The Status Quo

[Daibhidh]

Spidey being a working class hero, Goblin being elitist in every story he shows up, etc.

I think it's a bit more complicated. Most of Spider-man's Rogues Gallery are either working class themselves or else scientifically trained. With the exception of Kraven I'd say they're all possible futures for Peter that he needs to avoid.(*) Then Peter goes to college, starts associating with Harry Osborn and Gwen Stacy, who are from a wealthier background than he is; and both Gwen and Harry's fathers turn up. So when Norman turns out to be the Goblin he is being presented as another possible future for Peter to avoid.
I think that at the time it was written, upward mobility for first-generation university students was still a plausible aspiration or at least more plausible than it is at the moment. Norman isn't presented as having a qualitatively greater level of wealth than George Stacy and J Jonah Jameson.

(*) Only about half of them are animal themed. If you think that the majors are the Sinister Six and the Green Goblin, less than half, and that's counting Kraven.

[Kaitou D. Kid]

I think it's a bit more complicated. Most of Spider-man's Rogues Gallery are either working class themselves or else scientifically trained. With the exception of Kraven I'd say they're all possible futures for Peter that he needs to avoid.(*) Then Peter goes to college, starts associating with Harry Osborn and Gwen Stacy, who are from a wealthier background than he is; and both Gwen and Harry's fathers turn up. So when Norman turns out to be the Goblin he is being presented as another possible future for Peter to avoid.
I think that at the time it was written, upward mobility for first-generation university students was still a plausible aspiration or at least more plausible than it is at the moment. Norman isn't presented as having a qualitatively greater level of wealth than George Stacy and J Jonah Jameson.

(*) Only about half of them are animal themed. If you think that the majors are the Sinister Six and the Green Goblin, less than half, and that's counting Kraven.

Someone like JJ was definitely closer in wealth to Norman than today (they were shown literally part of the same club lol), but Norman was still presented as an industrialist. I don't know if Lee/Ditko/Romita wanted us to assume that he has equal wealth to Jonah and Captain Stacy. Maybe Jonah since he owns The Bugle, but not Captain Stacy.

In any case, while it's definitely more complicated and there's more to their dynamic than just class, I think the assertion there isn't an ounce of class politics to their dynamic (like the other poster stated) is absurd since we're talking about Spider-Man.

[Tuck]

Someone like JJ was definitely closer in wealth to Norman than today (they were shown literally part of the same club lol), but Norman was still presented as an industrialist. I don't know if Lee/Ditko/Romita wanted us to assume that he has equal wealth to Jonah and Captain Stacy. Maybe Jonah since he owns The Bugle, but not Captain Stacy.

In any case, while it's definitely more complicated and there's more to their dynamic than just class, I think the assertion there isn't an ounce of class politics to their dynamic (like the other poster stated) is absurd since we're talking about Spider-Man.

If Marvel gave a shit about class, they wouldn't be trading so many civilian supporting characters for superpowered ones.

[Kaitou D. Kid]

If Marvel gave a shit about class, they wouldn't be trading so many civilian supporting characters for superpowered ones.

I don't think this assertion makes much sense or is relevant to my point about Peter/Norman.

[Spidey_Legend]

Someone like JJ was definitely closer in wealth to Norman than today (they were shown literally part of the same club lol), but Norman was still presented as an industrialist. I don't know if Lee/Ditko/Romita wanted us to assume that he has equal wealth to Jonah and Captain Stacy. Maybe Jonah since he owns The Bugle, but not Captain Stacy.

In any case, while it's definitely more complicated and there's more to their dynamic than just class, I think the assertion there isn't an ounce of class politics to their dynamic (like the other poster stated) is absurd since we're talking about Spider-Man.

I don't think is abour power/money but the reputation of their jobs they carried. George Stacy as police captain, Norman as an industrial and Jonah as the media emperor. That's why they joined the same club.

If I had to guess, the original greed businessman was Wilson Fisk.

[Kaitou D. Kid]

I don't think is abour power/money but the reputation of their jobs they carried. George Stacy as police captain, Norman as an industrial and Jonah as the media emperor. That's why they joined the same club.

That's a good point.

If I had to guess, the original greed businessman was Wilson Fisk.

Norman showed up first, though.

[Spidey_Legend]

That's a good point.



Norman showed up first, though.

Yes on that but not as a uber greedy corporate businessman even if you count the stuff with Mendel Stromm.

[Daibhidh]

Yes on that but not as a uber greedy corporate businessman even if you count the stuff with Mendel Stromm.

I think there's some suggestion that Osborn was only too eager to charge Stromm with embezzling when Stromm intended to return the money. But then I think all embezzlers 'intend' to return the money. But the suggestion is I think that it's a medium sized business rather than a global corporation.
I don't know when the earliest instance of Norman, when not in his Goblin persona, bullying or belittling Harry is.

[exile001]

I don't know when the earliest instance of Norman, when not in his Goblin persona, bullying or belittling Harry is.

In ASM #39, Norman and Harry argue with Harry reflecting that everything he does is wrong. He mentions that they used to be really close until a few years ago (presumably when Norman took the Goblin Serum). The payoff being, when Spidey defeats the Goblin, it seems like Harry and Normans' relationship has a chance of getting back on track.

Norman isn't the monster he got retconned into being (particularly post-resurrection), but even right there Harry's sense of self-worth is clearly being negatively affected by his father.

[Mister Mets]

I don't think is abour power/money but the reputation of their jobs they carried. George Stacy as police captain, Norman as an industrial and Jonah as the media emperor. That's why they joined the same club.

If I had to guess, the original greed businessman was Wilson Fisk.

Fisk was a generic crime boss in the Spider-Man comics. He wasn't really operating in public until Miller's run on Daredevil.

[Garlador]

In ASM #39, Norman and Harry argue with Harry reflecting that everything he does is wrong. He mentions that they used to be really close until a few years ago (presumably when Norman took the Goblin Serum). The payoff being, when Spidey defeats the Goblin, it seems like Harry and Normans' relationship has a chance of getting back on track.

Norman isn't the monster he got retconned into being (particularly post-resurrection), but even right there Harry's sense of self-worth is clearly being negatively affected by his father.

I don’t know about that. There was plenty of times they referenced Norman as cruel and abusive, LONG before Norman was resurrected. A big part of Harry’s arc was trying to break the bad habits and cycle of abuse he inherited from his family.

[Daibhidh]

I don’t know about that. There was plenty of times they referenced Norman as cruel and abusive, LONG before Norman was resurrected. A big part of Harry’s arc was trying to break the bad habits and cycle of abuse he inherited from his family.

Judging by the artwork that's from the nineties or at least late eighties? So it is a retcon, paving the way for Norman's post-resurrection portrayal. As retcons go it's fair, but it's not what readers in the sixties would have seen.
(I think Norman works better as someone who on the whole adheres to the standards expected of a nineteen fifties patriarch and industrialist, if perhaps a little overly zealous about them. That way the Goblin is a commentary upon the outworkings of those standards: he's a manifestation of toxic masculinity that doesn't know quite how camp it is. If Norman is always corrupt by any standards then the Goblin is less interesting.

[Kaitou D. Kid]

Judging by the artwork that's from the nineties or at least late eighties? So it is a retcon, paving the way for Norman's post-resurrection portrayal. As retcons go it's fair, but it's not what readers in the sixties would have seen.
(I think Norman works better as someone who on the whole adheres to the standards expected of a nineteen fifties patriarch and industrialist, if perhaps a little overly zealous about them. That way the Goblin is a commentary upon the outworkings of those standards: he's a manifestation of toxic masculinity that doesn't know quite how camp it is. If Norman is always corrupt by any standards then the Goblin is less interesting.

I'm paraphrasing, but Peter says in ASM #40 that "he was always a corrupt industrialist, the Goblin just made him worse."