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Yeah, that is a good point. Did she rely on him to survive in that hellscape. I assume that answer would have to be yes, to some extent. Along with him being literally the only man there, you're right---the implications are pretty staggering. Part of me is glad I hadn't thought of that before, cuz those implications are horrible, nevermind the "chains" that the "children" were on her heart.
With that in mind, I also think you're right about it having to be shown that they were never really intimate and only together for emotional support being for the issue to be somewhat decently resolved.
Though, I honestly wouldn't mind if a future writer just had the "real" MJ step out of a portal at Pete's apartment, either. I'm fine with that just to get this and the Jackpot stuff all over with.
The expectations for heroes are quite unrealistic here.
Marvel superheroes were always supposed to have feet of clay. They're not supposed to be unrealistically perfect.
It seems to be hinted that Paul's incapable of physical intimacy, so that revelation is probably coming.
I agree MJ's situation was deeply unfair. But that's a different question from whether she did anything wrong, and is in need of being fixed.
At this point, there are many different ways to resolve it. Paul's a secret bad guy! Paul and MJ realize that their relationship is no longer working. Paul dies (which would be something for something for MJ to process going forward.)
Sincerely,
Thomas Mets
I said in my first point, if the roles were reversed and Peter was given this exact same story that Mary Jane went through, many would rightly view it as a terrible turn for his character. Marvel WOULDN'T do that to Peter... but they'll do it to Mary Jane. This is far less a Marvel vs DC comparison; we have enough history of Marvel writers and editors doing their best to make Mary Jane unlikable and toxic over the years because of their dislike for the character. The same people in charge now are the same people at the time of the "let's rape and murder her" jokes that flew freely across the offices and interviews.
But even if we were to "ground it" in a more realistic situation (as if being trapped with a guy who helped commit genocide is "realistic", but I digress), the statutes of limitations for a legal union to be declared legally over is SEVEN years, and we see Mary Jane giving up on Peter after year ONE per ASM #25.
To push this EVEN FURTHER... my great grandmother lost her husband overseas, no body found. She never remarried in her entire life. "There's always a chance, however slim, that he could walk through that door and I'll be here waiting for him. And if he's truly gone, then I'll reunite with him in heaven. But he was my one and only."
Let's not act like this kind of "one true love" idea is only found in fairy tales.
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Paul being a bad guy or Paul being unable of being physically intimate doesn't really get at the root of the problem, which is MJ's drifting away from Peter for the reasons the story sort of says but doesn't fully say (which is why we have never seen Paul and MJ kiss). The problem is how deeply problematic the story actually is when we sit down and think about it. Marvel Editorial's insistence that this story isn't deeply problematic isn't helping matters. Comparisons to Avengers #200 have been made, and Marvel has done nothing to assuage those concerns. They're still playing this all completely straight.
At this point I can't explain why they are continuing with this. They claim it's in the name of drama, but if that were the case, they have handled the drama terribly. Nobody should want comparisons to Avengers #200. That's the kind of thing that people never live down.
As not a fan at all of Ben...even I think they did him wrong. De-Chasm him and de-power Janice and move them off somewhere to have a happy life together.
As for MJ...just get rid of the bracelet nonsense and get her and Peter back together permanently. I got more detail on how that should go...but I bet we all got our dream Pete/MJ life plan.
All I wanted was to be unconditionally loved while never having to work on my flaws. Is that so much to ask?
They also outright fridged Kamala. In 2023. They took away all of Kamala's and MJ's agency, they made them both run away, they made Kamala shape shift into a white woman - something Kamala swore she would never do as she realized when she did that she was giving into internalized racism - and then they had the bad guy stab Kamala in the back while she just stood there and didn't even try to fight, just so they could pulls a SIKE! on the audience by making them think it was MJ who was stabbed - and all under the marketing message of "It's the 50th anniversary of Gwen Stacy's murder! Which character *cough*MJ*cough* will we kill to celebrate this milestone event in Peter Parker's life? Tune in to see which character gets their neck figuatively snapped this time! Whee!"
So expecting there to be understanding of the very problematic and incredibly squicky implications of MJ being trapped in a hellworld with only Paul to rely on and literally chained with kids... I'm not holding my breath. Dead Language makes Avengers 200 and Green Lantern 48 look fairly benign in comparison.
I agree, I can't explain why they are continuing with this. Not only that, but they doubled down by making Paul a liar and then they revealed he was a genocide enabler - but MJ is perfectly fine with that - my mind literally cannot comprehend the story choices they made.
I will point out, however, that Peter has been written as horribly as MJ and no one seems to be as up in arms over it. They took away any and all empathy from BOTH characters. MJ should have empathy for what Peter is going through - and if anything makes me dislike this run, it's that this run refuses to treat MJ like a human character with human emotions - but Peter should also have empathy for MJ. Yet he treats her like she's a toy that was snatched out of his stroller and he shows zero awareness for what she's been through, either.
Can Ben and MJ be "saved?" Yes. Of course. By the next writer ignoring this run and sweeping everything into the garbage where it belongs. It's not the best story solution, but this run so far has refused to play fair by the rules of storytelling, so why treat it like it should matter? Just toss it out, do another time jump, and start fresh.
Last edited by TinkerSpider; 10-29-2023 at 05:26 PM.
“I always figured if I were a superhero, there’s no way on God's earth that I'm gonna pal around with some teenager."
— Stan Lee
It's not whether she did anything wrong. It's whether she moved on from Peter. If she leaves Paul to go back to Peter it makes her look like she doesn't know her own mind. If Paul dies or leaves her it makes it look like Paul is the love of her life and Peter is second best (Peter can say that if Gwen came back to life he would still choose MJ because he'd never seriously dated MJ when he was dating Gwen; MJ would not be able to say the same about Peter and Paul).
MJ is not an object for Peter to take.
The other problem is that having had children changes someone. They can't go back to a relationship with two people looking forward to making lives and possibly a family together as if nothing has changed when one of them has had a family and the other one hasn't. The relationship will inevitably be coloured by being at different life stages.
You can't have a civilian character who regularly harks back to the time when they had powers. It wouldn't work. They attitude to their lost powers inevitably colours their attitude to superheroes.The oddest change is her stint as a superhero, though it could be something that gives her insights later, even if it doesn't last (and it probably shouldn't last).
Last edited by Daibhidh; 10-29-2023 at 05:47 PM.
Petrus Maria Johannaque sunt nubendi
The problem is the magically-created children were called "chains" around MJ's heart.
Once you introduce THAT concept, you are playing a dangerous game. If Marvel doesn't want comparisons to Avengers #200, they have done a terrible job fighting those charges.
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Pair up MJ and Ben. Have them move to the moon. It worked for Quicksilver and Crystal in the 1970’s, so…
Last edited by ARkadelphia; 10-30-2023 at 08:48 PM.
“Generally, one knows me before hating me” -Quicksilver
Ben can be saved but I am more inclined to believe that Janine shouldn’t be. The tragedy of Ben being back to himself and Janine suffering demonic corruption because of what she did while Ben was sick is more potent than whatever Wells is trying to do. You also have a recurring foe for Ben, maybe even nemesis material. Or grey, anti-hero. The big thing is that what happens has consequences that are not easily dealt with.
MJ is broken. Wells didn’t bend her, he broke her. I don’t think Marvel sees it this way and therefor their fix will not be enough. Hopefully someone in the future will try to address how fundamentally deep the changes go and try to repair her. Sadly the best solution is probably just to retcon it away. I hate retcons like this but honestly I can’t think of another solution. This run has forever altered the dynamic between Peter and MJ in a way that only OMD does. While OMD erased it from their memories it still hangs over them like a shadow.
Stories takes on a life on their own and sometimes you can’t rein them in. Marvel has it fair share of examples, both good and bad. The comparisons to Marcus and Carol are apt. Hank hitting Janet is another. It forever changed the dynamic between them. No amount of rationalization or soft retcons work. Not to say that I think that these stories are the same or equal. Just that they each found a way to alter the dynamic in a way that’s not so easy to reset without a big fat magical reset.
MJ moved on from Peter. She got children. A new love and time. It broke the illusion. Her behavior through it all did the most damage. It poisoned the well.
Last edited by Malachi; 10-30-2023 at 02:04 AM.
I think it's easier to ignore it when it didn't happen in the characters' main book, and took place in an alternate reality that never affected the status quo in the characters' main book. I suppose they've ignored Mayday, mostly, but I'm not sure that makes for good storytelling. (The character beat in Spider-Girls where MC2 Mayday identifies herself to RYV Mary Jane is definitely good storytelling.)
Petrus Maria Johannaque sunt nubendi
They're totally gonna ignore the problems and not address them. Wells and Lowe are trying so hard to (and failing to) turn this around, telling us (the readers) that we're "not reading what they wrote the right way" or something like that. That what's happening with MJ is ok, one of life's challenges and telling that it resembles the novel "Dr. Zhivago", despite that there is no logic to her character here what-so-ever. That our feelings for Peter and Mary Jane is "strongly coloring our read on Paul", despite how we clearly see how he looks, acts and interracts with the characters. That they don't see anything wrong with the book this run and the decisions in it. How Lowe always replies with "Sorry you don't like the book. Have a nice day!" or something like that on Twitter (or "X" or whatever).
Here's how I think things this will go:
- they'll use Slott's "put the toys back in the box" strategy at the end if the run, getting Peter and Mary Jane back together the same way they seperated them (without logic), like nothing happened.
This option is unsatisfying to us the fans, but I heard rumors that this is how it will go.
- they leave their mess for the next writer to fix (if the Editorial allows it).
Which means not only we have to wait for the current nightmare to end, but also wait if they'll fix this or we'll get another BND.
So to summarize, Wells and Lowe don't seem to care what they do with the characters, they ignore the fans's negative responce and try to make them look ungrateful.