this point. You can't just pull a Nightwing with him. When that happened Dick was a popular character in a best-selling book.

He did carry a solo as Red Robin but that was a very different time.

[phonogram12]

I’m somewhat similar; Damian didn’t become endearing to me until he got paired up with Steph in her Batgirl series and his “inherent ridiculousness” was contrasted with his actual age and more human writing, and Lobdell’s Jason was actually interesting to me whenever he was written as weirdly more mellow and human character than the Lobdell adventures usually put him in.

The last time (and only) time I've ever been invested in Damien was during Tomasi's B&R run. And that was mostly because he was getting knocked down off his pedestal more often than not. But I agree with Lobdell and Jason. He actually felt like a real-life person during the first RH&TO series, which I still think is one of the best things to come out of the nu52.

…But that’s also why I think Tynion failed at writing Tim as well; I think he was more a fan of the Geoff Johns-era Titans version of the character than the Dixon version, and that’s the “Imma clone my dead friends!” version that don’t really work.

Fitzmartin also seemed to struggle a bit whenever venturing beyond her Tom/Bernard story, and the art worked against her on that point.

Personally, my favorite iteration of Tim was Peter David's in YJ.

[Aahz]

I don’t get why some people think that changing the mantle would improve things for Tim. Being Robin is what keeps him from completely fading into the background at this point. You can't just pull a Nightwing with him. When that happened Dick was a popular character in a best-selling book.

Unfortunately they didn't came up with a better mantle when they made him Red Robin, that would have been the ideal time to have him take up the new Identity.
I mean Red Robin is still just a variation of Robin.