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  1. #61
    Beast-stan of CBR Mungho's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rift View Post
    Tbh if we go back to the old status quo, I don't even care if the next era has good writing. It's really disheartening to leave an era where the mutants having a good, exciting time where they thrive. It wasn't perfect, but it was a lot better than what was going on immediately before. It's not fun to read and just be miserable all the time - I mean, look at Spider-Man right now. And even if the status quo is more positive and forward-facing than what we're used to, I don't think I can enjoy the steps forward without the underlying cynicism of "Why bother expecting any progress? Especially if any progress they make will likely never be as good as Krakoa?"

    I mentioned in another thread, but if I were a mutant in the MU, seeing the entire world comply with my genocide and our leaders let me down nearly every single time, I'd have no hope. Tbh I'd probably kill flatscans out of spite, knowing that I'm doomed either way. But tbh my solution to everything is either "add Hellion" or "kill flatscans."

    And tbh, it's become an issue with Marvel as a whole, but it's connected to my cynicism with a post-Krakoa era and I really gotta rant about it. Everything, from characters to friendships to romances to status quos, is watered down or warped to fit whatever is needed at the moment. Everything new is either rushed or forced as the writers scramble to make their mark, but it's all washed away the second they're not looking. Why bother caring about anything when it feels like Marvel doesn't care?
    Yes, this is my problem with it as well. The characters are warped, twisted into unrecognizable shapes and then hammered, screaming, into round holes. The characters are just props, shuffled around and changed just to suit whatever story the current writer has in mind, previous characterization be damned.

    And then there's the idiocy. SO many characters have to act like idiots for many of these Krakoan-era plots to even work. If your plot can't work unless the characters suddenly become brain-dead, you need to re-think your plot.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rift View Post
    X-Force: I didn't care for it, even before it went to crap. Like I'm sure the issues were good, but I wasn't vibing with it. I didn't like the vibe. Other than that, we all know how this book went down. I'm still at the candlelight vigil for Mungho's hopes and dreams.
    D'aww, thanks . I hope for your dreams too of them doing more with poor Hellion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Icefanatic View Post
    Krakoa started off with wild inventions but also massive seeming contradictions to characters and history. Everything wrong before Krakoa had now been dialed up to an absolute eleven, with the shiny and the new to distract from it. So many characters were now so off it was impossible to believe they were even the same people. The personal relationships that had been a hallmark of the franchise for decades were mostly ignored as characters became chess-pieces moved around a board, probably because it made all the massive changes to characters and seeming alterations to continuity easier to hand-wave away or outright just ignore.

    The X-Men now rejected their lifelong goal of coexistence for Mutant Separatism and Mutant Supremacy. The X-Men now functioned like a cult. Fans were anxious for answers. Were they all being mind controlled? Were we witnessing an alternate reality?

    Instead of explanations of all the massive wrongness and a correction of it, we just got more of it. Piles of it with no end in sight, year after year after year.
    You succinctly hit the nail on the head of my issues with this era(well, other then Beast). I really disliked the cultish vibes I was getting, along with the mutant supremacy. And the friendships many of them had just have evaporated.

    And the wrongness, as you say, just going on and on. I wonder if this is the greatest train-wreck in the history of comics?
    Not removing this signature until Beast is written as a good guy again.

  2. #62
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    No. Hells no this is not the worst tranwreck. Calling it a train wreck is being hyperbolic in the first place and despite my opinion of specific elements and series in it, as a whole the Krakoa. Era came nowhere near the nadir occupied by stories like Marville, Identity Crisis, Heroes in Crisis, Civil War I and II, Inhumans vs X-men, or Countdown to Final Crisis.

  3. #63
    Braddock Isle JB's Avatar
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    This was a lot of fun, going over the Krakoan age from the beginning. My usual rule of thumb is to try the first two issues of a title/run before dropping it, so anything labeled as "dropped" was after two issues unless otherwise specified.
    Any title in blue bold means I'll reread it for years to come.

    House of X/Powers of X - Mind-blowing. Will love forever.

    Dawn Of X:

    X-Men by Hickman - Though it was a bit scattered at times I loved most of it.
    Excalibur - I was struggling with it during the first half but after X of Swords it became bae.
    Fallen Angels - Dropped it.
    Marauders by Duggan - I enjoyed it for the most part but I wanted more balance of the team.
    New Mutants by Hickman then Brisson - Enjoyed Hickman's run then dropped it.
    X-Force - One of my favorite titles in the beginning. Super strong start but then I dropped it after about 10 issues.

    Wave 2:
    Cable - Dropped it.
    Empyre: X-Men - Strong opening issue then it fizzled. Did Wanda no favors and putting Polaris on a cover without her actually showing up was wack.
    Giant-Size X-Men - Loved Jean Grey and Emma Frost, Magneto, and Storm. Lukewarm on the others but still liked them.
    Hellions - Loved, loved, loved. From beginning to end.
    Juggernaut - Dropped it.
    X-Factor - Interesting and different, I thought it was good.
    X-Men/Fantastic Four - After issue #1 I honestly only kept reading to partake in the epic arguments on CBR.
    Wolverine - Dropped it but returned for XoS tie-in.

    X of Swords - I loved Creation, Stasis, and Destruction and some individual issues. Mixed bag though as I didn't care for a lot of the tournament contests.

    Reign of X:

    New Mutants by Vita Ayala - Dropped it but I've been revisiting it on MU recently and finding myself enjoying it now.
    X-Men by Duggan - I absolutely loved Year One. Year Two didn't compare but there were still things I liked about it and I'm enjoying it for the most part currently. I'm just not into Rasputin and I have no history with Kamala so I'm looking forward to more familiar X-Men showing up.
    Children of the Atom - Better than I expected and I've been revisiting it now that Carmen Cruz is becoming a favorite.
    Devil's Reign: X-Men - I didn't read it when it first came out but I read it recently and I really liked it!

    Planet-Sized X-Men - This is bae. One of the single best comics I've ever read in my life.

    I read all of the tie-in's for the first Hellfire Gala and I had a lot of fun with it.
    S.W.O.R.D. - Dropped it.
    Way of X - Dropped it.
    The Trial of Magneto - Dropped it but heard about the conclusion and read it.
    X-Corp - Dropped it.

    Inferno - Awesome.
    X Lives/Deaths of Wolverine - No.

    Destiny of X:

    Hellfire Gala 2022 - Enjoyed it but not as much as the OG.
    AXE: Judgment Day - Ok so I actually liked the actually 6-part mini but most of the tie-in's dragged the X-titles down for me. The only exception was the Immortal Nightcrawler issue which is one of my favorite single issues of all time.
    Dark Web: X-Men - Strong start, I liked that it settled things between Jean and Madelyne and led to the Embassy, a setting that I like.
    Deadpool - Never picked it up.
    Knights of X - Loved it, no surprise. Otherworld death problem solved, Askani's timeline powers reborn, and a mutant running the realm for the first time.
    Legion of X - Dropped it.
    Immortal X-Men - I have to be honest, I wasn't crazy about it at first until the Nightcrawler issue. I've enjoyed it much more since then.
    Marauders by Orlando - Dropped it.
    Sabretooth - Loved it.
    Sabretooth & the Exiles - Loved most of it but became much more interested in the team rather than Creed.
    The Secret X-Men - Never picked it up.
    X-Men Red - This is bae, one of the most modern runs in comics.
    X-Terminators - Dropped it.

    Sins of Sinister - *sigh* I stayed with it to keep up with the line but I felt like we were trudging through the mud. The wormhole moment was the best part.

    Betsy Braddock: Captain Britain - Loved and it was kind of my bright light at the time as we went through the Sins era. This title and X-Men were the only ones I looked forward to.
    Bishop: War College - I felt cheated. I wanted to love this. I stayed until the end. So mad.
    New Mutants: Lethal Legion - Never picked up.
    Rogue & Gambit - Dropped it like it was hot.

    Before the Fall one-shots: Loved Heralds and Mutant First Strike.

    From about A.X.E. until the Hellfire Gala 2023, I was at my most indifferent with the line. I loved the Gala though and I've been enjoying Fall of X for the most part.
    "Danielle... I intend to do something rash and violent." - Betsy Braddock
    Krakoa, Arakko, and Otherworld forever!

  4. #64
    Braddock Isle JB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saithor View Post
    No. Hells no this is not the worst tranwreck. Calling it a train wreck is being hyperbolic in the first place and despite my opinion of specific elements and series in it, as a whole the Krakoa. Era came nowhere near the nadir occupied by stories like Marville, Identity Crisis, Heroes in Crisis, Civil War I and II, Inhumans vs X-men, or Countdown to Final Crisis.
    A pig just flew by my window as I agree with you.
    "Danielle... I intend to do something rash and violent." - Betsy Braddock
    Krakoa, Arakko, and Otherworld forever!

  5. #65
    Astonishing Member Kingdom X's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JamJams View Post
    These were very enlightening posts! It's neat to see which books people picked up and how they felt about them through each phase. Definately a common theme in interest dipping its lowest with Fall of X so I guess them deciding to wrap it up after this phase is not a terrible one.

    Thank you all for sharing so far!



    Thank YOU for the brilliant post idea!

    I feel like the lack of interest in Fall has less to do with the overall Krakoa era, but more to do w/ the direction the line went in. Tonally it’s more aligned w/ Rosenberg’s run or the IvX. We’re back to the majority of mutants missing and the rest have the worst living conditions ever.

    One thing I think we were particularly robbed of was a chance for Krakoa to better itself. There WERE a lot of problems with Krakoa, but I always felt those were intentional. Books like Ayala’s NM, WoX, Sabretooth, and near the end Immortal really highlighted the cracks in the foundation. And RIGHT when we were going to get a big change with the Council resigning we instead got Rosencanny 2.0. And now I fear we may never get a “better Krakoa” because Brevoort may want a clean(ish) slate.

    Also while I feel empathy for those whose faves have been misused this era (my boy Prodigy’s dead body was being flung around at TWO Hellfire galas) I think we gotta stop blaming this status quo for EVERYTHING that went wrong w/ character use. Some of that is just the writer’s poor choices. For example, Storm had no good stories during the Decimation era, but that had very little to do with the anything inherent to that status quo and everything to do w/ writers and editors not using her. A lot of these writers would have misused your faves even if we were in the mansion for the past 5 years.
    Last edited by Kingdom X; 10-25-2023 at 10:12 AM.

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jbenito View Post
    A pig just flew by my window as I agree with you.
    I don’t remember our disagreements ever really being that heated tbh? Overall I think Krakoa was a good idea with bad execution and I hold to that. We’ll see what replaces it.

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kingdom X View Post
    [/B]

    Thank YOU for the brilliant post idea!

    I feel like the lack of interest in Fall has less to do with the overall Krakoa era, but more to do w/ the direction the line went in. Tonally it’s more aligned w/ Rosenberg’s run or the IvX. We’re back to the majority of mutants missing and the rest have the worst living conditions ever.

    One thing I think we were particularly robbed of was a chance for Krakoa to better itself. There WERE a lot of problems with Krakoa, but I always felt those were intentional. Books like Ayala’s NM, WoX, Sabretooth, and near the end Immortal really highlighted the cracks in the foundation. And RIGHT when we were going to get a big change with the Council resigning we instead got Rosencanny 2.0. And now I fear we may never get a “better Krakoa” because Brevoort may want a clean(ish) slate.

    Also while I feel empathy for those whose faves have been misused this era (my boy Prodigy’s dead body was being flung around at TWO Hellfire galas) I think we gotta stop blaming this status quo for EVERYTHING that went wrong w/ character use. Some of that is just the writer’s poor choices. For example, Storm had no good stories during the Decimation era, but that had very little to do with the anything inherent to that status quo and everything to do w/ writers and editors not using her. A lot of these writers would have misused your faves even if we were in the mansion for the past 5 years.
    This 100%, and also the general impressions that Krakoa isn't going to survive the transition to Brevoort's tenure, at least not in any prominent way.

    Its incredibly anticlimactic to spend four years building up to some epic battle for the fate of Krakoa - and explicitly use 'the final battle for Krakoa's future starts here' in the solicit text for most books still three months out (Cable, Dead X-Men, etc).....

    When the general consensus is that fate has already been decided and there's not going to be a Krakoa to read about or follow after the conclusion to this era, and what possible kind of meaningful victory can mutants have in light of that?

    Which leaves most people who DID like the era, and who came to it because it offered a change of pace from the constant doom and gloom, something different, new and positive and exciting for mutants......left with the same general status quo of Rosenberg style misery that had those readers uninterested before Krakoa. While those people who DIDNT like the era, and who were turned off it because of all the reasons cited, aren't generally that interested in reading back to get the full context of most of the titles involved in the Fall of X and end of this era and are just waiting for the next era to start to see if they like it better.

    So its like. Uh, X-Office. Buddies. Pals.

    Whomst the **** is it you actually think you're still appealing to here at this point?

  8. #68
    Astonishing Member RAWRlrus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kingdom X View Post
    [/B]

    Thank YOU for the brilliant post idea!

    I feel like the lack of interest in Fall has less to do with the overall Krakoa era, but more to do w/ the direction the line went in. Tonally it’s more aligned w/ Rosenberg’s run or the IvX. We’re back to the majority of mutants missing and the rest have the worst living conditions ever.

    One thing I think we were particularly robbed of was a chance for Krakoa to better itself. There WERE a lot of problems with Krakoa, but I always felt those were intentional. Books like Ayala’s NM, WoX, Sabretooth, and near the end Immortal really highlighted the cracks in the foundation. And RIGHT when we were going to get a big change with the Council resigning we instead got Rosencanny 2.0. And now I fear we may never get a “better Krakoa” because Brevoort may want a clean(ish) slate.

    Also while I feel empathy for those whose faves have been misused this era (my boy Prodigy’s dead body was being flung around at TWO Hellfire galas) I think we gotta stop blaming this status quo for EVERYTHING that went wrong w/ character use. Some of that is just the writer’s poor choices. For example, Storm had no good stories during the Decimation era, but that had very little to do with the anything inherent to that status quo and everything to do w/ writers and editors not using her. A lot of these writers would have misused your faves even if we were in the mansion for the lpast 5 years.
    I think the lack of interest is (at this point) a combination of things stalling out for the most part as we were waiting for Fall of X to happen, the Brevoort news and now FoTHoX/RoTPoX so Fall doesn't even really feel like a Fall.

    The council resigning is a huge disappointment for me. So much intrigue set up by it and I think it could have been interesting to if it had been announced before that attack on the Gala, so Krakoa is now leaderless but those untrusted leaders are also the people stepping up during the Fall. Would they have been trusted or redeemed in the eyes of the citizens? Now its likely to just be ignored.

  9. #69
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    Another bad thing about the era is they never made Moira's robot villain turn thing make any sense.

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kitty&Piotr<3 View Post
    Another bad thing about the era is they never made Moira's robot villain turn thing make any sense.
    It never made any sense and also shoved Omega Sentinel into the background because Orchis is honestly not a good villain. Even members of it who are okay on their own like Stasis are dragged down by their involvement in that anti-mutant clown show

  11. #71
    Fantastic Member Agent Grayson's Avatar
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    I have mixed feelings about the Krakoan era. If I had to sum it up, I'd say it was built on great concepts but more often than not floundered in the execution. I'm ready for something new.

    House of X and Powers of X are both incredible minis. They should be credited for breathing life back into the X-franchise, which had become so focused on extinction and death that they'd ceased to be appealing. Heroes should be pushed and tested in a story, but editorial's clear push to make the X-Men irrelevant (assumedly due to the complications around the movie rights) meant that there was never any victory to make us root for them. It was a pretty sad state of affairs, so arguably Krakoa's greatest achievement was that it pulled us out of that cycle of doom.

    However, pretty much immediately, it became clear that the Krakoan era wasn't going to live up to the awesome premise that had been established in HoX/PoX. The questions that had been raised in the minis were buried and forgotten about in favour of mostly boring or unnecessary plots. (Find me one person who thinks the time spent with Hordeculture was more interesting than pretty much anything else that panel space could've been used for.) Characters acted strangely or were just completely unrecognisable, and while at first this seemed like a sign that something was wrong, it became the norm. Everyone just started acting exactly how they needed to for the basic setting of Krakoa to function.

    Even if you ignore the basics - like the X-Men giving up on Xavier's dream with no real explanation as to why, the complete lack of discussion about or addressing of the villain amnesty, the relative lack of meaningful character interactions/reunions - characterisation across the board started to get worse. Cyclops and Jean's dispute over the Brood, everyone becoming rabid fans of Apocalypse, whatever was going on with Nightcrawler any time I attempted to get stuck into a Spurrier book, Kitty's midlife crisis in Marauders, Betsy and Rachel's forced relationship, Beast's complete slide into villainy, Moira being twisted into an entirely different character...the list goes on. Change is good, but it has to make sense...otherwise, you might as well use completely new characters that are blank slates. The history of these characters should factor in; that's what makes things feel like natural development and not like plot-induced behaviour, which is what much of the Krakoan era has felt like to me.

    Characters often came off looking stupid because of it. Sinister's betrayed everyone again?! Humans are distrustful of Krakoa because its ruling council includes a number of genocidal maniacs?! Beast is doing bad stuff like he has been since Krakoa was founded?! Who could've seen these things coming?!

    On top of this, the actual plots that characters were being sacrificed for often fell short. At this point, I'd describe the storylines around Moira X, Sinister, the Dominion, and any future storyline as a mess. Duggan's X-Men has been hit and miss. The Otherworld stuff was not for me at all and felt like a waste of a good selection of characters...I can't believe I'm now more invested in Kwannon as a character than Betsy. X of Swords was one of the worst crossovers in recent memory. These arcs, and more, felt like treading water when we could have been diving into the meat of Krakoa: did the X-Men acknowledge Krakoa as a replacement for Xavier's dream? How did mutant society as a whole feel about the Quiet Council? Was there something untoward about the way old wounds were simply forgotten or did the Krakoan dream really have that kind of impact? I thought these kinds of issues would begin to be addressed

    That being said, there have been some real highlights. Immortal X-Men has largely been great. I love the character focus and it's delivered some great moments, such as Xavier's monologue. As crossovers go, AXE: Judgment Day was entertaining and was a good step towards reintegrating the X-Men with other heroes. I've enjoyed most of what I've read of Fall of X so far, which doesn't feel at all like a return to the extinction days given that we know the majority of characters killed are actually alive. And, of course, Ewing's X-Men Red has been a standout, particularly for Storm, Magneto, Sunspot and the Arakkii.

    This has become a much longer post than I intended, but I think the Krakoan era is worth some thought. Whether you love it or you hate it - and I'm probably somewhere in the middle - you can't deny the impact it had in rejuvenating the X-franchise. I'm optimistic about what comes next. Ultimately, whether the X-Men are living on an island nation or a Westchester mansion, I just want them to read like the characters we've known and loved for decades - along with organic character development, engaging plots, and compelling villains. Roll on the next era!
    "When the mob and the press and the whole world tell you to move, your job is to plant yourself like a tree beside the river of truth, and tell the whole world ó No, you move."

  12. #72
    Fantastic Member Ulysian_Thracs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rift View Post
    Tbh if we go back to the old status quo, I don't even care if the next era has good writing. It's really disheartening to leave an era where the mutants having a good, exciting time where they thrive. It wasn't perfect, but it was a lot better than what was going on immediately before. It's not fun to read and just be miserable all the time - I mean, look at Spider-Man right now. And even if the status quo is more positive and forward-facing than what we're used to, I don't think I can enjoy the steps forward without the underlying cynicism of "Why bother expecting any progress? Especially if any progress they make will likely never be as good as Krakoa?"

    I mentioned in another thread, but if I were a mutant in the MU, seeing the entire world comply with my genocide and our leaders let me down nearly every single time, I'd have no hope. Tbh I'd probably kill flatscans out of spite, knowing that I'm doomed either way. But tbh my solution to everything is either "add Hellion" or "kill flatscans."

    And tbh, it's become an issue with Marvel as a whole, but it's connected to my cynicism with a post-Krakoa era and I really gotta rant about it. Everything, from characters to friendships to romances to status quos, is watered down or warped to fit whatever is needed at the moment. Everything new is either rushed or forced as the writers scramble to make their mark, but it's all washed away the second they're not looking. Why bother caring about anything when it feels like Marvel doesn't care?

    Which is very overdramatic of me, I know. But still. It's hard to hope for the best when you're expecting the worst. Even during the Krakoa era, every event had us asking "are you going to drop the bomb or not?"


    Tbh I'd be super against that. A lot of Krakoa's appeal for me, came from the unsavory elements. I can see why people are against the Moira change, but I really loved her backstory and role up until the robot crap. I loved the time travel and sci-fi themes, the doomed futures, all the mystery and intrigue baked into the nation's founding. I loved the underlying darkness to the world, and the meta-narratives. Half the fun of the early days was sussing out the mysteries and trying to figure out how the pieces fit together. If it was just Jean's passion project, it wouldn't be nearly as intriguing or fun.
    But isn't the sin qua non of the X-Men/Mutants the bigotry they face? For me, that and the school setting was what set them apart from the Avengers or JLA or any other super team. So, yes. I hope they go back to the 'old times'. But is there some happy medium, Rift? The only thing I miss as much as the X-Kids is the Academy setting. I want a school book, either with the X-Kids as teachers or students.
    I'm not totally useless. I can always be used as a bad example...

  13. #73
    Fantastic Member wlfking's Avatar
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    Only skimmed a few comments at the beginning and end of this thread but uh . . . Guess I just put my two cents down anyway.

    I hope the island sticks around. I think it should just be where most mutants are from now on. And most X-Titles can take place in other places on earth if people want.
    There is plenty of duds and stuff I don't care for in this era but it is my understanding that that is part of many many eras of superhero comics. I don't think Krakoa need to be central to stories(unless someone comes up with a super cool idea involving it) going forward but I don't think it needs to go either.

    But some stuff I'd like to see tossed include all that crap they've done to Beast. Just bizarre and not anything remotely interesting or entertaining about it imo. I'm not his biggest fan and even leaving that aside, the book it mostly happened in was an insufferable bore. It was one the first X-books I ever followed and one of the first I dropped. And that was before all the crap with Beast got really started.
    Last edited by wlfking; 10-25-2023 at 12:53 PM.
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  14. #74
    Beast-stan of CBR Mungho's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saithor View Post
    No. Hells no this is not the worst tranwreck. Calling it a train wreck is being hyperbolic in the first place and despite my opinion of specific elements and series in it, as a whole the Krakoa. Era came nowhere near the nadir occupied by stories like Marville, Identity Crisis, Heroes in Crisis, Civil War I and II, Inhumans vs X-men, or Countdown to Final Crisis.
    Quote Originally Posted by Saithor View Post
    I don’t remember our disagreements ever really being that heated tbh? Overall I think Krakoa was a good idea with bad execution and I hold to that. We’ll see what replaces it.
    I was being hyperbolic, sorry. The Krakoan era has hurt me the way it's treated characters I love(you know who, and Moira), as well as the things mentioned above. I did really like the idea of Krakoa at first. The mutants with their own nation where they can relax and let their hair down. But it's been bogged down by, as others have said, poor implementation of ideas.

    How about we compromise and just call Percy's run on X-Force the train-wreck?
    Not removing this signature until Beast is written as a good guy again.

  15. #75
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    Almost makes me wonder if Krakoa had some low level tp that ...helped...everyone get along. One would think that the likes of Warren and Betsy or Lorna or Forge or Alex on the council. The Krakoa Era definitely had its favorites...

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