Prestige directors views on the MCU and comic book movies

[inisideguy]

emotionally conflicted and melodramatic? but why make up a new phrase for that?

then again, I didn't really understand "mansplaining" either ... my thought was why call it MANSPLAINING when we already have words like "condescension" and "patronizing"?

as for CBMs and gangster films... it's not like trends are going to stop happening... if something becomes a huge hit other people try to copy it. it's human nature. sometimes you'll find that somebody else has the same idea that you had and gets there first. not much to be done about that. it's like asking people to stop making new slang words.

as for the OP: the marketplace is big enough for everybody. just because fewer people by artichokes and asparagus than crackers or candy doesn't mean that people can't enjoy both.

I do admit that the MCU films feel a bit more like television soap opera than cinema... in the sense that everything is interconnected, has byzantine continuity concerns, and less self-sufficient in terms of storytelling than traditional cinematic narrative. and that's not necessarily a bad thing.

this all feels like part of that never-ending struggle between art that is "important" and art that is "fun". they're always competing against each other for our attention.

Isn't the history of comic books been the never-ending struggle against art that is "important" and art this is " fun"? I will just throw this in. My wife's father who died was a classical musician. Had a good career. Anyway they were adults during the Beatles craze. My wife's mom always had a funny line once. And this is nothing against her because she was married to a classical artist and was already in her late 20's when the Beatles hit. She said oh they were ok they had one nice song ' Yesterday". And her views were not unique at al. Rock n roll, and all this other stuff was primitive and pathetic compared to classical for that generation. And probably still is.

[Ramsay Snow]

Tarantino is a bandwagoneer. Years ago he was geeking out when he was asked about the Pulp Fiction reference in The Winter Soldier. He's also on record saying he loved Thor: Ragnarok and The Avengers. https://www.empireonline.com/movies/...thor-ragnarok/

But then after Scorsese made it obligatory for "serious" filmmakers to **** on the MCU he suddenly came out saying that these movies aren't his cup of tea. Yeah right...

When did Tarantino say they're not his cup of tea? Scorsese must've started making negative comments about the MCU around 7yrs ago, because I listened to a Bret Easton Ellis podcast episode with Tarantino (from 7 years ago) and they addressed Scorsese's remarks. They pretty much shrugged Scorsese off by saying filmmakers putting down the MCU are the same as critics and filmmakers who were lamenting about blockbusters such as Star Wars and Jaws destroying auteur cinema in the late 70s.

I don't really care if filmmakers or critics hate an entire genre like some are doing with superhero films. If they have interesting points like Scorsese, I actually find it interesting to see his point of view, but when someone like Cronenberg says all comic book films are garbage I don't take the comments too seriously (and it was hilarious when Cronenberg was told one of his favorite films, Road To Perdition, was a comic book film).

[Frobisher]

…when someone like Cronenberg says all comic book films are garbage I don't take the comments too seriously (and it was hilarious when Cronenberg was told one of his favorite films, Road To Perdition, was a comic book film).

Cronenberg’s own A History Of Violence is actually a comic book adaptation. Of course, comics are a medium rather than a genre, so assuming particular kinds of story are comic book or not makes no sense.

[Mister Mets]

Isn't the history of comic books been the never-ending struggle against art that is "important" and art this is " fun"? I will just throw this in. My wife's father who died was a classical musician. Had a good career. Anyway they were adults during the Beatles craze. My wife's mom always had a funny line once. And this is nothing against her because she was married to a classical artist and was already in her late 20's when the Beatles hit. She said oh they were ok they had one nice song ' Yesterday". And her views were not unique at al. Rock n roll, and all this other stuff was primitive and pathetic compared to classical for that generation. And probably still is.

The pushback against comic book movies isn't because of a divide what is important and what is fun. It's more about how ubiquitous this one genre is, and how convoluted the stories are because it's part of various shared universes, setting up things in later films and paying off scenes earlier.

Scorsese likes serious films, but he also likes musicals and horror.

https://www.indiewire.com/gallery/ma...h-baxter-1965/

[Frontier]

It's not for everyone.

[Ramsay Snow]

Cronenberg’s own A History Of Violence is actually a comic book adaptation. Of course, comics are a medium rather than a genre, so assuming particular kinds of story are comic book or not makes no sense.

Yeah, there are a number of people who equate comic book adaptations as solely being superhero movies......I know a guy who hates superhero films (although he liked the old ****, such as Reeves Superman) and he ended up liking Joker. He tried to argue with me that Joker isn't a comic book film, he was literally in denial and didn't want to acknowledge he likes a comic book film. Oh, woe is me.

He tries to claim that Reeves Superman was good because of the filmmaking techniques which he claims are lost upon today's superhero films. I politely informed him he's simply biased toward crap he liked as a kid.....Listening to him rant is always good for a laugh. When he criticizes modern films I nitpick the flawed 70s/80s films he loves just to get a reaction out of him. I mean, I like Escape From New York, but by no means is it a cinematic masterpiece like this guy claims it is. It's a very flawed film with a fun concept and interesting elements. It's not even close to being John Carpenter's best movie, my vote goes to The Thing, with Christine as a close 2nd. Neither of which would be considered close to being a masterpiece.

[chicago_bastard]

When did Tarantino say they're not his cup of tea? Scorsese must've started making negative comments about the MCU around 7yrs ago, because I listened to a Bret Easton Ellis podcast episode with Tarantino (from 7 years ago) and they addressed Scorsese's remarks. They pretty much shrugged Scorsese off by saying filmmakers putting down the MCU are the same as critics and filmmakers who were lamenting about blockbusters such as Star Wars and Jaws destroying auteur cinema in the late 70s.

I don't really care if filmmakers or critics hate an entire genre like some are doing with superhero films. If they have interesting points like Scorsese, I actually find it interesting to see his point of view, but when someone like Cronenberg says all comic book films are garbage I don't take the comments too seriously (and it was hilarious when Cronenberg was told one of his favorite films, Road To Perdition, was a comic book film).

It could be that Scorsese made similar remarks earlier but they didn't really make a splash back then, so Ellis and Tarantino addressing them would have been more of an insider talk at the time.

The big debate that is going on for years now in the mainstream about comic book movies being inferior art has started in October 2019 when Scorsese was making the press rounds for "The Irishman". This was the time that his infamous quote "Marvel movies aren't cinema but theme park rides" was covered heavily by all kinds of outlets and sparked a huge debate. And because of the prominent coverage Scorsese's remarks got this time it led to a trend of many other filmmakers joining him in his criticism.

So the article I posted earlier and your recalling of his podcast statements prove that Tarantino actually liked Marvel movies before Scorsese's statements made a big splash in October 2019.

Last year Tarantino had this to say about Marvel movies:

Tarantino assured that he wasn’t trying to put down the superhero films and that he doesn’t hate their work but he also doesn’t love them.

“I mean, look, I used to collect Marvel comics like crazy when I was a kid,” he added. “There’s an aspect that if these movies were coming out when I was in my twenties, I would totally be fucking happy and totally love them. I mean, they wouldn’t be the only movies being made. They would be those movies amongst other movies. But, you know, I’m almost 60, so yeah. No, I’m not quite as excited about them.” https://deadline.com/2022/11/quentin...ns-1235180354/

Reminder that in June 2019 he said this:

Like many MCU fans, Tarantino has a particular soft spot for Taika Waititi’s trippy space opera Thor: Ragnarok. “I loved it,” he said. “It was my favourite one of the series since The Avengers – drastically my favourite.”

So in June 2019 he explicitly said he loves at least two MCU films (and liked all of them well enough to make a complete MCU marathon prior to watching Endgame), but in 2022 he suddenly isn't excited about them and would only love them if he were in his twenties (he was already far out of his 20s in 2019). To me it seems that the debate started by Scorsese in late 2019 led to Tarantino not wanting to admit any longer that he loves these movies and instead joining the bandwagon of filmmakers complaining about them.

[Pinsir]

Thor: Ragnorok is an actually good film though. Tarantino has patrician taste.

Like, if people hate the actual good super hero films, go on and call them an elitist or whatever, but when people say 'superhero are bad' I think a good faith interpretation of that statement is 'most of them are slop' which, they obviously are.

Also, I think it is important to put Scorsese's "anti-Marvel" statements in the proper context. As far as I know, he hasn't penned an op-ed denouncing Marvel. It's just reporters asking him questions and him giving an answer, one of a dozen over a single interview. I doubt he thinks about superhero movies much at all.

[Kirby101]

Thor: Ragnorok is an actually good film though. Tarantino has patrician taste.

Like, if people hate the actual good super hero films, go on and call them an elitist or whatever, but when people say 'superhero are bad' I think a good faith interpretation of that statement is 'most of them are slop' which, they obviously are.

Also, I think it is important to put Scorsese's "anti-Marvel" statements in the proper context. As far as I know, he hasn't penned an op-ed denouncing Marvel. It's just reporters asking him questions and him giving an answer, one of a dozen over a single interview. I doubt he thinks about superhero movies much at all.

He wrote one for the NY Times.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/04/o...se-marvel.html

So yeah, he isn't just replying to questions.

[Material Flux]

I've come to think that all of this auteur vs the MCU stuff is just advertising. It's a way for trades to gain clicks and for folks like Scorcese to get some free publicity that highlights how high class his brand is, which is always a good way for people to appeal to the rich.

[Pinsir]

He wrote one for the NY Times.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/04/o...se-marvel.html

So yeah, he isn't just replying to questions.

But, that is what happened, he says as much in this article;

When I was in England in early October, I gave an interview to Empire magazine. I was asked a question about Marvel movies. I answered it. I said that I’ve tried to watch a few of them and that they’re not for me, that they seem to me to be closer to theme parks than they are to movies as I’ve known and loved them throughout my life, and that in the end, I don’t think they’re cinema.

The article is only three paragraphs long, its not a manifesto, it is more of a clarification. It genuinely comes across to me like he barely thinks about Marvel movies, where as Scorsese lives rent free in the heads in a lot of MCU fans (including Kevin Fiege).

He's not even saying MCU films are bad, just that they aren't cinema, which is true.

[HollowSage]

He's not even saying MCU films are bad, just that they aren't cinema, which is true.

Define Cinema? What is it?

[Pinsir]

Define Cinema? What is it?

Cinema is like the Tao, our words fail to describe its ineffable nature. It can only be known through intuition and experience.

[Bunch of Coconuts]

Cinema is like the Tao, our words fail to describe its ineffable nature. It can only be known through intuition and experience.

You made me ruin my keyboard.

[HollowSage]

Cinema is like the Tao, our words fail to describe its ineffable nature. It can only be known through intuition and experience.

So you don’t know either. Got it.