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  1. #76
    Beast-stan of CBR Mungho's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LoganAlpha30X33 View Post
    Almost makes me wonder if Krakoa had some low level tp that ...helped...everyone get along. One would think that the likes of Warren and Betsy or Lorna or Forge or Alex on the council. The Krakoa Era definitely had its favorites...
    That's right, I've been meaning to ask. Since it's been shown several characters have been controlled by outside forces, is it possible that MOST characters are being controlled, to make everything work toward some, possibly evil, goal?
    Not removing this signature until Beast is written as a good guy again.

  2. #77
    Fantastic Member Agent Grayson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mungho View Post
    That's right, I've been meaning to ask. Since it's been shown several characters have been controlled by outside forces, is it possible that MOST characters are being controlled, to make everything work toward some, possibly evil, goal?
    In the early days of Krakoa, it seemed like that was a possibility. It’s too far down the road for a reveal like that, though. It would completely undermine the last four years of stories.
    "When the mob and the press and the whole world tell you to move, your job is to plant yourself like a tree beside the river of truth, and tell the whole world ó No, you move."

  3. #78
    Astonishing Member Kingdom X's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LoganAlpha30X33 View Post
    Almost makes me wonder if Krakoa had some low level tp that ...helped...everyone get along. One would think that the likes of Warren and Betsy or Lorna or Forge or Alex on the council. The Krakoa Era definitely had its favorites...
    One thing about the early Krakoa era is that it chose mystery and vaguely ominous vibes over character consistency. We didn’t get any information on the missing 8 months OR how the most well-known characters got on board with Krakoa, which HONESTLY would have been as easy as seeing the A-listers have a conversation about how they have some reservations, but Krakoa is the best option for their people after being turned on by humanity in Rosencanny.

    But INSTEAD we got no answers which led to the rampant speculation. “Are they all clones, and are the real X-Men being trapped in pods?”, “Did Xavier plant a psychic suggestion in everyone?” “Is the island pacifying everyone?” These are all valid questions and I HONESTLY think Hickman kept things vague to drum up intrigue and interest in the line.

    Problem is (and this could be because Hickman left), none of those theories ended up being true AND we didn’t get any insights into character motivations leading into Krakoa. So the books started slowly sanitizing the undesirable aspects without ever truly addressing them. It felt like they wanted to have their cake and eat it too.

    I personally find it very believable that the X-Men would eventually say enough is enough and try something new after the mansion failed and separating themselves from Genosha also didn’t work. But for characters that are this old that have followed the same dream for damn near 60 years, I think you should show them making that decision to change motivations on-panel, instead of telling audiences all while dropping spooky clues about what’s going on behind the scenes.
    Last edited by Kingdom X; 10-25-2023 at 01:48 PM.

  4. #79
    Sarveśām Svastir Bhavatu Devaishwarya's Avatar
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    While I will wit to hear/read news regarding the new status quo under Brevoort...ie team members, creative teams etc. I can't say that I'm truly surprised. Well and so.
    My Summer rain. My rooftop in Japan. My quiet in the storm. *cries* Al Ewing is GOD...Praise His name! Uplift Him in song! Glorify His works!

  5. #80
    Fantastic Member Agent Grayson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kingdom X View Post
    One thing about the early Krakoa era is that it chose mystery and vaguely ominous vibes over character consistency. We didn’t get any information on the missing 8 months OR how the most well-known characters got on board with Krakoa, which HONESTLY would have been as easy as seeing the A-listers have a conversation about how they have some reservations, but Krakoa is the best option for their people after being turned on by humanity in Rosencanny.

    But INSTEAD we got no answers which led to the rampant speculation. “Are they all clones, and are the real X-Men being trapped in pods?”, “Did Xavier plant a psychic suggestion in everyone?” “Is the island pacifying everyone?” These are all valid questions and I HONESTLY think Hickman kept things vague to drum up intrigue and interest in the line.

    Problem is (and this could be because Hickman left), none of those theories ended up being true AND we didn’t get any insights into character motivations leading into Krakoa. So the books started slowly sanitizing the undesirable aspects without ever truly addressing them. It felt like they wanted to have their cake and eat it too.
    Exactly this. I wonder if it was Hickman’s plan to have these hints pan out into something and that got dropped when he left, or if they were always just red herrings.
    "When the mob and the press and the whole world tell you to move, your job is to plant yourself like a tree beside the river of truth, and tell the whole world ó No, you move."

  6. #81
    House of Frost NewMutant's Avatar
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    House of X/Powers of X - Might be the best one and done X-story.

    Dawn Of X:

    X-Men by Hickman - Some great issues. The United Nations meeting was a stand out. Love Synch being slipped into the spotlight. But the series was most world building.
    Excalibur - Finally separating Betsy and Kwannon was on was the best things this era has done. This series wasn't for me. The magic aspect isn't my favorite. I enjoyed how it connected to the OG Excalibur but never found an interesting footing.
    Fallen Angels - This was a big WTH when it was announced and most Kwannon set up. Better than expected, nut not memorable aside from Kwannon.
    Marauders by Duggan - Loved. Duggan is most a surface writing but he had a great cast. This felt flagship at the time.
    New Mutants by Hickman then Brisson - Hickman shined. Brisson gives us Glob.
    X-Force - Full of promise that never develops.

    Wave 2:
    Cable - Better than expected. I surprising miss Kid Cable but not a fan of two of the same character around.
    Empyre: X-Men - Eh. The X-Men tie issue with Magneto was better.
    Giant-Size X-Men - These had some great moments. Wonderful art.
    Hellions - Surprise hit. Preludes Sins of Sinister well.
    Juggernaut - Who cares?
    X-Factor - I really liked this series. The cast blended well together. gone too soon.
    X-Men/Fantastic Four - I enjoyed it but it felt very disconnected.
    Wolverine - love logan, but been there done that. Pass.

    X of Swords - I loved Creation, Stasis, and Destruction and some individual issues. Mixed bag though as I didn't care for a lot of the tournament contests. (Agreed)

    Reign of X:

    New Mutants by Vita Ayala - I thought Shadow King arc was great. The art really held the series up. How is poor Anole a former CEO and a bartender and still with the kids???
    X-Men by Duggan - Year Two felt more disjointed and more about the mini and event tie-ins.
    Children of the Atom - Heard great things, but didn't read. Not a fan of adding new characters with so many unused.
    Devil's Reign: X-Men - A great mini for any Emma fan. It was fun to see her interact with the larger MU in the past. Sets up a relation with Kingpin. Great art.

    Hellfire Gala - Year One / Planet-Sized X-Men - LOVED the first Gala. What a fun new way to do a comic event!

    S.W.O.R.D. - Better than expected and I wish went on longer. Many of the interesting issues a dropped with the Red switch.
    Way of X - The Spark is interesting, but Si goes too wacky with characters I've not too invested in.
    The Trial of Magneto - I repeat... WHAT TRIAL? Poor LW story got bloated into a MESS.
    X-Corp - Needed a better writer. I really wanted more from Angel and Monet.

    Inferno - I repeat... WHAT INFERNO? These mistitle books. UGH. Great Hickman, but no HoX.
    X Lives/Deaths of Wolverine - I was actually looking forward to something Wolverine focused since he (THANKFULLY) isn't in ever book anymore and this was a nightmare. Moira completely butchered here.

    Destiny of X:

    Hellfire Gala 2022 - Enjoyed it but not as much as the OG.
    AXE: Judgment Day - If this was just the mini it would have read much better. Not an exciting for KG.
    Dark Web: X-Men - Oh look a title that actually connects to Inferno. This was a fun mini.
    Deadpool - Never picked it up.
    Knights of X - Loved the inclusion of Bei and Star but suffered the same issues as Excalibur which is where the should have left it.
    Legion of X - ZZZZZZ
    Immortal X-Men - Amazing. Got bogged down with AXE but some great character work. One of this eras best.
    Marauders by Orlando - Biggest disappointment. Love SO Midnighter. But yikes and the art HURT it.
    Sabretooth - Over hyped
    Sabretooth & the Exiles - See above
    The Secret X-Men - I like that they showcased the character in the elections.
    X-Men Red - Manages to be a great book with a lot of new characters
    X-Terminators - No interest

    Sins of Sinister - I think this reads better as a whole. Its a great Sinister story. One of the better events of this era. (but also lets lay off Sinister for a bit)

    Betsy Braddock: Captain Britain - Make it Excalibur
    Bishop: War College - I didn't read it and it looked worse than I expected it to be.
    New Mutants: Lethal Legion - Never picked up. Keep in the original NM series please.
    Rogue & Gambit - Great for their fans.

    Before the Fall one-shots: Heralds and Mutant First Strike stood out but it each one of was solid.
    I was trying to do too much and not doing any of it as well as I could. But I've had a change of mind... though not everyone shall enjoy it. I will.

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  7. #82
    Fantastic Member Ilargi's Avatar
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    Rogue & Gambit - Great for their fans.
    No. We hate It, thanks.lol

  8. #83
    Astonishing Member Kingdom X's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Grayson View Post
    Exactly this. I wonder if it was Hickman’s plan to have these hints pan out into something and that got dropped when he left, or if they were always just red herrings.
    I get the feeling they were red herrings. Hickman loves to write morally ambiguous characters, so it feels like he wanted to take them out of the traditional hero camp. Even with as ominous as he was writing Moira, he’s said in interviews that he didn’t intent for her to be a villain.

    I can’t really get mad at the guy, because it did work at the time to get the fandom to engage but it falls apart when the reigns are passed to someone like Duggan that writes very traditional superhero stories and dynamics.

  9. #84
    Mighty Member Malachi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ilargi View Post
    No. We hate It, thanks.lol
    Haha yes it was a chore to get through.

    HoX/PoX. A teaser. Nothing more and nothing less. I can't see this as a complete work. Some issues were better then others but overall this is a blueprint for something we never got. It was great in getting readers hyped, interested and intrigued but it never had do deliver on these things. I was hoping to judge it more favorably as I thought by now I would have seen the majority, if not all of the ideas it presented, play out.

    X-men by Hickman Ok. Uneven but at least it tried giving us different parts of Krakoa. The CoTV story is abyssal because it goes against so many things I hold dear when it comes to storytelling. Still I am grateful because looking at it made me understand myself better. Helped me understand what I want from comics.

    Fallen Angels. Gave it up after 1 issue. I don't remember much about it except that it had young Cable and didnt' write Laura good.

    Excalibur. Tini Howard had big ideas and then most of it got lost in a slurry that kept on morphing into something else. My favorite Gambit was lost here and went from being overpowered to underpowered. From a joke to the supportive husband of the year. Excalibur would have needed a companion series that explored everything that Tini Howard seemingly skipped over. It would have added so much.

    X-men/Fantstic Four. I remember thinking that this was the first big sign that the wheels were coming off. It was just bad and pointless.

    X- of swords. Weird and unfocused. It suffers from many of the problems that "character goes on quest and fights duel" events does. It didn't help either that Excalibur only involved Betsy. The others were more or less sidelined through it all. An event often works better if it can involve all titles and their characters. Giving them somethign meaningful adn in character to do. Excalibur just jettsioned that and focused on the character it already focused on.

    X-men by Duggan. Duggan experimented with team balance and failed. I read it for Rogue and she was more or less awol through it all.

    Hellfire Gala. The different designs was a highpoint. A shame that some artists are clearly weaker designers then others. Not everyone can be Russel Dauterman.

    Way of X. I liked parts of it. I wanted to like it more then I ended up liking it as I bought the Onslaught issue but still haven't read it.

    Knights of X. Better then Excalibur but was to condensed. Probably should have been about 8 issues. Gambit got killed off and it was a mercy killing by now.

    X-terminators. Fun, but to cheesy for me and I prefer my Laura less of a party girl.

    Bishop: War College. Bought the first issue. Still not sure what this mini was. A mess.

    Rogue & Gambit. I made it through it alive, but damn that hurt. When the writer haven't researched it's characters and OFF-panel developments are key, well then your are better off not reading it.

    Dark X-men and Children of the Vault. Two good mini's who are some of the best I have read during this era.
    Last edited by Malachi; 10-25-2023 at 02:31 PM.

  10. #85
    Beast-stan of CBR Mungho's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Grayson View Post
    In the early days of Krakoa, it seemed like that was a possibility. It’s too far down the road for a reveal like that, though. It would completely undermine the last four years of stories.
    Yes, that is right it would undermine some stories, but is it so bad for that to be the case for just some of the characters? Beast, Moira, Nature Girl, etc. are radioactive now. I don't see how they can go about using them again in future stories without retconning or explaining away their behaviors.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kingdom X View Post
    One thing about the early Krakoa era is that it chose mystery and vaguely ominous vibes over character consistency. We didn’t get any information on the missing 8 months OR how the most well-known characters got on board with Krakoa, which HONESTLY would have been as easy as seeing the A-listers have a conversation about how they have some reservations, but Krakoa is the best option for their people after being turned on by humanity in Rosencanny.

    But INSTEAD we got no answers which led to the rampant speculation. “Are they all clones, and are the real X-Men being trapped in pods?”, “Did Xavier plant a psychic suggestion in everyone?” “Is the island pacifying everyone?” These are all valid questions and I HONESTLY think Hickman kept things vague to drum up intrigue and interest in the line.

    Problem is (and this could be because Hickman left), none of those theories ended up being true AND we didn’t get any insights into character motivations leading into Krakoa. So the books started slowly sanitizing the undesirable aspects without ever truly addressing them. It felt like they wanted to have their cake and eat it too
    Yeah, I they wanted to have their cake and eat it too(though I hate that phrase). Krakoa should be called 'the era of missed or ignored opportunities'. And I HATE having no answers over long periods of time in comic books.
    Not removing this signature until Beast is written as a good guy again.

  11. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ilargi View Post
    No. We hate It, thanks.lol
    Make Brevoort relaunch it with Kelly.

  12. #87
    Astonishing Member Kingdom X's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mungho View Post
    Yes, that is right it would undermine some stories, but is it so bad for that to be the case for just some of the characters? Beast, Moira, Nature Girl, etc. are radioactive now. I don't see how they can go about using them again in future stories without retconning or explaining away their behaviors.
    If you look at those yearly awards that Master of Sound graciously puts together there are just as many breakout stars that have come out of this era. It wouldn’t be fair for characters like Storm, Magneto, Synch, Destiny, Kwannon, Exodus, etc. to have their stories erased. When looking at the three characters you mentioned:

    1. I’m most confident in Beast having a come back. We’re getting a new editor and Hank one of the original X-Men (a group where all members have gone homicidal before). Whether it’s the Avengers backup returning or a dedicated redemption arc, I think we’ll ultimately see some return to form for a character. If the base of the character is heroic, there’s always a path back. Just ask Hal Jordan or Wally West.

    2. Moira is a bit tricky because she’s now taken on the role of main antagonist AND she was dead for a long time before this era. That being said, if a writer has the desire they can easily explain that the actions of robo Moira were not reflective of the character and bring back the human/ mutant version.

    3. For Nature Girl all you have to is double down on the fact that Curse’s ability is reality warping and then explain that the Nature Girl we knew was never in control. Now the likeliness of this happening is somewhat low because NG was frankly a wallpaper character that only really stood out in Strain’s Gen X run.

    So yeah doing that for three characters might take a little retconning explaining. That’s a lot better than saying the dozens of characters you’ve followed for the last 5 years were ALL under mind control so the hundreds of dollars you’ve spent on comics for half a decade were essentially wasted. Of course that last bit is a bit dramatic, but telling audiences that none of the characters they’ve followed for an entire era had any agency is a good way to get someone to never buy a comic again.

  13. #88
    Astonishing Member Ra-El's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kingdom X View Post
    If you look at those yearly awards that Master of Sound graciously puts together there are just as many breakout stars that have come out of this era. It wouldn’t be fair for characters like Storm, Magneto, Synch, Destiny, Kwannon, Exodus, etc. to have their stories erased. When looking at the three characters you mentioned:

    1. I’m most confident in Beast having a come back. We’re getting a new editor and Hank one of the original X-Men (a group where all members have gone homicidal before). Whether it’s the Avengers backup returning or a dedicated redemption arc, I think we’ll ultimately see some return to form for a character. If the base of the character is heroic, there’s always a path back. Just ask Hal Jordan or Wally West.

    2. Moira is a bit tricky because she’s now taken on the role of main antagonist AND she was dead for a long time before this era. That being said, if a writer has the desire they can easily explain that the actions of robo Moira were not reflective of the character and bring back the human/ mutant version.

    3. For Nature Girl all you have to is double down on the fact that Curse’s ability is reality warping and then explain that the Nature Girl we knew was never in control. Now the likeliness of this happening is somewhat low because NG was frankly a wallpaper character that only really stood out in Strain’s Gen X run.

    So yeah doing that for three characters might take a little retconning explaining. That’s a lot better than saying the dozens of characters you’ve followed for the last 5 years were ALL under mind control so the hundreds of dollars you’ve spent on comics for half a decade were essentially wasted. Of course that last bit is a bit dramatic, but telling audiences that none of the characters they’ve followed for an entire era had any agency is a good way to get someone to never buy a comic again.
    Honesttly, if they reveal that the Cyclops who got shot in the head in HoX/PoX is still alive and kill off the one I've read about during Krakoa era, I would be happy.

  14. #89
    Beast-stan of CBR Mungho's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kingdom X View Post
    If you look at those yearly awards that Master of Sound graciously puts together there are just as many breakout stars that have come out of this era. It wouldn’t be fair for characters like Storm, Magneto, Synch, Destiny, Kwannon, Exodus, etc. to have their stories erased. When looking at the three characters you mentioned:

    1. I’m most confident in Beast having a come back. We’re getting a new editor and Hank one of the original X-Men (a group where all members have gone homicidal before). Whether it’s the Avengers backup returning or a dedicated redemption arc, I think we’ll ultimately see some return to form for a character. If the base of the character is heroic, there’s always a path back. Just ask Hal Jordan or Wally West.

    2. Moira is a bit tricky because she’s now taken on the role of main antagonist AND she was dead for a long time before this era. That being said, if a writer has the desire they can easily explain that the actions of robo Moira were not reflective of the character and bring back the human/ mutant version.

    3. For Nature Girl all you have to is double down on the fact that Curse’s ability is reality warping and then explain that the Nature Girl we knew was never in control. Now the likeliness of this happening is somewhat low because NG was frankly a wallpaper character that only really stood out in Strain’s Gen X run.

    So yeah doing that for three characters might take a little retconning explaining. That’s a lot better than saying the dozens of characters you’ve followed for the last 5 years were ALL under mind control so the hundreds of dollars you’ve spent on comics for half a decade were essentially wasted. Of course that last bit is a bit dramatic, but telling audiences that none of the characters they’ve followed for an entire era had any agency is a good way to get someone to never buy a comic again.
    I meant just those 3 characters to be retconned into not being their real selves/possessed/controlled. I believe there has been a lot of positive things in the Krakoan era(like Storm's development as you said)that shouldn't be erased, even though I, personally, believe the bad has slightly outweighed the good.

    The problem with Beast is, I hear so many people(mostly on twitter or reddit) asking him to be made permanently a villain, as it would be totally awesome for one of the O5 to become a permanent villain of the X-Men. Other's are saying he's way more interesting as a villain(what?!). In the Jan. solicits, there's still no indication of any possession or redemption for Beast. I don't know anything about Brevoort, maybe he hates Beast and listens to the so-called fans and make this his new status quo.

    And remember, Hal Jordan had to be fixed with copious retcons to salvage him.
    Not removing this signature until Beast is written as a good guy again.

  15. #90
    Julian Keller Supremacy Rift's Avatar
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    I forgot the XM/F4. It was my personal Rogue & Gambit. It was so freaking bad and to this day, I'm ready to throw down and rant about the FF & Franklin's treatment, in this book and with Dan Slott's book. At the drop of a hat. Me and this mini, it's on sight. Zdarsky is a good writer, but he really pulled a Wells here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Til View Post
    Why no Fall of X?
    Well, not fully a no. I'm still reading Immortal since I like Xavier, but I'm not particularly invested in it. I also read the first FoX issue of X-Men for Kitty's breaking bad, and I skimmed an issue of X-Men to answer a question for Ulysian. Which I forgot to actually answer, and now it's been too long.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ulysian_Thracs View Post
    But isn't the sin qua non of the X-Men/Mutants the bigotry they face? For me, that and the school setting was what set them apart from the Avengers or JLA or any other super team. So, yes. I hope they go back to the 'old times'. But is there some happy medium, Rift? The only thing I miss as much as the X-Kids is the Academy setting. I want a school book, either with the X-Kids as teachers or students.
    The X-Men still faced figotry and hatred during the Krakoa era, even if it wasn't as prominent as people throwing pipe bombs at them when they walked down the street, or bad guys unleashing nanomachine viruses to wipe them out. It was baked into the very foundation of Krakoa and often appeared in books. And even at the height of Krakoa's power, the wellfare of humanity, despite the bigotry they face, was important. There was still the element of co-existence and trying to reach out to humanity.

    Like you said, you can have a happy medium - where the X-Men mingle with humanity and are more likely to face racism. But after everything that's happened, going back to the old way feels stupid and unsatisfying, because you know it won't work. "Shut up and take the abuse, and maybe if you're good, eventually your bullies will be nice to you. Maybe. But not really." We saw with Krakoa that mutants don't have to put up with this, and that they do better AND still care about humanity when they're not under constant threat.

    I agree with wanting a school book. I liked the school when it was used to tell the perspective of younger students. The school thing is so weird because like, they have a lot of unused teen characters, and Krakoa was canonically in need of an education system. You'd think they would establish a school, or take back the mansion from the Sidri or whoever has it now, and use that for a school book or even just background lore.

    The X-Mansion itself though, I'm not a fan. I'm not a fan of the X-Men standing around in this easily-accessed base that's constantly being attacked and gets blown up every other week. And I don't like what it represents, of going back to the old status quo. It feels like a regression.
    2023: The Year of Hellion

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