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  1. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Digifiend View Post
    Janine's powers may be demonic in origin having been granted by the Goblin Queen, but she's not actually corrupted. She expressed remorse and tried to fix things after accidentally creating a werewolf while wearing a werewolf mask, and in her latest one-shot, she actually does heroic stuff wearing Captain America and Hulk masks. She's on the road to a heel-face turn. If Ben can be fixed, then Scarlet Spider and Hallows Eve can be a heroic battle couple.
    Or, if you want Janine non-powers (I actually like her this way, but some might not), just have the corruption leave her and possess someone else... maybe a female crook or something.

  2. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Sneezing_Stormtrooper View Post
    The problem with MJ for me has less to do with whether MJ would get back together with Peter and more to do with why Peter would get back together with someone who treated him this way. IMO he would look pretty bad if he welcomed her back with open arms after being left like that.

    Just retcon Ben into Spidercide pretending to be Ben. Even if this means the real Ben is still dead it would be an improvement.
    Honest: Peter treated MJ just as poorly. He stalked her for months after she said to stop. He burst into her apartment without an invitation. He didn't ask why she couldn't have coffee after the Moira incident, he just badgered her about Paul.

    He has shown ZERO empathy or sympathy for what happened to her; he has centered his own emotions without once showing an ounce of even curiousity about what MJ must have been through (his only reaction when he heard her story was to remind her they were about to move in together; note how he doesn't say anything about how hard the those four years much have been for her or to thankful she was still alive after being chased by Mayan monsters that long, etc, etc, etc).

    BOTH characters have been written excoriatingly terrible, without anything resembling a relatable human emotion. And I am so incredibly tired of everyone pointing to the MJ character assassination - and I agee, this was an outright targeted assassination meant to break her character - but they give Peter a pass for behaving just as badly toward her.
    “I always figured if I were a superhero, there’s no way on God's earth that I'm gonna pal around with some teenager."

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  3. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by TinkerSpider View Post
    Honest: Peter treated MJ just as poorly. He stalked her for months after she said to stop. He burst into her apartment without an invitation. He didn't ask why she couldn't have coffee after the Moira incident, he just badgered her about Paul.

    He has shown ZERO empathy or sympathy for what happened to her; he has centered his own emotions without once showing an ounce of even curiousity about what MJ must have been through (his only reaction when he heard her story was to remind her they were about to move in together; note how he doesn't say anything about how hard the those four years much have been for her or to thankful she was still alive after being chased by Mayan monsters that long, etc, etc, etc).

    BOTH characters have been written excoriatingly terrible, without anything resembling a relatable human emotion. And I am so incredibly tired of everyone pointing to the MJ character assassination - and I agee, this was an outright targeted assassination meant to break her character - but they give Peter a pass for behaving just as badly toward her.
    I think the problem here is that being a stalker for several months is such an awful development for Peter, that the book really pulled its punches with examining that aspect. The stalking is like 95% just implied to have happened in the 6 month timeskip. If you started reading at like ASM#3 or 4, you quite honestly would have no idea that any of that even happened. And again I assume this is because people looked at Peter Parker and said, we don't want the audience to actively hate him for months on end for creepy **** we had him do in service of the status quo. So the tone of the book ends up being "MJ is a prude" even though Peter's actions are often more condemnable. Cause this book hates women.

  4. #49
    Incredible Member JustLuke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Sneezing_Stormtrooper View Post
    The problem with MJ for me has less to do with whether MJ would get back together with Peter and more to do with why Peter would get back together with someone who treated him this way. IMO he would look pretty bad if he welcomed her back with open arms after being left like that.

    Just retcon Ben into Spidercide pretending to be Ben. Even if this means the real Ben is still dead it would be an improvement.
    I think that ship has officially sailed after Spine-Tingling Spider-Man. I would like to see 'Cide and Kaine work together to Un-Chasm Ben as many here have pitched though

  5. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by JustLuke View Post
    I think that ship has officially sailed after Spine-Tingling Spider-Man. I would like to see 'Cide and Kaine work together to Un-Chasm Ben as many here have pitched though
    Same here. 'Cide could just do a partial biological merger with The Chasm Formerly Known as Ben Reilly, which would (re)establish a neural connection long enough for 'Cide to restore Ben's foundational memories to him (and perhaps absorb the psycho-reactive quantum-shifting polymeric goo he was soaked in to turn him into Chasm in the first place).

    Quote Originally Posted by Moxxi517 View Post
    I think the problem here is that being a stalker for several months is such an awful development for Peter, that the book really pulled its punches with examining that aspect. The stalking is like 95% just implied to have happened in the 6 month timeskip. If you started reading at like ASM#3 or 4, you quite honestly would have no idea that any of that even happened. And again I assume this is because people looked at Peter Parker and said, we don't want the audience to actively hate him for months on end for creepy **** we had him do in service of the status quo. So the tone of the book ends up being "MJ is a prude" even though Peter's actions are often more condemnable. Cause this book hates women.
    Not sure the book itself hates women, but I can agree that the writing and plotting and characterization of the most important/plot-relevant female characters in it speaks to some deeply troubling implications about how the people involved in all that might view women. Sadly, it's nothing new; going back to the comparisons to Avengers #200, Marvel at the time thought the best thing to do with an empowered female protagonist like Carol Danvers (then Ms. Marvel) was to have her brainwashed (and from there, basically raped) by a man using her body to tether himself to her world and be reborn, and then send her off with him like it was a happy ending for her. No wonder Chris Claremont, through Carol herself, ripped into Marvel (as represented by the Avengers who waved her off in Avengers 200) for that.

    Sticking to Mary Jane herself, we've even had respected creators mention that the main (or a major) reason they didn't support Peter's marriage to her was that they didn't see her as the kind of woman an upstanding gentleman like Peter should marry, with one saying more specifically that she might be good for something like a tumble in the proverbial hay, but not for a serious (perhaps even permanent) commitment like marriage. Essentially, it boils down to a serious case of the "Madonna-whore complex," insofar as "there are 'good women' you marry, and 'bad women' you don't," with the "bad women" almost always being defined (or perceived) as outspoken and unabashed, even blatantly so, in their physical attractiveness and sexual appeal, whereas the "good women" are supposed to be more modest and humble and not "invite" sexual attention or sexualized gazes. Of course, given how Marvel as a company through its professional artists is more than willing to trade on Mary Jane's visual appeal to sell its books . . . there's more than a little hypocrisy baked into that cake.
    The spider is always on the hunt.

  6. #51
    Extraordinary Member Prime's Avatar
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    How much you wanna bet they will do it in a complicated convoluted manner ?

  7. #52
    Formerly Assassin Spider Huntsman Spider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prime View Post
    How much you wanna bet they will do it in a complicated convoluted manner ?
    That's how they do everything, alas.
    The spider is always on the hunt.

  8. #53
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    I'm no philosopher, but the universe must always find "balance". For each ligth, there is a darkness. For each yin, must be a yang.

    I can't say about Mary Jane, but I believe the best way to "fix" Ben would be if Norman Osborn becomes the Green Goblin. Then, with his evil restored, Ben's goodness might be restored as well. At least, this is what I think.

  9. #54
    Mighty Member Garlador's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huntsman Spider View Post
    That's how they do everything, alas.
    The book with robot parents, a "really good actress" deceiving Peter by pretending to be Aunt May and dying in her place, the initial "cheated on Peter with his best friend's father and had his twins", the later "actually, Norman banged Mysterio in a wig", the entire "I'm a clone? No you're a clone! Wait, I'm the clone! No, you're the clone!" years, the story where Peter gets turned into a spider that dies and gives birth to himself, the whole "sell my marriage to the devil to retcon 20 years of continuity", the absolute insanity of "let's trap Mary Jane in another dimension with the son of a crazy guy who mistakenly helped genocide all of humanity for years until the Stockholm Syndrome and fake magic kids makes her a happy domesticated woman without Peter, also she has gambling powers" storyline we're still in, the Spider-Buggy...

    ... Yeah, they'll fix it one day, and it'll be some of the most insane writing this side of "Trouble".
    Join the "Spider-Fam" Community! - Celebrating Love and Advocating for Our Hero to Beat the Devil! - https://discord.gg/VQ2mHzBBFu

  10. #55
    Astonishing Member ARkadelphia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Malachi View Post
    Ben can be saved but I am more inclined to believe that Janine shouldn’t be. The tragedy of Ben being back to himself and Janine suffering demonic corruption because of what she did while Ben was sick is more potent than whatever Wells is trying to do. You also have a recurring foe for Ben, maybe even nemesis material. Or grey, anti-hero. The big thing is that what happens has consequences that are not easily dealt with.

    MJ is broken. Wells didn’t bend her, he broke her. I don’t think Marvel sees it this way and therefor their fix will not be enough. Hopefully someone in the future will try to address how fundamentally deep the changes go and try to repair her. Sadly the best solution is probably just to retcon it away. I hate retcons like this but honestly I can’t think of another solution. This run has forever altered the dynamic between Peter and MJ in a way that only OMD does. While OMD erased it from their memories it still hangs over them like a shadow.

    Stories takes on a life on their own and sometimes you can’t rein them in. Marvel has it fair share of examples, both good and bad. The comparisons to Marcus and Carol are apt. Hank hitting Janet is another. It forever changed the dynamic between them. No amount of rationalization or soft retcons work. Not to say that I think that these stories are the same or equal. Just that they each found a way to alter the dynamic in a way that’s not so easy to reset without a big fat magical reset.

    MJ moved on from Peter. She got children. A new love and time. It broke the illusion. Her behavior through it all did the most damage. It poisoned the well.
    I gotta disagree. Hallow’s Eve is literally just about the only interesting thing going on in Spider-Land right now. I’d like to see the path she’s on continue. YMMV.
    “The Avengers have been the one point of stability in my entire life. And if The Avengers call… then The Scarlet Witch will always answer.”

  11. #56
    Astonishing Member ARkadelphia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Digifiend View Post
    Janine's powers may be demonic in origin having been granted by the Goblin Queen, but she's not actually corrupted. She expressed remorse and tried to fix things after accidentally creating a werewolf while wearing a werewolf mask, and in her latest one-shot, she actually does heroic stuff wearing Captain America and Hulk masks. She's on the road to a heel-face turn. If Ben can be fixed, then Scarlet Spider and Hallows Eve can be a heroic battle couple.
    This right here
    “The Avengers have been the one point of stability in my entire life. And if The Avengers call… then The Scarlet Witch will always answer.”

  12. #57
    Astonishing Member ARkadelphia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vegeta View Post
    MJ and Ben are both easy fixes compared to other characters "done dirty" by Marvel. (Your Scarlet Witches, Hank Pyms, Cyclopses and whatnots) MJ in particular is simply just a reconciliation and reaffirmation of her love for Peter Parker. People just try to blow it out of proportion like it's "RUINED FOREVER."
    Agreed. Fans just have to be willing to take their halo canon off her head and all will be fine
    “The Avengers have been the one point of stability in my entire life. And if The Avengers call… then The Scarlet Witch will always answer.”

  13. #58
    Astonishing Member ARkadelphia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by t-spider View Post
    Or, if you want Janine non-powers (I actually like her this way, but some might not), just have the corruption leave her and possess someone else... maybe a female crook or something.
    Powered Janine is much more interesting than powered MJ
    “The Avengers have been the one point of stability in my entire life. And if The Avengers call… then The Scarlet Witch will always answer.”

  14. #59
    Incredible Member Daibhidh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ARkadelphia View Post
    Powered Janine is much more interesting than powered MJ
    QFT. What's more, if they'd even half thought about it they'd have realised that mask powers fit MJ's backstory and career so much better than gambling powers. MJ's entire life is about being someone else.
    Petrus Maria Johannaque sunt nubendi

  15. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prime View Post
    How much you wanna bet they will do it in a complicated convoluted manner ?
    It depends on who's doing it. If it's Wells and Lowe, they'll just "sweep it under the rug" like nothing happened, without making any attempts to put actual thoughts into it (the same way they seperated them). If it's someone else, like the next writer, then yeah - I can see that happening (if the Editorial doesn't butt-in, like they always do).

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