X-men unlimited 112. Fire star part 1

[Huntsman Spider]

I really hope this ties into Astonishing Iceman.

Considering Spider-Man is appearing soon in that one, it could be an Amazing Friends reunion!

[juan678]

X-MEN UNLIMITED #112 preview

https://www.marvel.com/articles/comi...iew-first-look

[juan678]

[NewMutant]

Considering Spider-Man is appearing soon in that one, it could be an Amazing Friends reunion!

They have been pushing the Iceman and Firestar friendship this era, it would connect Astonishing Iceman into the bigger picture, and Orlando is the writer on both... so I'm hopeful.

[Micabe]

According to his WIKI:

Telepathy: Traveller possesses some degree of psionic power, primarily the ability to alter one's sense of perception and create illusions. He can also read minds and alter one's memories. Traveller uses his powers and knowledge to make himself seem far more powerful than he actually is, claiming at times to be a sorcerer or a godlike being.

[Huntsman Spider]

They have been pushing the Iceman and Firestar friendship this era, it would connect Astonishing Iceman into the bigger picture, and Orlando is the writer on both... so I'm hopeful.

Same.

If only Traveller could get the same thing Mastermind got.

On another note, Justice being in this could be very good for his character development as well, I'd think. Ever since he willingly went to prison for killing his abusive father by accident, even saying to his friends in the New Warriors that his powers didn't give him the right to ignore the law, I've come to think that while that's a noble and righteous stance in a vacuum, what happens when the law isn't just? When the law is wielded as a weapon against people who are different, people who are marginalized in society because of that difference and used to justify brutal and draconian measures of enforcement? When the law targets certain people(s) for complete subjugation, if not outright extermination if they will not be subjugated? Is it so noble and righteous to follow the law, then?

[BobbysWorld]

Same.



If only Traveller could get the same thing Mastermind got.

On another note, Justice being in this could be very good for his character development as well, I'd think. Ever since he willingly went to prison for killing his abusive father by accident, even saying to his friends in the New Warriors that his powers didn't give him the right to ignore the law, I've come to think that while that's a noble and righteous stance in a vacuum, what happens when the law isn't just? When the law is wielded as a weapon against people who are different, people who are marginalized in society because of that difference and used to justify brutal and draconian measures of enforcement? When the law targets certain people(s) for complete subjugation, if not outright extermination if they will not be subjugated? Is it so noble and righteous to follow the law, then?

When the unjust are the ones making the laws, those who enforce their unjust laws are the real criminals. Etc, etc.

[Chris0013]

Same.



If only Traveller could get the same thing Mastermind got.

On another note, Justice being in this could be very good for his character development as well, I'd think. Ever since he willingly went to prison for killing his abusive father by accident, even saying to his friends in the New Warriors that his powers didn't give him the right to ignore the law, I've come to think that while that's a noble and righteous stance in a vacuum, what happens when the law isn't just? When the law is wielded as a weapon against people who are different, people who are marginalized in society because of that difference and used to justify brutal and draconian measures of enforcement? When the law targets certain people(s) for complete subjugation, if not outright extermination if they will not be subjugated? Is it so noble and righteous to follow the law, then?

That is why I wanted to see him throughout this Krakoa era as a mutant who was against it. There were so many stories that could have been done showing a mutant who was really integrating into society and not cutting himself off from it. Not portrayed as some sell out...but as a hero who just happens to be a mutant.

[Micabe]

Same.



If only Traveller could get the same thing Mastermind got.

On another note, Justice being in this could be very good for his character development as well, I'd think. Ever since he willingly went to prison for killing his abusive father by accident, even saying to his friends in the New Warriors that his powers didn't give him the right to ignore the law, I've come to think that while that's a noble and righteous stance in a vacuum, what happens when the law isn't just? When the law is wielded as a weapon against people who are different, people who are marginalized in society because of that difference and used to justify brutal and draconian measures of enforcement? When the law targets certain people(s) for complete subjugation, if not outright extermination if they will not be subjugated? Is it so noble and righteous to follow the law, then?

[Huntsman Spider]

When the unjust are the ones making the laws, those who enforce their unjust laws are the real criminals. Etc, etc.

Pretty much.

That is why I wanted to see him throughout this Krakoa era as a mutant who was against it. There were so many stories that could have been done showing a mutant who was really integrating into society and not cutting himself off from it. Not portrayed as some sell out...but as a hero who just happens to be a mutant.

That would have definitely been interesting, though I'd mention on the subject of mutants integrating with (the rest of) human society, the question has been, "What do you do when you do your best to do everything 'right,' but the society you live in doesn't want you in the first place?" That's been the real problem, as far as I've been able to tell, not so much of even the more heroic mutants not doing enough to ingratiate themselves with or endear themselves to humanity, but humanity as a whole denying mutants' right to exist, often violently. Hell, as an allegory for what a number of marginalized peoples and groups are going through in real life at the moment, being effectively purged from public life with the justification that their presence, their very existence, is deleterious and corruptive to the country as a whole, and especially the developing, impressionable minds of young people, the X-Men haven't been this relevant in years. Going back to Justice himself, however, I do hope there's something of a balance between the argument that says, "Mutants separating themselves from humanity, however necessary it was for their own survival and wellbeing, did nothing but exacerbate human fear and distrust of mutants," and the one that posits, "No matter how 'good' you are or try to be, the likes of Orchis and their supporters, backers, and enablers will still come for you if you're a mutant."

Looking at the real world . . . I think we might be getting some answers now.

[Chris0013]

That would have definitely been interesting, though I'd mention on the subject of mutants integrating with (the rest of) human society, the question has been, "What do you do when you do your best to do everything 'right,' but the society you live in doesn't want you in the first place?" That's been the real problem, as far as I've been able to tell, not so much of even the more heroic mutants not doing enough to ingratiate themselves with or endear themselves to humanity, but humanity as a whole denying mutants' right to exist, often violently. Hell, as an allegory for what a number of marginalized peoples and groups are going through in real life at the moment, being effectively purged from public life with the justification that their presence, their very existence, is deleterious and corruptive to the country as a whole, and especially the developing, impressionable minds of young people, the X-Men haven't been this relevant in years. Going back to Justice himself, however, I do hope there's something of a balance between the argument that says, "Mutants separating themselves from humanity, however necessary it was for their own survival and wellbeing, did nothing but exacerbate human fear and distrust of mutants," and the one that posits, "No matter how 'good' you are or try to be, the likes of Orchis and their supporters, backers, and enablers will still come for you if you're a mutant."

I think with Vance we see another side to the treatment of mutants. When he went to the Vault he was shown respect by the guards, the warden and I imagine even other prisoners showed respect when he started fighting for better conditions...like getting the warden's plant for terraformer. As opposed the what Cyclops went through in prison after the whole Phoenix 5 thing and another mutant being killed in prison when he was there.

Also Columbia University did not kick him out when he was outed and even transferred the credits he earned in prison. As opposed to Morph being kicked out of UT Austin when his powers manifested.

There really was a difference in his experiences. And I would say that could be a matter of the public coverage of his life. The murder trial, books written about him and a Dateline special. After that being an Avenger meant he was more in the public eye. People know who he is as well as they could know Cap or Iron Man. Whereas the X-Men generally do what they do then run off to the Mansion...even committing what could be considered a terrorist act with infiltrating Cheyenne Mountain and not justifying their actions afterward.

Yes...Orchis and their type are going to hate him just because...but it could be that he is the mutant who many consider the exception and going after him could backfire on Orchis.

[Huntsman Spider]

I think with Vance we see another side to the treatment of mutants. When he went to the Vault he was shown respect by the guards, the warden and I imagine even other prisoners showed respect when he started fighting for better conditions...like getting the warden's plant for terraformer. As opposed the what Cyclops went through in prison after the whole Phoenix 5 thing and another mutant being killed in prison when he was there.

Also Columbia University did not kick him out when he was outed and even transferred the credits he earned in prison. As opposed to Morph being kicked out of UT Austin when his powers manifested.

There really was a difference in his experiences. And I would say that could be a matter of the public coverage of his life. The murder trial, books written about him and a Dateline special. After that being an Avenger meant he was more in the public eye. People know who he is as well as they could know Cap or Iron Man. Whereas the X-Men generally do what they do then run off to the Mansion...even committing what could be considered a terrorist act with infiltrating Cheyenne Mountain and not justifying their actions afterward.

Fair points there.

[BobbysWorld]

I mean, I think it also has to be pointed out that the entire storyline - even up to renaming himself Justice - had a VERY clear vantage point it was being written from.....the whole point of the narrative was for it to be a 'see, prison can work' storyline. The guards treated Vance well once he submitted to the verdict and agreed it was what he deserved....because the POV of the narrative very clearly centered the idea that 'if you trust in the system, the system will work'.....and that's an incredibly naive and tone deaf stance for a narrative to take, especially after a character being part of a marginalized group people are wary of is HIGHLIGHTED at his trial, thus calling the fairness of it into question on the most basic levels.

Things didn't go well for Vance at the prison because oh that's just what prison is like as long as you behave and don't contest having to be there in the first place. They went that way because those were the specific actions the writer deliberately chose for them to take, in order to create the specific atmosphere he wanted that part of the story to have. In order to make the point that Vance going to prison was ultimately a good thing.

But at the end of the day.....Vance was still a seventeen year old abuse victim (and yes I found the panel that explicitly clarifies he was 17) who had spent the past four years being abused SPECIFICALLY for being a mutant (that was his dad's given reason when beating him)....and who went to not just prison....but the adult Supermax for supervillains....the Vault....for accidentally killing his abuser in self-defense when he was actively being abused.

And sorry not sorry, but I refuse to take any story seriously and view it as unbiased if it tries to pretend that the literal ONLY superhero - let alone a teenager and known abuse victim - in a prison full of adult supervillains.....is going to have just a la-dee-da, by the books, 'no problems here whatsoever' stay in prison, whether the guards have a soft spot for him or not.

The entire storyline from trial to prison stay and Vance's takeaway once out of it.....was practically pro-prison propaganda, it was so hilariously skewed towards one side.

Screenshot 2023-11-03 195151.jpg

https://yourimageshare.com/ib/9i7ZYuRqph (Larger size here)

[Dermie]

I really don't think Nicieza was trying to send a pro-prison message. I think it was more of a "the system doesn't always work" message with one of the heroes being sent to prison, etc, as well as Vance calling out issues at The Vault with other prisoners that were being mistreated, while he was getting preferential treatment, etc.

Vance submitted to the verdict because at that point he was still the boy-scout type who very much believed in the system and the rules, etc. He came out of the experience with a less naive perspective...still believing in the principles of the rules, but more aware of the flaws and failures in the system.

[BobbysWorld]

I mean, the very fact that Vance as one of the inmates COULD call out problems within the prison framework, such as how various supervillains could be treated, speaks to the messaging being that addressing the flaws in the system is as easy to fix or at least improve upon as simply having one of the inmates point them out, or that the prison authorities would be remotely receptive to being called out by their own inmates.

I'll never be someone who thinks that the comics should reflect the real world in a directly comparable fashion, but when a comic is reflecting a specific aspect of the real world, such as the prison system, there's literally nothing gained - nor does it make for a good story IMO - to handwave away its problems and make a 'see, we fixed things' narrative. If you don't want to write a story that even somewhat realistically depicts the flawed nature of the carceral system or the realities of what life in prison is like, that's more than fine....but why write a story about it at all then? That's why I view the messaging as either at best, hopelessly naive and tone deaf 'oh I know the prison system is flawed but if we just point that out, of course the prisons would make it a priority to fix things,' or at worst, deliberately skewed towards presenting the system and prisons as well-functioning cogs in the machinery of society, that just needs the occasional cleaning to get out the gunk gumming up the works.

I'm just saying, compare Vance's story there to LaValle's Sabretooth series and its critique of the circumstances of sentencing and unbalanced ways in which justice is applied to those that authority figures within a society deem as needing rehabilitation or to be kept apart from the rest of society in the name of that society's best interests. Not to mention its critique of prisons themselves, with the narrative crafted to emphasize how locking up mild offenders or even innocent people with the worst of the worst and then looking away doesn't make authorities any less complicit when the most violent among a prison population erects their own structural framework of power, with violence and compliance being its currency.

How else, in light of that comparison, can Vance's story be framed as anything other than pro-prison and about just trusting in the system and for fairness to win out as long as you bring up issues you have with the powers that be in the 'right way'? There's no actual critique in Vance's story, or even an attempt to depict prison even somewhat realistically, there's just vague messaging about going through the proper channels and complying with authority and if you just trust that the system will work for you if you just let it work the way its supposed to, everything will work out.

Idk. I guess it just bothers me that LaValle's Sabretooth series and spotlighting of the imbalanced nature of justice and punishment within legal systems....when filtered through the framework of a fictional comic book country that a lot of people have a vested interest in SEEING condemned and criticized as inherently flawed, because they've already decided that it's incapable of functioning as a fair society....

Like, it bothers me that people have noooooo problem seeing that critique for what it is, and picking up on all the messaging as to what it says about Xavier and Magneto FOR their unfair and self-interested manipulation of due process and punishment. People have no trouble recognizing how the laws are unevenly applied, relative to which members of their society the government decides 'can get away' with breaking the rules due to their standing or usefulness vs which members of society get the book thrown at them and shoved out of sight, out of mind, because they're either deemed dangerous and subversive (Madison and Third Eye) or they tried to rise above their station and ignore the box society tried to limit them to (Melter) or simply because society doesn't care about them or see them as having any value even if they're completely innocent (Toad).

When its a fictional society that many people are already biased against or have made up their mind about.....suddenly there's no trouble understanding and internalizing what that story is saying about the nature of that society and fairness and justice, or the lack thereof. Even though the entire story is very explicitly BASED on actual real world institutions and social dynamics and INTENDED as a criticism of actual real world societies, rather than simply the made up society a marginalized community made for themselves.

But take away that bias and the distance created by couching the critique of societal elements in a fictional framework.....make it explicitly about just...the comic book equivalent of our existing prison and legal system.....and suddenly all that nuance goes away. And even a focal character being a teenage abuse victim whose one and only crime was one single moment of self-defense, sentenced by NOT a jury of his peers but by a jury of people from an entirely different social group than him, a group KNOWN to be treated differently and viewed with suspicion and hostility by most of Marvel's human societies, now thrust into an adult prison population full of the very same people that he's very publicly fought in the past, some of them even put away by him....this somehow doesn't strike people as inherently 'yeah that sounds like a pretty fucked up situation, wouldn't want to have been THAT guy.'

Nah, for some reason THIS particular prison story garners defense because it claimed that kid started a nonviolent shakeup of the entire prison's structure just by asking nicely...and doesn't remotely challenge any facet of the legal or prison systems. The flaws and imbalances so easily pointed at when its a takedown of how the mutants are doing justice systems wrong are impossible to detect here, because the story said: no, actually, all of this was a good thing. The abuse victim learned his lesson and not to kill their abuser in an extremely and uniquely charged situation that he was never likely to find himself in a direct replication of anyway, he did his time to pay his debt to society - who apparently were the REAL victims here and the ones who needed to be assured this kid had figured out that violence is never the answer to....violent abuse - and while in prison, he got everyone to clean up their act once he pointed out 'hey you guys aren't treating the inmates well' and everyone was like damn, you're right.

No, unlike Oya and Third Eye and Nekra and the others, who were the victims of an unjust legal system, as everyone can agree.....the kid who was literally just defending himself from the father who'd been abusing him for years without anyone intervening or getting justice for HIM.....he wasn't treated unfairly by the system at all, and in fact, he came out of prison BETTER than he was than he'd gone in. It was a learning experience for him. He definitely would never have become a productive and upstanding member of society without the law and prison to guide him back to the right path and away from his clear criminal leanings.

Sorry, its just extremely wild to me that even with a character who couldn't more perfectly be DESIGNED to be the most sympathetic figure imaginable in this situation.....abused kid, established hero, member of a marginalized group notorious for receiving unjust treatment from society....people are like, no flaws detected with his story. Kid got exactly what he deserved.