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  1. #76
    Mighty Member Garlador's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moxxi517 View Post
    Well I mean it sounds pretty similar to the rational editorial gave for why they put Kamala into ASM. And Bendis at least had the decency to have her be vaguely around and not to fridge her, you know.
    Bendis really likes MJ and her relationship with Peter, and loved writing her teenage self in Ultimate for starters. I’m sure that helps.
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  2. #77
    Incredible Member Daibhidh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jman27 View Post
    i don't remember anything memorable that Bendis did with her while she was on the Iron Man book.
    She saved Tony Stark and Victor von Doom from Madame Masque by whacking Madame Masque over the back of the head. Otherwise, she did various useful things, but as you say she didn't do much memorable. I don't know whether Bendis had any plans for her in the long run that got derailed by Civil War II, or whether he just decided to set things up so he could use her if he had an idea for her.
    Petrus Maria Johannaque sunt nubendi

  3. #78
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daibhidh View Post
    She saved Tony Stark and Victor von Doom from Madame Masque by whacking Madame Masque over the back of the head. Otherwise, she did various useful things, but as you say she didn't do much memorable. I don't know whether Bendis had any plans for her in the long run that got derailed by Civil War II, or whether he just decided to set things up so he could use her if he had an idea for her.
    I remember her most for becoming a Riri Williams cheerleader, but that was like half the book .

  4. #79
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    Yeah, easily ! remember when Wanda destroyed all the mutants ? Remember when Spider-man slapped Mary Jane ? Do you remember Civil war, when Tony Stark and Reed cloned Thor, killed heroes and locked-up super heroes without trials ? Do you remember that the Illuminati killed universes ? Comics books are soap opera, everything can be forgotten or retconned (except Hank Pym, for whatever reasons)
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  5. #80
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    You can retcon a story but the impacts of the original story sometimes just seem to stick.

    I think Sins Past could have haunted Gwen Stacy forever if the retcon wasn't so ridiculous that whenever you see any discourse around Sins past you immediately get the Mysterio in a wig response.

  6. #81
    Really Feeling It! Kevinroc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lifetap View Post
    You can retcon a story but the impacts of the original story sometimes just seem to stick.

    I think Sins Past could have haunted Gwen Stacy forever if the retcon wasn't so ridiculous that whenever you see any discourse around Sins past you immediately get the Mysterio in a wig response.
    I wonder how long people will continue to make Paul jokes even after the character finally disappears into comic book limbo?

  7. #82
    Incredible Member Daibhidh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lordozone View Post
    Yeah, easily ! remember when Wanda destroyed all the mutants ? Remember when Spider-man slapped Mary Jane ? Do you remember Civil war, when Tony Stark and Reed cloned Thor, killed heroes and locked-up super heroes without trials ? Do you remember that the Illuminati killed universes ? Comics books are soap opera, everything can be forgotten or retconned (except Hank Pym, for whatever reasons)
    Wanda was still living No More Mutants down in the first Hellfire Gala issue, just a couple of years ago. Namor is the only one of the Illuminati who was actually complicit in killing universes.
    The thing about Hank Pym is that has to do with his romantic relationships: it was meant to be a relationship breaker at the time. Doing romantic relationships that the history of the relationship be respected if it isn't to fall flat. So getting him back together with Janet would require that they deal with that, and that would be problematic in what it said about real life abuse. Peter slapping Mary Jane could be forgiven since Peter wasn't meant to realise that it was MJ until he'd done it and as I understand it it was meant to be a bringing him back to his senses moment. That said, it got brought up early on in Wells' run as I understand it. (There was a whiff of blaming the victim about it: it has MJ talking like an abuse victim who doesn't realise she was abused, so it feels like it's implying that Peter/MJ was toxic. But apparently Peter/Felicia was fine, so that implies that the problem was MJ. All rather unpleasant.)
    Point being: if you're trying to write romantic relationships with emotional weight you have to respect the characters' history in a way that team comradery doesn't require.
    Petrus Maria Johannaque sunt nubendi

  8. #83
    Mighty Member Garlador's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lordozone View Post
    Yeah, easily ! remember when Wanda destroyed all the mutants ? Remember when Spider-man slapped Mary Jane ? Do you remember Civil war, when Tony Stark and Reed cloned Thor, killed heroes and locked-up super heroes without trials ? Do you remember that the Illuminati killed universes ? Comics books are soap opera, everything can be forgotten or retconned (except Hank Pym, for whatever reasons)
    It depends, but mostly this. If Hal Jordan and Wally West came come back from stories that straight-faced turned them into mass murderers, anything is possible. Hell, the only reason we even have the CURRENT status quo is because Marvel decided that Peter and MJ making a supernatural satanic bargain with a reality-warping devil to undo decades of comics was the “best” idea to hammer a square peg into a round hole. Whatever status quo you want, a terrible, lazy, or insane magic retcon can make it happen.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevinroc View Post
    I wonder how long people will continue to make Paul jokes even after the character finally disappears into comic book limbo?
    I dunno. But us Teen Titan fans still tap-dance on Terry Long’s grave.
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  9. #84

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    Quote Originally Posted by TinkerSpider View Post
    Honest: Peter treated MJ just as poorly. He stalked her for months after she said to stop. He burst into her apartment without an invitation. He didn't ask why she couldn't have coffee after the Moira incident, he just badgered her about Paul.

    He has shown ZERO empathy or sympathy for what happened to her; he has centered his own emotions without once showing an ounce of even curiousity about what MJ must have been through (his only reaction when he heard her story was to remind her they were about to move in together; note how he doesn't say anything about how hard the those four years much have been for her or to thankful she was still alive after being chased by Mayan monsters that long, etc, etc, etc).

    BOTH characters have been written excoriatingly terrible, without anything resembling a relatable human emotion. And I am so incredibly tired of everyone pointing to the MJ character assassination - and I agee, this was an outright targeted assassination meant to break her character - but they give Peter a pass for behaving just as badly toward her.
    Oh yeah, this version of Peter is awful as well. The reason I dropped the book a year ago is primarily because I really dislike what both of these characters have become. Peter has been creepy and pathetic.

    When you look at the play by play of events and take awful characterization out of it the fact remains that MJ left him for another guy at a point where their relationship was getting pretty serious. I would like to see Peter portrayed as someone with higher self esteme than someone who would take back a person who broke up with them in that way.

    I'm a Peter/MJ fan and a marriage fan but I don't think I can accept this being swept under the rug. Short of having her actually cheat on him I really don't think they could have done a better job of breaking them.


    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Peter has forgiven Felicia for worse.
    In terms of their dating life? Like what?

  10. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Sneezing_Stormtrooper View Post
    Oh yeah, this version of Peter is awful as well. The reason I dropped the book a year ago is primarily because I really dislike what both of these characters have become. Peter has been creepy and pathetic.

    When you look at the play by play of events and take awful characterization out of it the fact remains that MJ left him for another guy at a point where their relationship was getting pretty serious. I would like to see Peter portrayed as someone with higher self esteme than someone who would take back a person who broke up with them in that way.
    She was trapped in a hell dimension for four years and cursed with chains in the form of children. The situation would have been extremely traumatizing and any relationships formed would be informed by that extreme trauma and stress. She would most likely have PTS, if this run had actual characters and not misshapen lumps of clay. She didn’t meet Paul in a coffee shop and decide to leave Peter for him after an afternoon of lattes and cronuts.

    This is what I mean. The run refuses to grant MJ any empathy or even sympathy, in part because the run presents her as a regressive sexist mindless housewife stereotype who is thrilled to be a domestic servant for the only other adult in the hell world and two fake kids. The run refuses to let us into her head - even in the issue that was nominally about her ordeal - and instead focus on a selfish, empathy-less Peter who treats MJ like a toy snatched from his crib.

    And why would MJ want to be with someone who treats her like she’s his emotional pacifier, just there to make him feel good?! MJ gets a say in her own life, after all.

    I'm a Peter/MJ fan and a marriage fan but I don't think I can accept this being swept under the rug. Short of having her actually cheat on him I really don't think they could have done a better job of breaking them.
    I don’t blame you for feeling that way because that’s what the pages are telling you to feel. However, just be aware you are being manipulated by a “story” that isn’t playing fair, that refuses to treat the characters like they are human beings, that lacks all sorts of internal logic and consistency. I’m happy to treat the “story” as nonsense that shouldn’t be heeded because it is, indeed, nonsense. And poorly crafted nonsense at that.

    In terms of their dating life? Like what?
    Felicia actually cheating on him with the Foreigner, for one.
    Last edited by TinkerSpider; 11-01-2023 at 07:13 AM.
    “I always figured if I were a superhero, there’s no way on God's earth that I'm gonna pal around with some teenager."

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  11. #86
    Incredible Member Aura Blaize's Avatar
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    Came in late to this and this might be said already but, yeah. Both can be fix.

    Ben is easy. He's been here before with the clone conspiracy thing and he came back. This time it's literally memory loss. Reverse that, have him take some time to reflect, maybe so a mini series. Done.

    MJ is a bit more difficult, but only because everyone's solution is to put them back together. You don't need to put them immediately back together, but you do need to get rid of Paul. After that, make it a gradual thing if you want them together. Don't rush things. That's one of the reasons Peter and Felicia didn't really work.

    Also, actually commit to it long term. Don't break them up because reasons. Because at this point, people are sick and tired of being jerked around.

  12. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tuck View Post
    Peter wiped her memory, and then chose not to restore them for an extended period of time. Felicia's heel turn is at least partly on him (and Silver-Age level goofy motivation).
    Before that, you had stuff like her assaulting MJ and conspiring with the Foreigner to frame Peter for murder. Even her post BND actions can only be blamed so much on the memory loss.

  13. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Sneezing_Stormtrooper View Post
    Oh yeah, this version of Peter is awful as well. The reason I dropped the book a year ago is primarily because I really dislike what both of these characters have become. Peter has been creepy and pathetic.

    When you look at the play by play of events and take awful characterization out of it the fact remains that MJ left him for another guy at a point where their relationship was getting pretty serious. I would like to see Peter portrayed as someone with higher self esteme than someone who would take back a person who broke up with them in that way.

    I'm a Peter/MJ fan and a marriage fan but I don't think I can accept this being swept under the rug. Short of having her actually cheat on him I really don't think they could have done a better job of breaking them.




    In terms of their dating life? Like what?
    Lying to him about where she got her powers or about going straight.

  14. #89
    Astonishing Member Tuck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Before that, you had stuff like her assaulting MJ and conspiring with the Foreigner to frame Peter for murder. Even her post BND actions can only be blamed so much on the memory loss.
    He wiped her memory. That's worse than anything she did. It's just not treated that way because memory wipes are a comic book trope.

  15. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tuck View Post
    He wiped her memory. That's worse than anything she did. It's just not treated that way because memory wipes are a comic book trope.
    Peter didn’t wipe her memory? I mean, if we’re going to call it that, then never re-telling May is also wiping her memory but no one seems to care about that.

    He chose to keep his secret identity secret. You can argue whether that was in character or not, and I don’t think it is, but this is the BND era and beyond where Felicia was doing things like stealing his blood without asking so it’s kinda understandable.

    I love how Spencer made this plot beat so much more relevant and emotional with Peter finally telling her, and with the missing emotional memory perhaps being why Fel was acting that way.
    Last edited by TinkerSpider; 11-01-2023 at 08:03 AM.
    “I always figured if I were a superhero, there’s no way on God's earth that I'm gonna pal around with some teenager."

    — Stan Lee

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