What are the good married Spider-Man stories?

[Mister Mets]

There seem to be two arguments about the quality of stories with a married Spider-Man.

One is that this was a status quo that worked for decades.

Another is that this was a status quo that came with a lot of dreck.

One way to determine the strength of the marriage as a status quo for stories would be to consider stories with a married Spider-Man that we can agree are good.

So for example, most Spider-Man fans can agree Kraven's Last Hunt is good. That's 6 issues.

We can generally agree the Renew Your Vows mini-series was at least okay. That brings it to at least 11 issues.

I think Amazing Spider-Man #365's Lizard story is solid, and I haven't heard much disagreement. That's 12 issues.

DeFalco/ Bennett/ Skroce's Electro saga (Amazing Spider-Man #422-423, 425) seems to have a decent reputation. That's 15 issues.

Millar/ Dodson's Marvel Knights Spider-Man run makes Best of lists. That's 27 issues.

Obviously there's much more to go.

How far can we go with issues that most Spider-Man fans can agree are worthwhile (if you reviewed it, it would be at least a B or *** comic.)

My take is this should be limited to stories with Peter Parker would be considered married to MJ, and the lead of the series in the main adventure. So it wouldn't include flashbacks, alternate universe comics with a single Peter, untold tales, stories with Ben Reilly as the lead, stories when MJ was believed dead or stories when Peter & MJ were separated (with the exception of their reconciliation in Amazing Spider-Man Volume 2 #46-50; that brings it to at least 32 issues.) Those fall in a different category of comics published while Peter & MJ were married, but they're not about a married Peter Parker.

These stories would not require Peter & MJ to be married, so it sidesteps the argument about whether it could've largely been told with a single Peter Parker, but these would all feature a Peter Parker who is married.

I'm wondering roughly how many issues we could settle on?

And we may also get leads on good comics.

[Tuck]

I don't think the marriage was written consistently well until the JMS era (including other books published at the same time). I think this is as least partly because, ironically, the plan was already to dissolve the marriage, so creators were able to write the books without that tension that was around throughout the 90s.

I realize you're talking about good stories overall with the marriage status quo, and not how well the marriage was written. But I do think it matters. One of the advantages Spider-Man has as a book that has historically been about Peter as much as, if not more than, Spider-Man is that even within dull stories, there is often something going on with the characters that is worth reading.

Anyway, you should put the To Have and to Hold annual story on your list.

I remember Peter David had some good stuff during that period. The one that comes to mind is a story about a girl from Midtown who thought Spider-Man was obsessed with her and got a restraining order against him.

[Garlador]

Personally speaking, it's hard to say "what are good married Spider-Man stories" because I guess the question is whether you're talking about good stories that involve Spider-Man, or good stories that are about their marriage.

In generally, my experiences with the marriage since the 80s was that, often, the marriage was the best part of otherwise divisive and even outright bad runs. Some of the very best marriage moments are in the Clone Saga. Maximum Carnage isn't something I particularly hold in high esteem, but it has some great moments. Identity Crisis is rarely on anyone's top list, yet it has great moments. I'm not saying Spectacular Spider-Man #245 is some Eisner-winning issue, but I could watch Mary Jane smacking the Chameleon around all day.

The truth of the matter is that, according to the statistics, Mary Jane is THE supporting character with the most appearances in Spider-Man books - more than Aunt May, J.Jonah Jameson, Norman and Harry Osborn, etc. So just like Peter himself, she has stories where her character and personality are written very well, and stories where they drop the ball. The JMS run is largely (and rightly) held in high esteem, but as I mention above there were hundreds of stand-out moments with the character over the decades that aren't necessarily part of bigger storylines. "I Remember Gwen" appeared in Amazing Spider-Man #365 and it's a great issue about Mary Jane's feelings about being Peter's "second" true love. "Parallel Lives" is often brought up as a watershed moment for the characters.

It just depends. Like, I REALLY enjoy "Renew Your Vows #19" where they try and enjoy themselves on a cruise vacation as a married couple and it's just... fun. No heavy stakes. Just the joys and struggles of trying to find time for your spouse in a crazy world.

[Batman Begins 2005]

JMS was the best writer of the marriage by far.
Kraven's Last Hunt.
All of Renew Your Vows especially the initial series by Dan Slott and #19 by Houser.

[Kaitou D. Kid]

Pretty much anything written by JMD between 1987-1983, anything written by Paul Jenkins and JMS (before the Editorial interferences in the mid 2000s), Marvel Knights, and To Have And To Hold. That's just off the top of my head.

[Vortex85]

I really like these stories from the early marriage to the clone saga off the top of my head that stood out for me. Of course I really enjoyed the post-clone saga period stories and JMS as well.

The Wedding
Kraven's Last Hunt
Moving Up
Venom (ASM 300)
Return of the Sin-Eater
Cult Of Love
Tombstone/Robbie arc
Dread (Kidnapped)
Evicted
Cosmic Spider-Man
Jason Jerome saga
The Child Within/Harry Osborn saga
Lifetheft
Peter Parker No More
The Predator and the Prey
Back From The Edge
Web Of Death
ASM 400 (The Gift)
Mark of Kaine
Time Bomb
Revelations

The main feature that stood out with the marriage I enjoyed was the ongoing subplots spread throughout many arcs of Spider-Man. For example, Peter and MJ are evicated from the Bedford Towers and have stress and drama unable to find good living due to her being blacklisted and not being able to work, forcing them to move in with Aunt May. Then we had drama with Aunt May's boyfriend there. Stuff like that was really fun.

Good stories and bad stories are not correlated to the marriage necessarily. Most of what makes a good story does not depend on the marriage. The marriage served as a long term b-plot that brought in sitcom and relationship drama in the book. That is the aspect that really sold me on Spider-Man comics.

Single Peter cycling through more shallow and short term relationships does nothing for me. I prefer a long term couple I can be invested in fully and truly dive deep into their lives long term. Frankly, the b-plots of single Peter Parker since OMD have been abysmal and infuriating in comparison.

EDIT: It just struck me that what I liked the most in Spider-Man being married is real life problems a couple may face in their relationship. The ups and downs and the good and bad things life throws at them, and how that can strain or bring them closer together. The fun part of them being married is it just strengthens the feeling that they are in it for the long haul, and hold on to faith and belief that they can endure together. It's a message of love and hope. That's really the central message of a married Spider-Man I find attractive.

[Kurus]

Personally, I don’t think of Spider-Man in terms of stories, I think in terms of runs. Spider-Man doesn’t lend itself to the king of singular, iconic stories like Batman or Superman. So much of Spider-Man’s appeal is due to his personal, civilian life, and that benefit a more from long running subplots across multiple storylines. Personally, I enjoyed most of what was published from 87 to 93, and then 2000 to 2007. The Jmd run in spectacular and the jms run were particular highlights for me.

[K7P5V]

The majority might not agree, but a personal favorite would be...

Spirits of the Earth

[Daibhidh]

It's a bit problematic because much of the marriage era is in the nineties and all Marvel properties had fallow patches in the nineties. The end of the Clone Saga has a bad reputation but it doesn't compare to what was going on in the Avengers and Iron Man and DeFalco's Fantastic Four is hardly considered a highlight either. The X-Men was if I remember correctly trying to be Claremont-but-Edgier which wasn't coming off well. So saying that Spider-man a bit lost its way during the nineties isn't much of a condemnation when a lot of Marvel properties were losing their way at the time.
A lot of the side issues weren't available on Marvel Unlimited the last time I checked, and that includes most of DeMatteis' work. (I'm not sure DeMatteis is consistently the best writer for Mary Jane, though: he does angst really well but a steady high level of angst doesn't showcase MJ's character.)

What other people have said, including Spirits of the Earth.
The Michelinie run until the parents show up is consistently solid.
I don't think any of Straczynki's superheroics are stellar. But the marriage carries even the bad issues. Controversial take: if you can get past the premises of Sins Past - namely a) Gwen had children with Norman Osborn; and b) MJ knew but didn't tell Peter - it's actually a strong story. It's just the premises that are awful. Second controversial take: if you can get past the premise of The Other, the character beats are all pretty strong.
Aguirre-Sacasa's Spider-man is underrated.
Peter David's Friendly Neighborhood Spider-man is fun as well though it's struggling against all the editorially mandated chopping and changing to the status quo.

[Mister Mets]

Adding a few more...

"Coming Together" culminated a story about Peter & MJ's reconciliation kicking off with Amazing Spider-Man Volume 2 #39. The silent issue and Shade story seem to generally be well-regarded.

Since I'm counting issues, it seems unfair to have some giant-sized comics counting as one issue. So I'll add some shorter stuff to even it out a bit.

The Peter David short story "Five Minutes"
“My Fair Spidey” from Marvel Valentines Day Special 1997
Tom Beland and Jim Calafiore's story from Spider-Man Unlimited #12 (Encouraged by MJ, Spider-Man & Marvel heroes help a grieving child.)
The Sinister 60th from Amazing Fantasy #1000

I came across a Top 100 list, so everything there seems valid.
https://retro-sanctuary.com/Top-100-...es-Page-1.html

Carnage (Amazing Spider-Man #361-363)
Powerless (Amazing Spider-Man #340-343)
Book of Ezekiel (Amazing Spider-Man #506-508)
Death of Vermin (Spectacular Spider-Man #194-196)
Unintended Consequences (Amazing Spider-Man #496-497)
Obituary for an Octopus (Spider-Man Unlimited #3)
Boneyard Hop (Amazing Spider-Man #346-347)
Return of the Sinister Six (Amazing Spider-Man #334-339)
I'm With Stupid (Spider-Man/ Human Torch #5)
Happy Birthday (Amazing Spider-Man #498-502, counting the epilogue)

I found the list while googling "Spider-Man Moving Up"

[Mister Mets]

To be clear, I'm looking for specific stories that we can agree are good. I'm not going to count entire runs, but you can make a case for each story within a larger run.

Someone mentioned Mark of Kaine. The first four issues could count, but I'll definitely veto the Spider-Man Unlimited Part 5, which was largely disconnected from the overall narrative, and is (at the very least) not universally acclaimed.
https://lifeofreillyarchives.blogspo...03/part-7.html

I think Sins Past is too controversial to count. Same with Peter Parker No More, Timebomb and Lifetheft.

I don't care for the wedding issue or Maximum Carnage, but they're listed as among the best Spider-Man comics ever often enough that I'll concede these have their passionate fans. I'm not the biggest fan of Moving Up, but it did kick off an annual drunk Spider-Man fans livetweeting event.

The stories are listed chronologically, followed by alternate reality.

Amazing Spider-Man #290-292, Annual #21
Kraven's Last Hunt
Venom (Amazing Spider-Man #300)
Return of the Sin-Eater (Peter Parker the Spectacular Spider-Man #134-136)
Moving Up (Web of Spider-Man #38)
Kidnapped (Amazing Spier-Man #307-309)
Evicted (Amazing Spider-Man #313)
Cult of Love (Web of Spider-Man #40-43)
The Cosmic Spider-Man (Spectacular Spider-Man #158-160, Web of Spider-Man #59-61, Amazing Spider-Man #326-329)
Return of the Sinister Six (Amazing Spider-Man #334-339)
Tombstone Arc (Peter Parker the Spectacular Spider-Man #137-150, Peter Parker the Spectacular Spider-Man Annual #8)
Powerless (Amazing Spider-Man #340-343)
Boneyard Hop (Amazing Spider-Man #346-347)
Spirits of the Earth
Carnage (Amazing Spider-Man #361-363)
Lizard (Amazing Spider-Man #365)
I Remember Gwen (Amazing Spider-Man #365)
The Child Within (Spectacular Spider-Man #178-184)
The Harry Osborn Saga (Spectacular Spider-Man #185-190, 200)
Funeral Arrangements (Spectacular Spider-Man #186-188)
Death of Vermin (Spectacular Spider-Man #194-196)
Maximum Carnage
Obituary for an Octopus (Spider-Man Unlimited #3)
The Predator and the Prey (Spectacular Spider-Man #215-216)
Back From the Edge (Amazing Spider-Man #395-396, Spectacular Spider-Man #217-218)
Web of Death (Amazing Spider-Man #397-398, Spectacular Spider-Man #219-220)
The Gift (Amazing Spider-Man #400)
Revelations
The Chameleon targets Peter (Spectacular Spider-Man #241-245)
Defalco's Electro saga (Amazing Spider-Man #422-423, 425)
Mark of Kaine Parts 1-4
Peter David's short story "Five Minutes"
"My Fair Spidey" from Marvel Valentine's Day Special 1997
"Doomed Affairs" and the lead-up (Amazing Spider-Man Volume 2 #39-50)
Unintended Consequences (Amazing Spider-Man #496-497)
Happy Birthday (Amazing Spider-Man #498-502, counting the epilogue)
Book of Ezekiel (Amazing Spider-Man #506-508)
Marvel Knights Spider-Man #1-12
I'm With Stupid (Spider-Man/ Human Torch #5)
Tom Beland/ Jim Calafiore's story in Spier-Man Unlimited #12
Vanna Smith (Friendly Neighborhood Spider-Man #5)
To Have and to Hold (Sensational Spider-Man Annual #1)


Renew Your Vows #1-5 (Mini-Series)
Renew Your Vows #19
The Sinister 60th

Issues Specifically Mentioned So Far: 167

Is there anything I left out that's been mentioned so far?

What would you like to add? And is there any comic that you don't think should be included?

[Jman27]

so far the clone saga during my reading is giving me some great moments. I just finished time bomb that was a good moment. Or during one of the backup stories to planet of the symbiote specials MJ and Peter had a good moment after they visit Aunt May grave

[TinkerSpider]

There seem to be two arguments about the quality of stories with a married Spider-Man.

One is that this was a status quo that worked for decades.

Another is that this was a status quo that came with a lot of dreck.

This is true of a single Peter, too.

One way to determine the strength of the marriage as a status quo for stories would be to consider stories with a married Spider-Man that we can agree are good.

No, that is not how one determines that, because the quality of writing varies during that time period. Marvel was going through a bankruptcy and there was a lot of turmoil at the top and in editorial, which affected the books during the marriage era as well.

One can do the same for a "single" Peter. Do you judge the quality of the title by the Wells and Denny O'Neill runs?

So for example, most Spider-Man fans can agree Kraven's Last Hunt is good. That's 6 issues.

We can generally agree the Renew Your Vows mini-series was at least okay. That brings it to at least 11 issues.

I think Amazing Spider-Man #365's Lizard story is solid, and I haven't heard much disagreement. That's 12 issues.

DeFalco/ Bennett/ Skroce's Electro saga (Amazing Spider-Man #422-423, 425) seems to have a decent reputation. That's 15 issues.

Millar/ Dodson's Marvel Knights Spider-Man run makes Best of lists. That's 27 issues.

Obviously there's much more to go.

How far can we go with issues that most Spider-Man fans can agree are worthwhile (if you reviewed it, it would be at least a B or *** comic.)

But who then decides if someone's B is worthy of being a B? What people like is subjective. One can look at the issues from objective standards of writing craft, but then people here would need to agree those objective standards exist.

My take is this should be limited to stories with Peter Parker would be considered married to MJ, and the lead of the series in the main adventure. So it wouldn't include flashbacks, alternate universe comics with a single Peter, untold tales, stories with Ben Reilly as the lead, stories when MJ was believed dead or stories when Peter & MJ were separated (with the exception of their reconciliation in Amazing Spider-Man Volume 2 #46-50; that brings it to at least 32 issues.) Those fall in a different category of comics published while Peter & MJ were married, but they're not about a married Peter Parker.

This is a false demarcation, because even when Peter and MJ were separated or MJ was thought dead, the marriage still affected Peter; one gets the impression this line was drawn so as to, say, eliminate Paul Jenkins's run (which makes many best lists) from consideration.

These stories would not require Peter & MJ to be married, so it sidesteps the argument about whether it could've largely been told with a single Peter Parker, but these would all feature a Peter Parker who is married.

And by this standard, then most Spider-Man issues where Peter is single should be thrown out, since most of those stories do not require him to be single.

Also; pointing out again that status quo does not determine story quality. That isn't how storytelling works. Past is not prologue; what matters is the writer who has their hands on the wheel at any given time.

[Mister Mets]

This is true of a single Peter, too.



No, that is not how one determines that, because the quality of writing varies during that time period. Marvel was going through a bankruptcy and there was a lot of turmoil at the top and in editorial, which affected the books during the marriage era as well.

One can do the same for a "single" Peter. Do you judge the quality of the title by the Wells and Denny O'Neill runs?



But who then decides if someone's B is worthy of being a B? What people like is subjective. One can look at the issues from objective standards of writing craft, but then people here would need to agree those objective standards exist.



This is a false demarcation, because even when Peter and MJ were separated or MJ was thought dead, the marriage still affected Peter; one gets the impression this line was drawn so as to, say, eliminate Paul Jenkins's run (which makes many best lists) from consideration.



And by this standard, then most Spider-Man issues where Peter is single should be thrown out, since most of those stories do not require him to be single.

Also; pointing out again that status quo does not determine story quality. That isn't how storytelling works. Past is not prologue; what matters is the writer who has their hands on the wheel at any given time.

I didn't say the stories require Peter & MJ to be married. Obviously anything that does would be valid.

But the basic measure here would be that the protagonist for most of the story should be a Peter Parker who would be considered to be married (not separated or a widower.)

And I have no problems with a "What are the good single Spider-Man stories?" discussion, although that will get messy because there is more content with a single Peter Parker.

I'd rate the current Wells run well above the average married Spider-Man comics, let alone the worst of it. I think the best-selling ongoing is doing something right.

[TinkerSpider]

I didn't say the stories require Peter & MJ to be married. Obviously anything that does would be valid.

But the basic measure here would be that the protagonist for most of the story should be a Peter Parker who would be considered to be married (not separated or a widower.)

And I have no problems with a "What are the good single Spider-Man stories?" discussion, although that will get messy because there is more content with a single Peter Parker.

But being separated or a widower requires the marriage. Also, as editorial is so fond of pointing out, it's a soap opera. Separations and characters believed to be dead are staples of soap opera long-running super couples.

Here are stories that aren't on the list, off the top of my head:


Soul of the Hunter, JMD

Hobgoblin Returns, Stern

All of Gerry Conway's runs on Web and Spectacular, not just arcs. In fact, I'd take all the books edited by Jim Salicrup, including the Michelinie/McFarlane issues (gotta include the Jonathon Caesar arc in ASM 308-309, I believe?). There was a noticable fall off in quality when Danny Fingeroth took over as editor.

Fabian Nicieza's Web of Spider-Man 38-39

Erik Larsen Spider-Man Vol 1. #15

All of JMD's run on Spec and Amazing, not just arcs

Identity Crisis - just a fun story with MJ making the four costumes for Peter

Peter David's backup in Web of Spider-Man annual 6 - features MJ, but the marriage is a key part of her dilemma.


If you are including Five Minnutes, which is a prose short story, then the following novels should be included:

Diane Duane's Venom Factor trilogy

Adam-Troy Castro's Sinister Six trilogy - which I believe is the first introduction of the idea Peter has a sister out there, and it's a great series of novels

Jim Butcher's The Darkest Hours - a far superior look at Morlun's family and came out first, I believe.