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  1. #16
    Invincible Member numberthirty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Totoro Man View Post
    ...

    some people believe that offering benefits is a type of anti-union activity... I guess the argument is that anything short of paying people more money is something that benefits the company rather than the worker.

    one of my favorite high school history teachers argued against the rest of his peers by suggesting LOWER hourly wages and increased medical benefits and 401k contributions. he suggested this after he did the math and figured out that they would have lower tax rates with smaller income and better take-home pay afterwards. he also argued that the 401k would generate more wealth in the long run because of accumulating interest. he lamented that nearly all of his younger coworkers shot down the idea. since he was middle-aged and all of his kids had moved out of the house - he came up with a plan that was most beneficial for empty nesters like himself (his wife had chronic medical problems). just because it was the perfect solution for him doesn't mean other people saw it the same way!
    Whole other thread...

    There is no telling exactly how much more American workers could make if they did not have "For Profit..." health insurance in the equation like a leech sucking money out of worker's collective pocket.

  2. #17
    Boisterously Confused
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    To the OP, no, it's not abandoned.

    "For what are we working" has become a question that won't wait for an answer in these times. If people don't have (or aren't provided) an answer, they'll right-size their efforts to arbitrary estimates.

  3. #18
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    personally, I don't think kingaliencracker's age makes a difference. I think they're talking about an attitude towards work that isn't specific to any era.

    I remember 20 years doing a catering event that got enveloped by a thunderstorm and my old Native American coworker laughed and said, "well, this is just awful. but if you hate getting rained on you can always quit and find another job. one great thing about this country is if you hate your job you can just quit and walk away. nobody holds it against you (except your boss, maybe). there are some places where you can't do that. when they sent me to Vietnam there was nowhere for me to go without getting court-martialed, shot, court-martialed and shot, and so on. a little rain won't kill me... and I'm still getting paid." He preferred the stability of knowing where his next paycheck was coming from over the 'indignity' of getting rained out at a catering event.

    I agree with the "you can love your job, but it will never love you back" statement.

    too many young people seem to be looking for a "vocation"; a job that they feel drawn towards and inspires them. I've always focused on just having a job. it's not like scrubbing dirty floors in canneries was my lifelong passion!

    for everybody that complains about going to college, getting in debt, and getting stuck with a "pointless job"... the POINT of your job is so that you can pay for food, water, and shelter. you do NOT have to love your job. it doesn't have to give you a sense of meaning or purpose. if you don't hate it, and it helps you pay your bills... that's all you need. if your job doesn't pay enough - then find something better or start another part time job.

    I know a number of people who probably make over 10-times as much money as I do while running their businesses. many of our customers make hundreds of thousands of dollars a year... several of them are probably millionaires. one of them told me that there was a 500 day stretch of his life where he did something connected to work every day without ever taking a vacation. he said that's one of the trade-offs of running the operation. before he took over the company he got more time off. so, it's not just the lowly workers that feel like they have to work themselves into the ground. I wouldn't want to think about work for 500 days in a row... but, conversely, if he wants to take his family to visit another country for a graduation celebration... he's got that option. (you take the good with the bad in life no matter what your income is. hard as this may be for some to believe, poor people don't have a monopoly on pain and suffering)

    then again, I've always seen the world as inherently indifferent, if not cruel, and filled with an ineradicable inequality. we can wring our hands and complain as much as we like... inequality is NEVER going away. it might take a bit of a "power nap"... but then it will wake up with a vengeance.

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by kingaliencracker View Post
    That's an extreme viewpoint in response to what I said, friend. Nowhere in my post did I advocate "slavery" or "indentured servitude". But it's ironic you equate what I said to that.
    It was a joke, obviously.

    As far as the OP question goes, well, there is that old TV show, "Dirty Jobs", which sort of proves that hard (and dirty) work is not a thing of the past, you just have to look. Good show, BTW, makes you appreciate what you've got.
    Last edited by achilles; 11-14-2023 at 04:47 AM.

  5. #20
    insulin4all CaptCleghorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Totoro Man View Post
    personally, I don't think kingaliencracker's age makes a difference. I think they're talking about an attitude towards work that isn't specific to any era.
    A title including the "thing of the past" modifier certainly seems to be addressing shifts over time.

    As for me, I had a friend back in the 80s who was a professional IT guy. He was of the belief (which was common at the time) to periodically search other jobs to see what's out there.
    My belief is that people haven't changed, but the tech and ways of examining the job market and being able to compare companies and positions allows workers a wider, more educated selection.
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  6. #21
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    I think I'd argue that in the current climate, the American workforce (the only one I feel even remotely qualified to comment on) is aware of the inadequacies of the system in rewarding proportionately rewarding any work ethic above "competent" - that while having a solid work ethic and putting in energy is necessary for a job and a virtue, our society overhyped and deceived us about the financial benefits of workaholism in the *current* economic landscape, while downplaying the personal cost of them on our mental health, physical health, and even our future financial prospects.

    There may have been periods of time where work ethic directly correlated to the amount of money one could get out of a job - but those moments are rare, and more the output of other factors creating an opportunity. And in modern times, most people have seen hard work ethic be ignored by either those with better networking, harsh economic realities, or by glory-stealing CEOs.

    A good work ethic is still a virtue... but a "good" work ethic is more than just dedication to the job, and should flexibly adapt to the current environment.

    Right now, it might be better to be more determined to take union action and apply a work ethic towards ripping back a share of the profits from management in many industries than in just trying to impress MBAs who only pay attention to a spread sheets and rig contracts to just give them money even if they suck at their jobs.
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  7. #22
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    Whining about the younger generation not being as good as your generation is just a trope of getting old.

  8. #23
    Returning member JT221's Avatar
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    Question to the OP: Do you mean working hard or do you mean work ethic? I think there is a difference in those two things.
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  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by shooshoomanjoe View Post
    Whining about the younger generation not being as good as your generation is just a trope of getting old.
    true... but it doesn't exist in isolation.

    when Phil Collins sang "my generation will put it right" in 1986, he was expressing this preposterous notion that HIS generation will rescue the future from past incompetence and wickedness (his generation would transcend the limits and wickedness of his parents and grandparents generations)

    a similar contempt for prior generations can be found in words "hope I die before I get old" by the Who's "My Generation".

    just look at Greta Thunberg and her public statements...

    for every "get off my lawn" old fogey there are even more "young" people thinking that they're going to change the world for the better by NOT being like their parents or grandparents.

    I remember this from my high school days... and, in most cases, I found myself thinking "I've met your parents and grandparents.... and you're not even a tiny bit better than them! you just haven't lived long enough to make as many mistakes as they have."

    it's easier to notice how dumb and lazy young people are... because it's more difficult to remember how dumb and lazy we were in the past.

  10. #25
    Astonishing Member kingaliencracker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by numberthirty View Post
    Yeah, work should have to take a step towards workers.

    Serious question...

    When you were "Younger..."

    Roughly how many years are we talking?
    26 years ago.

  11. #26
    Astonishing Member kingaliencracker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shooshoomanjoe View Post
    Whining about the younger generation not being as good as your generation is just a trope of getting old.
    I can agree with that. I'm sure when I started out professionally those who had been in the workforce much longer than me were undoubtedly annoyed by some of my habits.

  12. #27
    DC/Collected Editions Mod The Darknight Detective's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Totoro Man View Post
    for every "get off my lawn" old fogey there are even more "young" people thinking that they're going to change the world for the better by NOT being like their parents or grandparents.
    Heh. I can remember as a teen thinking it was idiotic someone my age knew more about life than my parents and grandparents, while finding out at the same time that every generation thinks the younger ones are not like they were (the funniest are old sports stars saying the same damn nonsense today that Cap Anson and Al Spalding were saying about the young pups of the 1890s).
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  13. #28
    insulin4all CaptCleghorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Darknight Detective View Post
    Heh. I can remember as a teen thinking it was idiotic someone my age knew more about life than my parents and grandparents, while finding out at the same time that every generation thinks the younger ones are not like they were (the funniest are old sports stars saying the same damn nonsense today that Cap Anson and Al Spalding were saying about the young pups of the 1890s).
    Socrates had a quote about youth. The older generation has been complaining about those damn kids for thousands of years. Neanderthals used to complain about those damn Cro Magnons and tell them to get outta their caves.
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  14. #29
    DC/Collected Editions Mod The Darknight Detective's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptCleghorn View Post
    Socrates had a quote about youth. The older generation has been complaining about those damn kids for thousands of years. Neanderthals used to complain about those damn Cro Magnons and tell them to get outta their caves.
    I believe it!
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  15. #30
    Loony Scott Taylor's Avatar
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    A lot of the changes in work expectations is just technology changing the workplace. Workers can be free to be more absent from a physical office if they are available through a few clicks of a button. And the workplace changes, like offering catering or in-house recreation opportunities, well those are discriminators for an employer. The places that offer all those perks are generally highly sought after job locations like Square, Google or Apple. The employees competing for these jobs definitely expect to work very hard.

    In fact, I would say people are working harder than ever now with longer hours. The connectedness we have now allows employees to work effectively all times of day and night, remotely or non-remotely. There are more breaks and "downtime" sure, but in some ways it can be like you are always at work.
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