Thoughts on X-23/Wolverine v Talon

[Jackraow21]

Is really how a sign of how good those two are or how poorly thought and prepared the entire vault mission was ?

You already know what I think. They’re that good, baby.

[Ulysian_Thracs]

His weakness is likely still in effect since it limited him during the Brood arc.

Orchis can't just be destroyed by a single Omega - they already tried and failed with Magneto, and Jean's powers wouldn't do much there. Synch already dealt with editing someone's mind for the greater good. And even if he did do that, there would still be a lot of unanswered questions and clean up required - it wouldn't be feasible, especially eith the limited resources they have. And if they failed there, Orchis would just have more ammunition to use against them.

Synch definitely would sacrifice himself to save everyone. But at the moment, that's not what will help in the long run.

Strong disagree that Orchis could stand up to Jean Grey-level psionics on a planetary scale. Or reality warping. But let's make it even simpler...hasn't Synch spent enough time around Eva bell to go back in time to the morning of the Hellifre Gala and say, "Hey, guys. Why don't we check the perimeter defenses one more time..."

And that's the problem with Synch as a character. If he can really do anything any Mutant (or metahuman) can do, then the plot just doesn't make sense anymore. It demeans HIM, who is a great character without the powers.

[Gray Lensman]

Even if it was the greatest love story ever told, these people would hate it lol

Some would, especially those who are the "muh ship" types, but they would hate ANY story that doesn't have their preferred pairing no matter what.

My own take is that it should have been shown, even via a flashback mini, but I also think that should have happened with Jean and Scott reconciling. Even though I like that it happened, it should have been shown rather than starting at the end of that particular chapter.

[Malachi]

Some would, especially those who are the "muh ship" types, but they would hate ANY story that doesn't have their preferred pairing no matter what.

My own take is that it should have been shown, even via a flashback mini, but I also think that should have happened with Jean and Scott reconciling. Even though I like that it happened, it should have been shown rather than starting at the end of that particular chapter.

Hickman stated that moments like these aren't important. That's why he skipped it. Synch and Laura falling in love the way they did was very much a choice. Hickman stands for what he believes. He walks the walk, you got to admire him for that. I think he is very much in the wrong on this point, but I prefer people like him over others who try to sell it as something else.

In the end Hickman attempted a story that in some parts are far from his wheel house. He didn't stick the landing on those parts. Then Duggan decided he liked the story and wanted it to continue. Whatever Duggan has done or haven't is not an excuse for X-23 to be handled this poorly. It seems she falls into the same catergory as Remy, Rogue, Warren and others. Characters who sell but for some reason aren't inspiring the creatives during the Krakoan era. Instead we get projects who seems like afterthoughts. I'd say that Dark X-men is the first project during the Krakoan era where Remy is written in character. X-termintors being Lauras best and that speaks volume. I'm not counting the flashback mini as it take place in the past.

[Rift]

Strong disagree that Orchis could stand up to Jean Grey-level psionics on a planetary scale. Or reality warping. But let's make it even simpler...hasn't Synch spent enough time around Eva bell to go back in time to the morning of the Hellifre Gala and say, "Hey, guys. Why don't we check the perimeter defenses one more time..."

And that's the problem with Synch as a character. If he can really do anything any Mutant (or metahuman) can do, then the plot just doesn't make sense anymore. It demeans HIM, who is a great character without the powers.

Jean is strong, but they haven't made her world-breakingly strong for a long time. Jean herself can't magically fix everything. (She might end up doing that, but it'll be after a long time of self-exploration, Phoenix-related shenanigans and possible character-shilling.) And we don't know if he could capture the full extent of her powers; the data page that established his "muscle memory" regarding powers said that it was limited, and Synch was unwilling to continue experiments and studies to test his limits. And this is on top of Jean's long being established as unique, even her duplicates don't have nearly as much power as she does. At the very least, I can't recall any of Synch's feats with her powers being particularly amazing.

Magneto with a circuit couldn't even harm their base, which would be what they would need to take down. That's already a huge deterrent to even try at the moment - it's just a big risk that has a very good chance of not paying off. And assuming Synch could use Jean's full fight take it down, he'd die soon after. Orchis would be dealt a huge blow, but they still have their bases all over the world and can recover over time and now have even more PR ammunition to use against the mutants. Meanwhile, the remaining mutants lost their most powerful asset and a good leader.

Time travel in general is ignored as an option, like they could have fixed so many problems but they always ignore it. But with Eva, it's very likely he wouldn't be able to use her abilities from memory. The people he synched with from memory are his fellow X-Men, whom he lived with for months, actively trained with their powers for just as long, and had a close bond with. Synch doesn't really hang out with the Five all that much, and he didn't have much exposure to their powers in action - much less have trained with them.

[Gray Lensman]

Hickman stated that moments like these aren't important. That's why he skipped it. Synch and Laura falling in love the way they did was very much a choice. Hickman stands for what he believes. He walks the walk, you got to admire him for that. I think he is very much in the wrong on this point, but I prefer people like him over others who try to sell it as something else.

In the end Hickman attempted a story that in some parts are far from his wheel house. He didn't stick the landing on those parts. Then Duggan decided he liked the story and wanted it to continue. Whatever Duggan has done or haven't is not an excuse for X-23 to be handled this poorly. It seems she falls into the same catergory as Remy, Rogue, Warren and others. Characters who sell but for some reason aren't inspiring the creatives during the Krakoan era. Instead we get projects who seems like afterthoughts. I'd say that Dark X-men is the first project during the Krakoan era where Remy is written in character. X-termintors being Lauras best and that speaks volume. I'm not counting the flashback mini as it take place in the past.

I can do the same, respect the decision even if I don't agree with it. A writer who knows his limits is less likely to write bad stories, although I do wish he could have farmed out that part to a writer who was capable of it, just letting them know where things need to end up and what not to do, and then allowing them to fill in the rest - it might have even given other writers sone seeds to play with later (like new villains or supporting characters).

But as they say, if wishes were horses beggars would ride.

[JamJams]

I like both. But what I wanted to see was how both of them interact with Gabby.

[Havok83]

Strong disagree that Orchis could stand up to Jean Grey-level psionics on a planetary scale. Or reality warping. But let's make it even simpler...hasn't Synch spent enough time around Eva bell to go back in time to the morning of the Hellifre Gala and say, "Hey, guys. Why don't we check the perimeter defenses one more time..."

And that's the problem with Synch as a character. If he can really do anything any Mutant (or metahuman) can do, then the plot just doesn't make sense anymore. It demeans HIM, who is a great character without the powers.

that wouldnt change anything. It would only create a divergent timeline where the HG massacre didnt happen, but it would still be the reality of the present day 616. Preventing the massacre may cause its own problems which may be even worse. Besides Synch's powers dont work like that. He hasnt spent a whole lot of time around Eva but even if he did, he wouldnt be accessing those to their fullest potential. I doubt he'd be able to time travel but rather maybe manipulate local time around him

[davetvs]

Plus you could make that same argument about Rogue, Hope, Mimic, Magik, Tempo, Proteus, Jamie Braddock...............why doesn't this one character just solve everything? Because X-Men is a Team Book Franchise.

[Grunty]

Plus you could make that same argument about Rogue, Hope, Mimic, Magik, Tempo, Proteus, Jamie Braddock...............why doesn't this one character just solve everything? Because X-Men is a Team Book Franchise.

Plus the enemies need to frequently gain the upper hand to provide the "stakes" for stories.

The problem however is that they can only produce so many viable feeling enemies out of practically nowhere each story arc, because the previous ones have either become outclassed by the heros, can only be used so often in a short amount of time, turned to the side of the heros (especially in the current status quo) or they are dead.

Hence why so many new opponents like Orchis feel "fake" or artifical elevanted against all reason, because the longtime reader is highly aware of what the heros had allready done and could do at any moment.

They can send a team of mostly C- and C-listers to the point where the universe begann and steal a super duper metal from it, which is so usefull that galactic EMPIRES are willing to barter for it, but a bunch of evil human scientist can still oppose them and they are struggeling with maintaining goodwill with the rest of humanity who are still stuck in early 21st century technologies and nations? This doesn't add up.

Which is why the writers have to "nerf" the heros for their stories to still have the story beats their genre and world demands, but that in turn is a wire act because of how much the long time readership need to be willing to accept it.

Basicly the X-men have won too often and now have far too many and too powerfull members for new opposition to be properly established anymore. One of the detriments of over stretched continuity forced into stagnation and limitation to the same characters.

[Malachi]

Plus the enemies need to frequently gain the upper hand to provide the "stakes" for stories.

The problem however is that they can only produce so many viable feeling enemies out of practically nowhere each story arc, because the previous ones have either become outclassed by the heros, can only be used so often in a short amount of time, turned to the side of the heros (especially in the current status quo) or they are dead.

Hence why so many new opponents like Orchis feel "fake" or artifical elevanted against all reason, because the longtime reader is highly aware of what the heros had allready done and could do at any moment.

They can send a team of mostly C- and C-listers to the point where the universe begann and steal a super duper metal from it, which is so usefull that galactic EMPIRES are willing to barter for it, but a bunch of evil human scientist can still oppose them and they are struggeling with maintaining goodwill with the rest of humanity who are still stuck in early 21st century technologies and nations? This doesn't add up.

Which is why the writers have to "nerf" the heros for their stories to still have the story beats their genre and world demands, but that in turn is a wire act because of how much the long time readership need to be willing to accept it.

Basicly the X-men have won too often and now have far too many and too powerfull members for new opposition to be properly established anymore. One of the detriments of over stretched continuity forced into stagnation and limitation to the same characters.

It’s because Hickman started the story as something else than what it has become. He ramped up everyone and their power levels. Circuits and whatnot. He did so because he likes these final omega stories. Where the conflict is pushed to a ridiculous level in powers. We have seen them before from him. The end of all stories that gets pulled inside of itself so we can start again at a point similar to we’re we started.

In that scope we could have all the old villains and omegas hanging around. We left that scope and got Orichis. Who needs plot armor to function.

It feels like Jean is a good example of this. Marvel is just hanging out, killing time, until they can get her back to Phoenix. But to have her on that level is pretty much only feasible for one big galactic conflict. So it’s the end, or an end.

Krakoa or not is not the big issue. The big issue is the inevitable nerf of power levels coming our way.

Look at poor Nate Grey. Killed off, resurrected as almost powerless. Then restored and driven mad to be exiled to his own private dimension.

Legion gets control=he will be killed or depowered.

These powerhouses are not long for Marvels world. Not if they play on the side of angels.

[marhawkman]

It’s because Hickman started the story as something else than what it has become. He ramped up everyone and their power levels. Circuits and whatnot. He did so because he likes these final omega stories. Where the conflict is pushed to a ridiculous level in powers. We have seen them before from him. The end of all stories that gets pulled inside of itself so we can start again at a point similar to we’re we started.

In that scope we could have all the old villains and omegas hanging around. We left that scope and got Orichis. Who needs plot armor to function.

It feels like Jean is a good example of this. Marvel is just hanging out, killing time, until they can get her back to Phoenix. But to have her on that level is pretty much only feasible for one big galactic conflict. So it’s the end, or an end.

Krakoa or not is not the big issue. The big issue is the inevitable nerf of power levels coming our way.

Look at poor Nate Grey. Killed off, resurrected as almost powerless. Then restored and driven mad to be exiled to his own private dimension.

Legion gets control=he will be killed or depowered.

These powerhouses are not long for Marvels world. Not if they play on the side of angels.

And they had the audacity to put Selene Gallio and Apocalypse and a bunch of other Mutant former villains... as citizens of Krakoa. these are characters that have created wide-spread havoc and fought multiple hero teams... and they're just... hanging out with the X-men?

[Phoenixx9]

And they had the audacity to put Selene Gallio and Apocalypse and a bunch of other Mutant former villains... as citizens of Krakoa. these are characters that have created wide-spread havoc and fought multiple hero teams... and they're just... hanging out with the X-men?

Can't they all just get along....???

[Havok83]

And they had the audacity to put Selene Gallio and Apocalypse and a bunch of other Mutant former villains... as citizens of Krakoa. these are characters that have created wide-spread havoc and fought multiple hero teams... and they're just... hanging out with the X-men?

They made it make sense and the character development that Apocalypse got this era was the best thing that was done with him since he was created back in the 80s. Outside of OG X-Factor, he's never been a great villian and quite frankly was overhyped bc of AOA and TAS, both of which were alternate reality versions of him, not the actual 616 character. Krakoa recontextualized and made him a compelling character in a way he really hasn't been. I'd compare the work done with him now to what Claremont did with Magneto. It would be hard to see him back as a moustache twirling villian. He works better the way he is now

Plus the enemies need to frequently gain the upper hand to provide the "stakes" for stories.

The problem however is that they can only produce so many viable feeling enemies out of practically nowhere each story arc, because the previous ones have either become outclassed by the heros, can only be used so often in a short amount of time, turned to the side of the heros (especially in the current status quo) or they are dead.

Hence why so many new opponents like Orchis feel "fake" or artifical elevanted against all reason, because the longtime reader is highly aware of what the heros had allready done and could do at any moment.

They can send a team of mostly C- and C-listers to the point where the universe begann and steal a super duper metal from it, which is so usefull that galactic EMPIRES are willing to barter for it, but a bunch of evil human scientist can still oppose them and they are struggeling with maintaining goodwill with the rest of humanity who are still stuck in early 21st century technologies and nations? This doesn't add up.

Which is why the writers have to "nerf" the heros for their stories to still have the story beats their genre and world demands, but that in turn is a wire act because of how much the long time readership need to be willing to accept it.

Basicly the X-men have won too often and now have far too many and too powerfull members for new opposition to be properly established anymore. One of the detriments of over stretched continuity forced into stagnation and limitation to the same characters.

Orchis isnt just a bunch of evil human scientists. They have quite a few powerful super threats on their side. Krakoa didnt fall bc of Orchis IMO, but rather the mutants themselves, namely the QC. They got too arrogant and sloppy . Too many people in positions of high power that truly couldnt be trusted and not enough checks and balances. All Orchis did was exploit the flaws and defeated the mutants with their intellect, not raw power. Orchis had a few traitors and spies within the Krakoa like Moira, Brand, Shaw, Selene, etc... that made it possible bc of the intel they recieved

[marhawkman]

They made it make sense and the character development that Apocalypse got this era was the best thing that was done with him since he was created back in the 80s. Outside of OG X-Factor, he's never been a great villian and quite frankly was overhyped bc of AOA and TAS, both of which were alternate reality versions of him, not the actual 616 character. Krakoa recontextualized and made him a compelling character in a way he really hasn't been. I'd compare the work done with him now to what Claremont did with Magneto. It would be hard to see him back as a moustache twirling villian. He works better the way he is now

Thing is... it made up new stuff out of left field for En Sabah Nur. It doesn't mesh with his previously established history AT ALL. It's NEAT, but... how?!?!?