New Illuminati lineup Spoiler Thanos #1

[Gaastra]

Never was a fan of the Illuminati recon. Why is sub-mariner trying to kill reed in fantastic four than team up with him a day later on another team? So many things didn't make sense with past stories. Plus, not a fan of the "heroes doing bad things behind the scenes" recon.

Just was never a fan of it.

[dkrook]

Some good points here.

I've argued in other threads that even if the USA ended Blue Marvel's career in that country, I don't quite understand how that would prevent him from continuing to be a hero for the rest of the world, especially since his base of operations, Kadesh, is in international waters. Cynically, I think writers pen stories to the lowest IQ of its readership in order to make the logic of their narratives viable. But the more likely outcome of the US legally banning Blue Marvel would be that he would continue his humanitarian efforts around the world. After all, many of the greatest threats this fictional Earth has faced didn't observe borders. They came from all over the planet, and in many cases, off-world.

If we frame Blue Marvel's history in that light, then yes, he'd have a remarkable number of untold adventures and insights simply because he was probably the most powerful man on the entire planet for decades. Heck, if Marvel wants to give us an Illuminati book, why not bring us a series introducing a precursor for that group starring Blue Marvel, the Ancient One, Agatha Harkness, T'Chaka, Venus, the High Evolutionary and the Black Knight (the ghost of Sir Percy) or something like that? But I get it: that book wouldn't sell.

Although I still believe that Adam would absolutely refuse to join a cabal like the Illuminati, I guess I should be happy that he's appearing somewhere. They haven't quite relegated him to limbo just yet.

I would like to believe that Adam can see and understand the need for him to evolve his perspectives on how he can be impactful in this day and age. Maybe he now sees how joining a group like this allows for him to make moves he would've been hesitant to do in decades past. Narratively maybe Adam is considering the need act in a more grey area. My only concern is the prospect of nerfing Blue Marvel's intelligence and power. If he is hinted at as big brick dude, this a wash. Biased, incompetent writers have continued to be the only problem for characters on Blue Marvel and Sentry's level.

[marvelprince]

Some good points here.

I've argued in other threads that even if the USA ended Blue Marvel's career in that country, I don't quite understand how that would prevent him from continuing to be a hero for the rest of the world, especially since his base of operations, Kadesh, is in international waters. Cynically, I think writers pen stories to the lowest IQ of its readership in order to make the logic of their narratives viable. But the more likely outcome of the US legally banning Blue Marvel would be that he would continue his humanitarian efforts around the world. After all, many of the greatest threats this fictional Earth has faced didn't observe borders. They came from all over the planet, and in many cases, off-world.

If we frame Blue Marvel's history in that light, then yes, he'd have a remarkable number of untold adventures and insights simply because he was probably the most powerful man on the entire planet for decades. Heck, if Marvel wants to give us an Illuminati book, why not bring us a series introducing a precursor for that group starring Blue Marvel, the Ancient One, Agatha Harkness, T'Chaka, Venus, the High Evolutionary and the Black Knight (the ghost of Sir Percy) or something like that? But I get it: that book wouldn't sell.

Although I still believe that Adam would absolutely refuse to join a cabal like the Illuminati, I guess I should be happy that he's appearing somewhere. They haven't quite relegated him to limbo just yet.

Al Ewing retconned him retiring from hero life to him just retiring from public life by instead becoming a secret super scientist and going on adventures that saved the world / humanity / reality a ton of times that no one ever really knew about it. Was great stuff that honored the core of the character while also resolving that “how could he stand Aside as a hero” question.

[Sutekh]

Al Ewing retconned him retiring from hero life to him just retiring from public life by instead becoming a secret super scientist and going on adventures that saved the world / humanity / reality a ton of times that no one ever really knew about it. Was great stuff that honored the core of the character while also resolving that “how could he stand Aside as a hero” question.

Yeah, the problem with retcons about heroes retiring from one specific region to explain why they 'weren't seen before now' is that so many other nations would benefit from it, and the banning nation would seem like a craphole by comparison. Look what one resource, Vibranium, has done for Wakanda. Imagine the level of material benefit the work of Adam Brashear could provide to a nation that embraced him? It would mess with the 'world outside your door' that Marvel ever-so-weakly grasps at, if the US was some backwater pit of despair surrounded by a world of thriving healthy successful nations that *aren't* driving off their most potentially beneficial citizens.

The same sort of narrative falls apart with mutant registration nonsense. So what if the USA has a bunch of bigots in charge? Logically, the vast, vast, VAST majority of mutants (and therefore, the biggest number of Omega mutants) are going to be in China and India (both of which have four times our population), who don't have Orchis or Sentinels or Churches of Humanity. Back in the days of Alpha Flight, and even as far back as the original Contest of Champions, which introduced the Collective Man, it's been stated that China *actively recruits mutants* and doesn't persecute them (other than by drafting them into government service, which certainly wouldn't be the first choice for everyone...). If Marvel followed their own logic, there'd be at least four Chinese mutants born for every US mutant (not counting the many US mutants who don't survive, thanks to racist nutjobs blowing them up by the busload!), and they'd be much better positioned and trained and motivated, since their government *gives them a job* instead of sending purple robots to smash up their neighborhoods. Other countries could have Wakanda-levels of advantages over the US, due to their more welcoming stance to *their own citizens* who happen to be born mutants. All it takes is one Storm, and no more hurricanes. One Magma, and no more earthquakes. One Omega healer and no more pandemics. One Forge and a new scientific revolution happens and it's Wakanda-level tech-utopia *for everyone.* And if the US produces just *one* of these sorts of mutants, India should have *four.*

No wonder all the big disasters and events strike in the US! Most of the other countries don't drive off or kill their own superhuman resources!

[Tony Stark]

I would like to believe that Adam can see and understand the need for him to evolve his perspectives on how he can be impactful in this day and age. Maybe he now sees how joining a group like this allows for him to make moves he would've been hesitant to do in decades past. Narratively maybe Adam is considering the need act in a more grey area. My only concern is the prospect of nerfing Blue Marvel's intelligence and power. If he is hinted at as big brick dude, this a wash. Biased, incompetent writers have continued to be the only problem for characters on Blue Marvel and Sentry's level.

Exactly. Well stated. Black Panther was in a similar situation and changed his way of thinking.

[Frontier]

Exactly. Well stated. Black Panther was in a similar situation and changed his way of thinking.

Not that his Illuminati was much better.

[jackolover]

Yeah, the problem with retcons about heroes retiring from one specific region to explain why they 'weren't seen before now' is that so many other nations would benefit from it, and the banning nation would seem like a craphole by comparison. Look what one resource, Vibranium, has done for Wakanda. Imagine the level of material benefit the work of Adam Brashear could provide to a nation that embraced him? It would mess with the 'world outside your door' that Marvel ever-so-weakly grasps at, if the US was some backwater pit of despair surrounded by a world of thriving healthy successful nations that *aren't* driving off their most potentially beneficial citizens.

The same sort of narrative falls apart with mutant registration nonsense. So what if the USA has a bunch of bigots in charge? Logically, the vast, vast, VAST majority of mutants (and therefore, the biggest number of Omega mutants) are going to be in China and India (both of which have four times our population), who don't have Orchis or Sentinels or Churches of Humanity. Back in the days of Alpha Flight, and even as far back as the original Contest of Champions, which introduced the Collective Man, it's been stated that China *actively recruits mutants* and doesn't persecute them (other than by drafting them into government service, which certainly wouldn't be the first choice for everyone...). If Marvel followed their own logic, there'd be at least four Chinese mutants born for every US mutant (not counting the many US mutants who don't survive, thanks to racist nutjobs blowing them up by the busload!), and they'd be much better positioned and trained and motivated, since their government *gives them a job* instead of sending purple robots to smash up their neighborhoods. Other countries could have Wakanda-levels of advantages over the US, due to their more welcoming stance to *their own citizens* who happen to be born mutants. All it takes is one Storm, and no more hurricanes. One Magma, and no more earthquakes. One Omega healer and no more pandemics. One Forge and a new scientific revolution happens and it's Wakanda-level tech-utopia *for everyone.* And if the US produces just *one* of these sorts of mutants, India should have *four.*

No wonder all the big disasters and events strike in the US! Most of the other countries don't drive off or kill their own superhuman resources!

A nice perspective of the USA Marvel narrator, and how it only sees American perspective. I’ll have to ruminate on the points you brought up.

[Thor-Ul]

Yeah, the problem with retcons about heroes retiring from one specific region to explain why they 'weren't seen before now' is that so many other nations would benefit from it, and the banning nation would seem like a craphole by comparison. Look what one resource, Vibranium, has done for Wakanda. Imagine the level of material benefit the work of Adam Brashear could provide to a nation that embraced him? It would mess with the 'world outside your door' that Marvel ever-so-weakly grasps at, if the US was some backwater pit of despair surrounded by a world of thriving healthy successful nations that *aren't* driving off their most potentially beneficial citizens.

The same sort of narrative falls apart with mutant registration nonsense. So what if the USA has a bunch of bigots in charge? Logically, the vast, vast, VAST majority of mutants (and therefore, the biggest number of Omega mutants) are going to be in China and India (both of which have four times our population), who don't have Orchis or Sentinels or Churches of Humanity. Back in the days of Alpha Flight, and even as far back as the original Contest of Champions, which introduced the Collective Man, it's been stated that China *actively recruits mutants* and doesn't persecute them (other than by drafting them into government service, which certainly wouldn't be the first choice for everyone...). If Marvel followed their own logic, there'd be at least four Chinese mutants born for every US mutant (not counting the many US mutants who don't survive, thanks to racist nutjobs blowing them up by the busload!), and they'd be much better positioned and trained and motivated, since their government *gives them a job* instead of sending purple robots to smash up their neighborhoods. Other countries could have Wakanda-levels of advantages over the US, due to their more welcoming stance to *their own citizens* who happen to be born mutants. All it takes is one Storm, and no more hurricanes. One Magma, and no more earthquakes. One Omega healer and no more pandemics. One Forge and a new scientific revolution happens and it's Wakanda-level tech-utopia *for everyone.* And if the US produces just *one* of these sorts of mutants, India should have *four.*

No wonder all the big disasters and events strike in the US! Most of the other countries don't drive off or kill their own superhuman resources!

I know this trope. It is called "Reed Richards is useless" and exemplifies why superheroe narratives don't get along with real world problems to certain degree.

[Tony Stark]

Not that his Illuminati was much better.

Better that they were there than nobody being there. No one else stepped up and do the things they tried to do. Like I said even someone of T’CHALLA’s immense intellect saw this.

[marvelprince]

Exactly. Well stated. Black Panther was in a similar situation and changed his way of thinking.

One could argue it was him changing his way of thinking instead of holding onto his original morals is what lead to the mess of Times Runs Out and Secret Wars.

[marvelprince]

Yeah, the problem with retcons about heroes retiring from one specific region to explain why they 'weren't seen before now' is that so many other nations would benefit from it, and the banning nation would seem like a craphole by comparison. Look what one resource, Vibranium, has done for Wakanda. Imagine the level of material benefit the work of Adam Brashear could provide to a nation that embraced him? It would mess with the 'world outside your door' that Marvel ever-so-weakly grasps at, if the US was some backwater pit of despair surrounded by a world of thriving healthy successful nations that *aren't* driving off their most potentially beneficial citizens.

The same sort of narrative falls apart with mutant registration nonsense. So what if the USA has a bunch of bigots in charge? Logically, the vast, vast, VAST majority of mutants (and therefore, the biggest number of Omega mutants) are going to be in China and India (both of which have four times our population), who don't have Orchis or Sentinels or Churches of Humanity. Back in the days of Alpha Flight, and even as far back as the original Contest of Champions, which introduced the Collective Man, it's been stated that China *actively recruits mutants* and doesn't persecute them (other than by drafting them into government service, which certainly wouldn't be the first choice for everyone...). If Marvel followed their own logic, there'd be at least four Chinese mutants born for every US mutant (not counting the many US mutants who don't survive, thanks to racist nutjobs blowing them up by the busload!), and they'd be much better positioned and trained and motivated, since their government *gives them a job* instead of sending purple robots to smash up their neighborhoods. Other countries could have Wakanda-levels of advantages over the US, due to their more welcoming stance to *their own citizens* who happen to be born mutants. All it takes is one Storm, and no more hurricanes. One Magma, and no more earthquakes. One Omega healer and no more pandemics. One Forge and a new scientific revolution happens and it's Wakanda-level tech-utopia *for everyone.* And if the US produces just *one* of these sorts of mutants, India should have *four.*

No wonder all the big disasters and events strike in the US! Most of the other countries don't drive off or kill their own superhuman resources!

I get this and usually its it bothers me too but Ewing did a good job showing the choice Adam made while not necessarily saying it was the correct one. Cause he is questioned about it and his absence previously was a reason he chose to do more now. I think Adam works a little better than most in this context cause you can understand why he might have felt jaded, but while it changed how he interacted with the world he never stopped being a hero.

[The Cool Thatguy]

The original Illuminati might have worked if it was written and executed by anyone other than Bendis.

He wants the credit for ideas, but not the work.

How did Tony avoid larger repercussions for Armor Wars? Illuminati!

How does Strange avoid property taxes? Illuminati!

How does the government not have their own cerebro? Illuminati!

[Tony Stark]

The original Illuminati might have worked if it was written and executed by anyone other than Bendis.

He wants the credit for ideas, but not the work.

How did Tony avoid larger repercussions for Armor Wars? Illuminati!

How does Strange avoid property taxes? Illuminati!

How does the government not have their own cerebro? Illuminati!

Great ideas. I like where your head is at.

[marvelprince]

The original Illuminati might have worked if it was written and executed by anyone other than Bendis.

He wants the credit for ideas, but not the work.

How did Tony avoid larger repercussions for Armor Wars? Illuminati!

How does Strange avoid property taxes? Illuminati!

How does the government not have their own cerebro? Illuminati!

I definitely think Hickman did nailed this concept even if it wasn’t his creation.

[lordozone]

I definitely think Hickman did nailed this concept even if it wasn’t his creation.

Yeah Hickman understand what work in the Illuminati (but his continuity was a mess)