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  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Totoro Man View Post
    true... but it doesn't exist in isolation.

    when Phil Collins sang "my generation will put it right" in 1986, he was expressing this preposterous notion that HIS generation will rescue the future from past incompetence and wickedness (his generation would transcend the limits and wickedness of his parents and grandparents generations)

    a similar contempt for prior generations can be found in words "hope I die before I get old" by the Who's "My Generation".

    just look at Greta Thunberg and her public statements...

    for every "get off my lawn" old fogey there are even more "young" people thinking that they're going to change the world for the better by NOT being like their parents or grandparents.

    I remember this from my high school days... and, in most cases, I found myself thinking "I've met your parents and grandparents.... and you're not even a tiny bit better than them! you just haven't lived long enough to make as many mistakes as they have."

    it's easier to notice how dumb and lazy young people are... because it's more difficult to remember how dumb and lazy we were in the past.
    What, the bit where Thunberg reveals she's a fan of Hamas?

  2. #32
    Astonishing Member CaptainEurope's Avatar
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    Burnout numbers are on the rise. If you think people aren't working hard, you're delusional.

    Let's face it: The 40 hour work week is based on the outdated and sexist idea of having a stay-at-home wife. Working 40 hours and then having to deal with kids, housework, bills, elderly parents etc is not healhty.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by achilles View Post
    What, the bit where Thunberg reveals she's a fan of Hamas?
    LOL, no... it's more along the lines of this:

    "we showed that we are united and that we, young people, are unstoppable."
    "you say that you love your children above all else and yet you are stealing their very future right before their eyes"
    "the eyes of all future generations are upon you. and if you choose to fail us we will never forgive you."

    I was also thinking of the tweet: “A top climate scientist is warning that climate change will wipe out humanity unless we stop using fossil fuels over the next five years.”

    some people, I would say not unreasonably, made fun of her for the world not ending. of course, technically, she didn't SAY that the world would end several months ago. but the implication is that we've already crossed the point of no return and that we could be on an unreversible voyage towards climate change destruction.

    I think of Greta Thunberg reminds me of Hal Lindsey's "The Late Great Planet Earth" and Paul Ehrlich's "The Population Bomb". both of these guys were predicting the end of the world in these truly outlandish terms... and the world is still here! overpopulation presents a very real problem. human activity has led to climate change. but I'm not entirely sure that these are behaviors that can be stopped without effectively repealing the Industrial Revolution... which, let's face it, NOBODY wants to do.

    [off topic speculation]
    I haven't kept up with any of Thunberg's responses towards Hamas. my opinion of Hamas is somewhat biased by interacting with Christians who were exiled from the region... so, my general takeaway is that if Israeli government represents the dirty and corrupt cops of Los Angeles... Hamas would be like the Crips or the Bloods. yes, depending on WHO you are and how they treat you... ONE of these groups might look better than the other. however, in the grand scheme of things, they're both pretty awful. I'm convinced that Hamas KNEW that Israeli retaliation efforts to hunt them down would lead to thousands of people getting killed. I believe that Hamas was gambling that this would strengthen their numbers and help them prepare for larger operations in the future. of course, if things have gotten so ugly that Iran is having second thoughts about supporting them... they could end up like the Greek Communists after Stalin refused to openly support them... Hamas my well rot on the vine for the next few years... only to get replaced by something else.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainEurope View Post
    Burnout numbers are on the rise. If you think people aren't working hard, you're delusional.

    Let's face it: The 40 hour work week is based on the outdated and sexist idea of having a stay-at-home wife. Working 40 hours and then having to deal with kids, housework, bills, elderly parents etc is not healhty.
    no. the 40-hour work week was based on not working six or seven days a week all-year-round. it was also based on not working more than 8 hours a day.

    we don't need to call it outdated or sexist in order to consider other options.

    I fail to understand how 40 hours is too much under normal circumstances. now, if you're taking care of elderly parents and children at the same time... obviously that would be a lot of stress. but that would not be the normal situation for most people.

    it seems like you want to destroy a cultural norm that, by and large, has been effective for MOST people across numerous societies over the last century.

    a lot of human history had every member of the family working every day of the week to varying degrees. for much of human history people were not expected to leave their parents and live on their own; there was a level of interdependence that was fairly normal.

    people are expected to have a much higher level of economic and social independence now than at any prior point in human history.

    this is why many people have found ways to bring the extended family back as an economic and social coping mechanism.

  5. #35
    Invincible Member numberthirty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainEurope View Post
    Burnout numbers are on the rise. If you think people aren't working hard, you're delusional.

    Let's face it: The 40 hour work week is based on the outdated and sexist idea of having a stay-at-home wife. Working 40 hours and then having to deal with kids, housework, bills, elderly parents etc is not healhty.
    Not really...

    https://firmspace.com/theproworker/f...5-day-workweek

    From strikes to labor laws: How the US adopted the 5-day workweek

  6. #36
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    since we're talking about hard work... recently I've been reading about migrant workers, criminal trends, and police corruption in China.

    look at the migrant worker scenario in China. the government will grant licenses to people to cross provincial lines, leave their rural towns of birth, and make money working in large cities.

    China has a crisis right now because more and more people have decided that they'd rather work in their hometowns. some of these reasons include... being ostracized as an outsider in large cities. as a non-resident living in cities they're more likely to be targeted by both criminals and police. for example: if a young female migrant worker is raped, she will almost certainly not report it to the police for fear of reprisals. likewise, if a young man has his things stolen, he feels powerless to appeal to local authorities. they also suffered from a higher proportion of being quarantined because of COVID-19. in a post-COVID scenario a lot of Chinese rural citizens realized that it's simply not economically advantageous to work in the big cities anymore.

    China refuses to bring in immigrants to fill in that gap for a variety of reasons. they've found themselves with an imploding labor market in many major cities... because many people have figured out that the problems far outweigh the benefits. it's not necessarily about people refusing to work hard - it's that the economic incentives are not as compelling as they once were.

    a lot of young men were motivated to go to big cities to get a better paying job, save money, and get married. now that men outnumber women by a factor of roughly 5 men for every woman... unless a young man is educated and makes a lot of money (extremely unlikely for migrant workers) then the chances of him finding a romantic partner are very low. women, by cultural tradition and arguably natural inclination, tend to marry men of higher social status and wealth... which means young male migrant workers in China are left completely high and dry in pretty much every way that counts.

    it's not a whole lot better for women because migrant works are more likely to get abducted, sold into prostitution and slavery. (this also happens to children of both genders)

    yes, things in Europe and North America feel pretty tough right now... but, things are tough all over.

  7. #37
    Astonishing Member CaptainEurope's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by numberthirty View Post
    So the 44/40 hour work week passed in 1938.
    What percentage of women was working back then, compared to now?

    In 1940, only 28 percent of women were working
    2019, it was 55%.

    So how did your link correct what I said in any way?

  8. #38
    DC/Collected Editions Mod The Darknight Detective's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Totoro Man View Post
    LOL, no... it's more along the lines of this:

    "we showed that we are united and that we, young people, are unstoppable."
    "you say that you love your children above all else and yet you are stealing their very future right before their eyes"
    "the eyes of all future generations are upon you. and if you choose to fail us we will never forgive you."

    I was also thinking of the tweet: “A top climate scientist is warning that climate change will wipe out humanity unless we stop using fossil fuels over the next five years.”

    some people, I would say not unreasonably, made fun of her for the world not ending. of course, technically, she didn't SAY that the world would end several months ago. but the implication is that we've already crossed the point of no return and that we could be on an unreversible voyage towards climate change destruction.

    I think of Greta Thunberg reminds me of Hal Lindsey's "The Late Great Planet Earth" and Paul Ehrlich's "The Population Bomb". both of these guys were predicting the end of the world in these truly outlandish terms... and the world is still here! overpopulation presents a very real problem. human activity has led to climate change. but I'm not entirely sure that these are behaviors that can be stopped without effectively repealing the Industrial Revolution... which, let's face it, NOBODY wants to do.
    The big problem I had with her ascension was that she was being propped up because she was a kid. Why? Because it's much, much, much tougher to criticize or ridicule a child than an adult. She never would have had the same impact if she had started her advocacy now than when she originally did. That's why I tune out any juvenile advocate, regardles if his or her position, because I feel like I'm being played.
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  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainEurope View Post
    So the 44/40 hour work week passed in 1938.
    What percentage of women was working back then, compared to now?



    2019, it was 55%.

    So how did your link correct what I said in any way?
    you did not provide ANY evidence as to why the 40-hour work week became the norm. you dismissed it as an outdated and sexist concept based on the concept of having a stay-at-home wife. this ASSUMES that wives made no economic contribution to the household. which, honestly, seems even more sexist.

    read the article again.

    "A strike among textile workers in Lawrence, Massachusetts, in 1912—which developed when mill owners reacted to a new law that reduced the working hours and pay for women mill employees—was something of an archetype for the Paterson Silk Strike a year later."

    did you not notice the part about women? how can they be stay-at-home moms if they're working at textile factories?

  10. #40
    Astonishing Member CaptainEurope's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Totoro Man View Post
    you did not provide ANY evidence as to why the 40-hour work week became the norm. you dismissed it as an outdated and sexist concept based on the concept of having a stay-at-home wife. this ASSUMES that wives made no economic contribution to the household. which, honestly, seems even more sexist.

    read the article again.

    "A strike among textile workers in Lawrence, Massachusetts, in 1912—which developed when mill owners reacted to a new law that reduced the working hours and pay for women mill employees—was something of an archetype for the Paterson Silk Strike a year later."

    did you not notice the part about women? how can they be stay-at-home moms if they're working at textile factories?
    The entire background of when this was done was when about half as many women were working. That was the reality when they went on strike saying they wanted to work 40 hours.

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Darknight Detective View Post
    The big problem I had with her ascension was that she was being propped up because she was a kid. Why? Because it's much, much, much tougher to criticize or ridicule a child than an adult. She never would have had the same impact if she had started her advocacy now than when she originally did. That's why I tune out any juvenile advocate, regardles if his or her position, because I feel like I'm being played.
    I remember as a kid we would visit San Francisco and there would literally be occasional guys with placards around their bodies announcing the end of the world being near. Complete obvious whackadoodles, and it was obvious that you don't take them seriously. But when you are college age or lower you can get away with it basically as a legacy of the 1960s and events like Kent State and Woodstock being engraved into American culture.
    Every day is a gift, not a given right.

  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Taylor View Post
    I remember as a kid we would visit San Francisco and there would literally be occasional guys with placards around their bodies announcing the end of the world being near. Complete obvious whackadoodles, and it was obvious that you don't take them seriously. But when you are college age or lower you can get away with it basically as a legacy of the 1960s and events like Kent State and Woodstock being engraved into American culture.
    Yeah, "don't trust anyone over 30" came from that generation and was still vocalized during the '70s when I was a kid. I have never understood ignorance being an asset, but what do I know?
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  13. #43

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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainEurope View Post
    Burnout numbers are on the rise. If you think people aren't working hard, you're delusional.

    Let's face it: The 40 hour work week is based on the outdated and sexist idea of having a stay-at-home wife. Working 40 hours and then having to deal with kids, housework, bills, elderly parents etc is not healhty.
    It was common for women of poor background to work in the past, even when the hours were much longer.

    After WW2, American economy was strong enough that people could afford to have a large part of half of the population not working, but it was not the case everywhere. In the eastern block during socialism, staying home was not an option, every person, including women, had to be employed and the week was also 40 hours. (Not that everyone was actually working all the time, there was a lot of slacking and day-drinking on the job so the economy did not profit from the larger workforce, but my point is, the hours were not related to sexism.)
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  14. #44
    Ultimate Member Mister Mets's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Totoro Man View Post
    no. the 40-hour work week was based on not working six or seven days a week all-year-round. it was also based on not working more than 8 hours a day.

    we don't need to call it outdated or sexist in order to consider other options.

    I fail to understand how 40 hours is too much under normal circumstances. now, if you're taking care of elderly parents and children at the same time... obviously that would be a lot of stress. but that would not be the normal situation for most people.

    it seems like you want to destroy a cultural norm that, by and large, has been effective for MOST people across numerous societies over the last century.

    a lot of human history had every member of the family working every day of the week to varying degrees. for much of human history people were not expected to leave their parents and live on their own; there was a level of interdependence that was fairly normal.

    people are expected to have a much higher level of economic and social independence now than at any prior point in human history.

    this is why many people have found ways to bring the extended family back as an economic and social coping mechanism.
    Yeah, the 40 hour workweek was much better than what came before.

    Someone can easily argue that in the modern era, humans are productive enough that different norms are called for. Most humans lived in extreme poverty, and we shouldn't romanticize the past and I agree with you that we shouldn't romanticize the past.
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  15. #45
    Astonishing Member CaptainEurope's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Catlady in training View Post
    It was common for women of poor background to work in the past, even when the hours were much longer.

    After WW2, American economy was strong enough that people could afford to have a large part of half of the population not working, but it was not the case everywhere. In the eastern block during socialism, staying home was not an option, every person, including women, had to be employed and the week was also 40 hours. (Not that everyone was actually working all the time, there was a lot of slacking and day-drinking on the job so the economy did not profit from the larger workforce, but my point is, the hours were not related to sexism.)
    Women in America, especially married women, did not really start working in large numbers until the men fought in WW II and somebody had to keep the country going. Then you had the whole "Rosie the Riveter" thing, but when the men came back they expected women to stay at home again and cook and clean for them. The statistics are all online.

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