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  1. #121
    see beauty in all things. charliehustle415's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    Whatever's next for the X-Men and even if there is a surviving Mutant nation and government, I hope the X-Men have nothing to do with it at least in as far as having to deal with another Quiet Council.
    I think the GameofThronesification of everything nowadays is being slowly phased out because it is so hack, X-Men tried it now it's time to toss it.

  2. #122
    Astonishing Member ARkadelphia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sutekh View Post
    Krakoa is psychically feeding off of every mutant who lives on the island, and the brain trust over at Quiet Council headquarters put *Selene and Emplate* in charge of making sure the whole thing doesn't go hilariously catastrophically wrong...

    So there's definitely a plethora of possibilities for why Krakoans have been acting out of character.
    This era ends with Orchis settling on Krakoa, and Krakoa swallowing each and every member of Orchis in one giant gulp.
    “The Avengers have been the one point of stability in my entire life. And if The Avengers call… then The Scarlet Witch will always answer.”

  3. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by charliehustle415 View Post
    I think the GameofThronesification of everything nowadays is being slowly phased out because it is so hack, X-Men tried it now it's time to toss it.
    There's always been an audience for the shadowy council of deciders politicking amongst each other. It was a large part of what drove the last Battlestar Galactica reboot, watching the upper-ups jockey for position and connive and wheedle and deal with the ugly side of realpolitick. I think there could even be a compelling story of the leaders of mutantkind doing such things and having to win hearts and minds and compromise with other factions, pre-existing governments, etc. There are even valid cases to be made for snakes like Sebastian Shaw or dangerous demagogues like Exodus to claw their way onto such a leadership body (if not factionless loners who don't really 'play well on teams' like Selene or Sinister, who don't really represent any particular groups of mutants, IMO).

    But that sort of story would require a writer that is both interested in and experienced at that sort of political thriller, and is very much NOT what we got.

    And now, even if there *could* be a cool story told about this, running in the background, perhaps serving as a framing device for the other books and minis (the council has approved a mission to do X, but the compromise team chosen reflect different factions with competing and sometimes contrasting agendas!), the well has been poisoned and nobody wants it.

  4. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by ARkadelphia View Post
    This era ends with Orchis settling on Krakoa, and Krakoa swallowing each and every member of Orchis in one giant gulp.
    Let's think this out a bit.

    1. Orchis is convinced/tricked into wanting to have the techno-organic material Krakoa developed after touching Warlock. Because it's essentialy the highly advanced techno-organic material of the Technarchy but in a seemingly "stable" and "controllable" form. Hence Orchis gets big dreams of Sentinels superior to Nimrod and turning themself into bio-cyborgs who can crush all mutants.

    2. Orchis develops the plan to "trick" Krakoa into believing them to be the "real" mutants and to turn it into their new base of operation.

    3. Orchis scientist develop a method which infuses an artifical X-gene into their bodies, which seemingly does the trick and they all re-locate their entire personal to Krakoa, while destroying their facility on Mercury and around the Sun to fake their "death" to the rest of the human population.

    4. Krakoa suddently pulls everyone into the ground similar to The Pit and rapidly consumes them.

    5. Krakoa uses the knowledge it gained from absorbing the Orchis personal and access to techno-organic material to create algea with X-genes in giant tanks which it turns into a permanent self sustaining food source.

    6. Krakoa also turns itself into a glass sphere space ship similar to the one from the movie The Fountain (featuring Hugh Jackman in a dramatic somber role) and Life 9 of Hox/POX and decides to create it's own mutant planet independent of the "humans and their petty conflicts", merely saying "goodbye" in human language to Doug.

  5. #125
    see beauty in all things. charliehustle415's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sutekh View Post
    There's always been an audience for the shadowy council of deciders politicking amongst each other. It was a large part of what drove the last Battlestar Galactica reboot, watching the upper-ups jockey for position and connive and wheedle and deal with the ugly side of realpolitick. I think there could even be a compelling story of the leaders of mutantkind doing such things and having to win hearts and minds and compromise with other factions, pre-existing governments, etc. There are even valid cases to be made for snakes like Sebastian Shaw or dangerous demagogues like Exodus to claw their way onto such a leadership body (if not factionless loners who don't really 'play well on teams' like Selene or Sinister, who don't really represent any particular groups of mutants, IMO).

    But that sort of story would require a writer that is both interested in and experienced at that sort of political thriller, and is very much NOT what we got.

    And now, even if there *could* be a cool story told about this, running in the background, perhaps serving as a framing device for the other books and minis (the council has approved a mission to do X, but the compromise team chosen reflect different factions with competing and sometimes contrasting agendas!), the well has been poisoned and nobody wants it.
    100%

    no writer has come close

  6. #126
    Astonishing Member ARkadelphia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grunty View Post
    Let's think this out a bit.

    1. Orchis is convinced/tricked into wanting to have the techno-organic material Krakoa developed after touching Warlock. Because it's essentialy the highly advanced techno-organic material of the Technarchy but in a seemingly "stable" and "controllable" form. Hence Orchis gets big dreams of Sentinels superior to Nimrod and turning themself into bio-cyborgs who can crush all mutants.

    2. Orchis develops the plan to "trick" Krakoa into believing them to be the "real" mutants and to turn it into their new base of operation.

    3. Orchis scientist develop a method which infuses an artifical X-gene into their bodies, which seemingly does the trick and they all re-locate their entire personal to Krakoa, while destroying their facility on Mercury and around the Sun to fake their "death" to the rest of the human population.

    4. Krakoa suddently pulls everyone into the ground similar to The Pit and rapidly consumes them.

    5. Krakoa uses the knowledge it gained from absorbing the Orchis personal and access to techno-organic material to create algea with X-genes in giant tanks which it turns into a permanent self sustaining food source.

    6. Krakoa also turns itself into a glass sphere space ship similar to the one from the movie The Fountain (featuring Hugh Jackman in a dramatic somber role) and Life 9 of Hox/POX and decides to create it's own mutant planet independent of the "humans and their petty conflicts", merely saying "goodbye" in human language to Doug.
    It practically writes itself
    “The Avengers have been the one point of stability in my entire life. And if The Avengers call… then The Scarlet Witch will always answer.”

  7. #127
    Beast-stan of CBR Mungho's Avatar
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    I've thought since I started reading this Krakoan era that the island was luring as many mutants to settle on it as possible so it could eat them all at once and then evolve into some sort of super being that doesn't need to eat mutants anymore.
    Not removing this signature until Beast is written as a good guy again.

  8. #128
    Fantastic Member Icefanatic's Avatar
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    Wrong post wrong place.....
    Last edited by Icefanatic; 10-30-2023 at 01:29 PM.

  9. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sutekh View Post
    And now, even if there *could* be a cool story told about this, running in the background, perhaps serving as a framing device for the other books and minis (the council has approved a mission to do X, but the compromise team chosen reflect different factions with competing and sometimes contrasting agendas!), the well has been poisoned and nobody wants it.
    They even set it up this way - Cyclops/Jean leave their positions related to the QC, declare that the X-men team will do their own thing separate from the nation's direct interest. This set up the interesting possibilities of QC trying to manipulate the X-men to do their bidding, and the X-men fighting a slide into moral compromise. Forge being on the team but having aligned interests with QC was also being floated.

    And then .... nothing. X-men and QC books were largely unconnected.

    Instead what we got was random space adventures, wasted time setting up 'The Misadventures of Cable and Bishop', and a pointless manufactured conflict between Cyclops and Jean.

    Nothing that happened in either X-men or in the QC books really say anything about their dynamic, the Krakoa nation, and only at the very basic level feeds into the Fall of X storyline ('Orchis becoming powerful'). If it turns out that the Brood have become Dominion, then I will eat crow, but I can't imagine that such a random, serious pivot into discussing genocide, will have anything to do with the remaining storylines.
    Last edited by lefthanded; 10-31-2023 at 07:59 AM.

  10. #130
    Astonishing Member Ra-El's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sutekh View Post
    There's always been an audience for the shadowy council of deciders politicking amongst each other. It was a large part of what drove the last Battlestar Galactica reboot, watching the upper-ups jockey for position and connive and wheedle and deal with the ugly side of realpolitick. I think there could even be a compelling story of the leaders of mutantkind doing such things and having to win hearts and minds and compromise with other factions, pre-existing governments, etc. There are even valid cases to be made for snakes like Sebastian Shaw or dangerous demagogues like Exodus to claw their way onto such a leadership body (if not factionless loners who don't really 'play well on teams' like Selene or Sinister, who don't really represent any particular groups of mutants, IMO).

    But that sort of story would require a writer that is both interested in and experienced at that sort of political thriller, and is very much NOT what we got.

    And now, even if there *could* be a cool story told about this, running in the background, perhaps serving as a framing device for the other books and minis (the council has approved a mission to do X, but the compromise team chosen reflect different factions with competing and sometimes contrasting agendas!), the well has been poisoned and nobody wants it.
    The big difference is that in BSG we had Admiral Adama and President Roslyn, two competent, even if flawed, leaders, while in the Krakoa era the X-Men had a bunch of incompetent people guiding the ship.

    It's easy to take the backstabbing and politicking if we had some good competent people to follow while it happens.

  11. #131
    Ultimate Member Fokken's Avatar
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    delete post
    Last edited by Fokken; 11-02-2023 at 04:52 AM.

  12. #132
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    Looking at the events of Immortal X-men during the current "Fall of X" status quo, it's notable how once again the vast majority of Krakoa's mutant population is essentialy presented as nothing but a giant "blob" of random faces and super powers, which arguably has no discernable motivation, direction, dynamic or even identity beyond the mentioned.

    The story essentialy makes it look like 250.000 individuals wouldn't even be able to tie their own shoes if not for Exodus', Hope's and Destiny's direction and by extension Mother Righteous' manipulation .

    And one can't really blame the current writer of Immortal for going with this characterization or lack thereof, when there isn't really much to work with anyway. Infact it seems like there was never meant to be any, since that would have just made what was apparently the original head writers vision difficult to realize.

    However rather than just dismiss this as one of the narrative shortcommings of the current status quo, there is perhaps an opportunity here to pinpoint one of the fundamental in universe problems of Krakoa as a nation and why it was destined to fail.

    Where are the "tribes" of Krakoa?

    "tribe: (history, anthropology) An ethnic group larger than a band or clan (and which may contain clans) but smaller than a nation (and which in turn may be contained within a nation). The tribe is often the basis of ethnic identity. "

    Roughly speaking, when looking at history all modern nations have their roots in not one but a collection tribes or something akin to a tribal identity. Infact it can be argued that even modern nation states are full of identities which could be considered to be tribalistic in nature.

    For example it's unlikely to ever find a US american citizen who would only ever consider themself soley as US American. There is the state, the part of the state, the city/town/village, the communities, the heritage and accestry, not to forget very often and to a serious degree the sports team.

    So what "tribes" do the people of Krakoa have besides being "mutant"?

    Ay, there's the rub. Hickman's original writing had the mutants rejecting "humanity" and their related identities, while claiming to have something much better, which never actualy manifested, likely by design because nobody in the industry would have the time or be willing to spend the energy on creating something like that from scratch.

    No culture, no identity beyond natural super powers, no tribes. They have an economy, a military, a nebulous cabal of self appointed overlords claiming to be a government, but no foundation on which any of that actualy stands.

    Essentialy a tree floating in the air with it's roots cut off and none growing back. Hence 250.000 people with no identity that a writer would have to consider when presenting them all as utterly passive and easily manipulated by a second rate Sinister Clone.

    And as mentioned before, that is perhaps one of the key points where future writers could start before considering building another full blown mutant "nation" from nothing.

    Introduce and present seperated civilian communities of mutants with their own little set of customs, ideals, goals and conflicts, but without wiping them out shortly thereafter for cheap shocks. Let them grow and stay and when there are enough some of them could gather to form a nation that can actualy stay around for years to come.
    Last edited by Grunty; 11-28-2023 at 09:37 PM.

  13. #133
    Extraordinary Member CGAR's Avatar
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    IDK what happened but a lot of my interest is now gone.

    Just kind of knowing a lot of writers used this to decompress stories or tell stories that really didnt have much focus on the big ideas Hickman had set up kind of make me glad that we are getting kind of a restart.

    Or maybe just reading all the missed opportunities makes me resent the current editorial team.

    Or they announced Tom Breevort too early.

    We shall see but things arent looking that great right now.

    And my favorite character is in limbo with no explanation.

    Some of these writers should have stepped it up during Reign of X but no they just gave us average.

  14. #134
    Astonishing Member Kingdom X's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CGAR View Post
    IDK what happened but a lot of my interest is now gone.

    Just kind of knowing a lot of writers used this to decompress stories or tell stories that really didnt have much focus on the big ideas Hickman had set up kind of make me glad that we are getting kind of a restart.

    Or maybe just reading all the missed opportunities makes me resent the current editorial team.

    Or they announced Tom Breevort too early.

    We shall see but things arent looking that great right now.

    And my favorite character is in limbo with no explanation.

    Some of these writers should have stepped it up during Reign of X but no they just gave us average.
    I’m not surprised they killed off interest. The whole reason this era garnered interest (even when the writing could be off at times) was because we were finally getting to experience mutants as more than just underdogs and genocide victims. For them to center the last YEAR of this era (“Before the Fall” one-shots started in May) on mutants being in the lowest place they’ve been in years was such a mistake.

    Not saying we shouldn’t have seen Krakoa struggle, but there are ways to add conflict and stakes to a narrative without literally ending things on a low-point.

  15. #135
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grunty View Post
    So what "tribes" do the people of Krakoa have besides being "mutant"?

    Ay, there's the rub. Hickman's original writing had the mutants rejecting "humanity" and their related identities, while claiming to have something much better, which never actualy manifested, likely by design because nobody in the industry would have the time or be willing to spend the energy on creating something like that from scratch.

    No culture, no identity beyond natural super powers, no tribes. They have an economy, a military, a nebulous cabal of self appointed overlords claiming to be a government, but no foundation on which any of that actualy stands.

    Essentialy a tree floating in the air with it's roots cut off and none growing back. Hence 250.000 people with no identity that a writer would have to consider when presenting them all as utterly passive and easily manipulated by a second rate Sinister Clone.

    And as mentioned before, that is perhaps one of the key points where future writers could start before considering building another full blown mutant "nation" from nothing.

    Introduce and present separated civilian communities of mutants with their own little set of customs, ideals, goals and conflicts, but without wiping them out shortly thereafter for cheap shocks. Let them grow and stay and when there are enough some of them could gather to form a nation that can actualy stay around for years to come.
    The decision of the former Morlocks to continue to live as a group, but off of Krakoa, seemed like the only real sop to this notion, although the choice of several nation's mutant populations to also not emigrate en masse also could have served to constitute mutant factions. While I don't recall it being mentioned much, I saw little or any of the various Russian mutants introduced back in that X-Factor annual, or the Chinese mutants shown in various books from Contest to Champions to Alpha Flight, or even the *many* Canadian mutants other than cameos by Stitch and some barely-used presence by Madison Jeffries in Sabertooth and the Exiles, which *could* have been explored as factions either of mutants who remained tied to their birth-nations, *or* Krakoans 'living abroad' in nations that would allow that, or some of them straight up emigrating to Krakoa and more presence of foreign mutants like Jade Dragon, Sibercat or Pathway in the background of various books (or even active, with, like, speaking roles!).

    But that's just 'human factions' that mutants are clinging to.

    Back in Astonishing X-Men, Emma suggests to Scott that Xavier has always seen psychics like himself and Jean as 'a cut above' mutants with non-psychic abilities, and while it's entirely possible that she's not 100% wrong, I do think she's 100% projecting there, as she has shown favoritism to Empath in the Hellions, and Hellion in the second Hellions, the two members of those respective teams who are mostly explicitly 'psychic' (an empath and a telekinetic). And regardless of how true that is, there are certainly *other* psychics that might feel that way, and 'class' themselves differently than non-psychic mutants. They've already been shown with psychic classes, all the way back to Genosha, in which telepaths like Mentat and precognitives like Teenage Negasonic Warhead are split off from students with no psychic ability to develop.

    Or mutants with purely physical / animalistic traits. And so, mutant 'classes' could exist. The animal form types like Wolfsbane, Catseye, Mellencamp and Shark Girl, but also Wolverine! The elemental manipulators. Those that have an altered form / state (stone, metal, wood, pink paraffin wax with suspended organs, whatever). Teleporters.

    The 'flying class' mutants I could see being another faction, that could split across psychics (flying telekinetics), elementals (like Wind-Dancer), physical state mutants (like Dust) or animal form mutants (like any of the five girls with bug-wings).

    And that's not even getting into that Omega nonsense.

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