X-men unlimited 112. Fire star part 1

[Dermie]

Except I don't think anyone was meant to think that Vance "got what he deserved". The heroes of the series that the audience is meant to sympathize with certainly didn't. The narrative of the story didn't present it that way -- it was "look at this horrible thing that has happened to Vance, that he now has to live through". He was ALREADY a productive and upstanding member of society before he got sent to prison, and the story never tried to claim otherwise.

I get that you don't care for the story -- but it just feels like you are deliberately twisting and exaggerating what actually happened in order to make a point?

[BobbysWorld]

Just for the record, I want to acknowledge that part of my ire with this particular story is it was repeated in the 1999 volume of New Warriors. Years later, once they were adults, nonmutant superhero Richard Rider aka Nova found himself in a somewhat similar position to Vance. He intervened when he saw his ex-girlfriend being abused by her current boyfriend, misjudged his strength, and accidentally killed the boyfriend while defending her from him. The NYPD were called, Nova was released under his own recognizance due to his standing as a superhero while the authorities investigated and deliberated over what had happened, and then there was a literal press conference on the steps of the courthouse as it was announced that no charges were even going to be filed against Nova, he'd done absolutely nothing wrong.

I'm just saying, there's no way in hell that Vance would ever BEGRUDGE his friend not having to go through the same things he did, in a parallel situation, but its outright WEIRD to pretend that when acknowledging that both these stories very much happened and are canon and even involved most of the same characters.....nobody looked at how differently they played out for Rich and for Vance and said hey. What the actual fuck.

THAT'S the story I really wanted to see told this era, with Vance. Him actually WEIGHING the very concept of the amnesty Krakoa asked for on behalf of all mutants, specifically BECAUSE of the likelihood for prejudice or double standards to have played a role in whether they were convicted of crimes and how they were punished....most likely starting out dismissive of the idea that there was any credence to the idea that mutants were treated unfairly under the law and there should be a course correction to address that imbalance....but giving him the space to at least CONSIDER the idea that what happened to him was maybe NOT the golden standard of justice he'd convinced himself it was - and had others he respected and admired speak of the same way - and with this maybe leading to him at least building SOME tentative bridges to the mutant community he'd never seen much reason to be a part of in the past....once he saw how many mutants - Magda Ramirez and a bunch others I could name - had similar experiences to his own, and could relate to him or even act as a sounding board for his own review of how things played out for him and how he feels about it....in ways no one but other mutants could...not even teammates he respects and values like Rich. Because no matter how good an ally to mutants Nova is - and he ABSOLUTELY is, no question about that - the basic fact remains that even after going through something similar to Vance, but without even being able to claim the mitigating circumstances of having been as young as Vance, or directly abused himself....Nova just flat out can not relate to Vance's experience with the legal system and prison.

Because it didn't TREAT him the same way. And within the existing framework of the Marvel Earth and how human society interacts with and treats mutants....that is NOT just a random fluke.

It speaks to the entire heart of the mutant metaphor and how the issue has never been that humans hate and fear mutants because they have powers....when the same holds true of other superhumans. Its about how bigotry at its most fundamental level IS irrational and with no valid justifications, with a specific group - in this case mutants - singled out and treated differently from other groups that on the surface there is no real difference between, (like Inhumans and human superheroes). No different from how a white conservative will swear that the very existence of a black and/or gay millionaire who COULD ruin their life just by using their wealth....is a valid reason to hate that black and/or gay millionaire, and maybe even ALL black and/or gay people.....only to then turn around and defend white billionaires who are on the record as ALREADY having done things that have negatively impacted that white conservative's life or livelihood.

Like how often do we see people on this very forum treat the different ways Marvel humans view mutants vs other superhuman groups as a 'gotcha' that proves Marvel goes too hard on the discriminating against mutants angle, cuz see, it makes no sense that they'd treat them that differently or hate mutants that much when ultimately there is no real difference between any given X-Man and an Avenger who's superpowered due to a lab accident.

Its not a gotcha. The double standards very much exist, but they're not actually PROOF that Marvel's doing the mutant metaphor wrong and its unrealistic that there'd be this much bigotry towards mutants in specific, while other superhumans get a free pass and humans are fine with them.

Its actually proof that the mutant metaphor DOES have validity, no matter how imperfect it may be.

The double standards don't prove the bigotry is unrealistic.

The double standards ARE the bigotry in action.

[BobbysWorld]

Except I don't think anyone was meant to think that Vance "got what he deserved". The heroes of the series that the audience is meant to sympathize with certainly didn't. The narrative of the story didn't present it that way -- it was "look at this horrible thing that has happened to Vance, that he now has to live through". He was ALREADY a productive and upstanding member of society before he got sent to prison, and the story never tried to claim otherwise.

I get that you don't care for the story -- but it just feels like you are deliberately twisting and exaggerating what actually happened in order to make a point?

How am I twisting anything just because I have a different interpretation of what's on the page? The narrative of the story absolutely DID present it this way, I'm saying....because the writer literally introduced a scene where Angelica, Namorita and Nova bust Vance out of the prison transport and say that he was railroaded and they're not going to let this injustice stand....

And THEN the writer used Vance himself as the literal mouthpiece to validate the whole process and claim that the system worked as it should and again...no flaws detected!

I'd agree with you, that the writer had the story frame what happened to Vance as terrible and unjust and with other characters acknowledging that - WHICH THEY ABSOLUTELY DID -

If it weren't for the fact that the writer very deliberately used Vance's own character to then REFUTE those claims and quite literally say no....this was actually correct. This IS the system working properly.

Link to that panel below:

https://yourimageshare.com/ib/J6CkMVqOEM

[Chris0013]

Vance going to prison was the narrative the writer wanted...so the story has to fit that narrative....whether we as readers agree or not.

I would love to see a story that gives us the information on what Vance has been up to since his last major appearance. Maybe he graduated law school and works for Childwatch. As part of his jog he travels the country giving seminars to LE and prosecutors on threats to children...drugs, child trafficking, gang recruitment techniques, etc...

Also that he has conversation with them after the seminars that go from "what's Cap really like?" to "You wouldn't have been prosecuted in this jurisdiction." to " I see cases of too many supers thinking they are above the law. I respect that you didn't run. Right or wrong...you went on trial and accepted the verdict."

[danielsan52]

I'm going to start a Vance Appreciation thread I think... now that he's the topic of discussion in the X-books

[Chris0013]

I'm going to start a Vance Appreciation thread I think... now that he's the topic of discussion in the X-books

I think I did one a while ago...but no one showed their love.

https://community.cbr.com/showthread...vance+astrovik

[danielsan52]

I think I did one a while ago...but no one showed their love.

https://community.cbr.com/showthread...vance+astrovik

Great! Now we have one in both forums!

[Frontier]

This conversation is reminding me of Storm letting the Hell's Bells escape prison (for crimes they legitimately committed) when they claimed Mutant amnesty...

X-MEN UNLIMITED #112 preview

https://www.marvel.com/articles/comi...iew-first-look

I love how she had to do a dramatic swish of her hair just because.

(Probably would've been even better if her hair was still long).

[Chris0013]

I love how she had to do a dramatic swish of her hair just because.

(Probably would've been even better if her hair was still long).

And in animation.

[LordAllMIghty]

This is a perfect way to get Vance on a X-Team.

[Micabe]

This is a perfect way to get Vance on a X-Team.

Vance Astrovik is a decent character but does the X-Men really need yet another telekinetic in their ranks?

[Dermie]

How am I twisting anything just because I have a different interpretation of what's on the page?

Sorry, no offense intended. I just can't get behind the notion you are arguing that Fabian Niceiza was pushing a pro-prison propaganda with that storyline. Its just feels to me like you are going beyond criticizing the content of the story and attacking the intentions and motivations of the writer himself, and that is what I am having trouble accepting.

I think we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one.

[Nicoclaws]

The book is cool ! I'm actually wondering if Traveler is 'ot an actual mole !
I love the mentions of the different FoX series it's weird that Children doesn't get a mention, it feels disconnected from the rest of the narrative.

[Chris0013]

This comment by Angelica inspires a thought on what would be an epic ending to her undercover operation at the end of the story...or whenever.

Imagine it all comes to a head and to get out she goes full nuke detonation literally blowing the station in half and as it falls into the atmosphere she is in an epic one on one with either Nimrod or Omega Sentinel.

[Huntsman Spider]

The book is cool ! I'm actually wondering if Traveler is 'ot an actual mole !
I love the mentions of the different FoX series it's weird that Children doesn't get a mention, it feels disconnected from the rest of the narrative.

Mainly because Orchis is concentrating on eliminating mutants, even though the Children of the Vault competing quite handily with Orchis for the love, admiration, and trust of humanity is an issue Orchis should really address sooner rather than later.

This comment by Angelica inspires a thought on what would be an epic ending to her undercover operation at the end of the story...or whenever.

Imagine it all comes to a head and to get out she goes full nuke detonation literally blowing the station in half and as it falls into the atmosphere she is in an epic one on one with either Nimrod or Omega Sentinel.

That does sound pretty epic.