Jean Grey #4 (2023) Review *spoilers*

[Mercury]

When I use the term regression about "Jean is not Phoenix", I mean it very literally and from several different respects, including regression in power, regression in character development, regression in attitude (perhaps the worst bit of it there), and all done in service of regressive views on women and for a regressive comic book ship. Loss of Phoenix means going backwards in a lot of ways.

This era debuting with Jean being infantile and helpless on missions and using her powers to do the dishes in her dish gloves will be funny to make fun of forever. That's in no small part because, being very staunchly pro-bird, it's hard to think her Phoenix identity would have inspired that writer to set that kind of tone for the character's presence.

That kind of thinking has eased a bit, especially since that writer in particular has gone, and it would be nice to have her fully restored to her basic Phoenix identity. Not even WPotC, as that is an endgame situation, but just her normal, everyday Phoenix self. She lost that for a time just so we could have what? AVX, a random change to Thor's origin that nobody asked for, goofy fake not true to the characters Brady Bunch on the moon and, what, Rookshir the Phoenix sword dude? All net losses lol.

She should have had her bird back a long time ago.

While you definitely make some valid points regarding the stultification and repeated regression of Jean—and by proxy other female characters—due primarily to misogynistic impulses, you fail to acknowledge the cyclical nature of both comic books and the development of comic book characters. Many characters are repeatedly and continuously built up and torn down only to be built up and torn down again. After all, comic books thrive on making characters relive variations of what Joseph Campbell called “the hero’s journey” to facilitate the discovery and interest in these characters by new readers. In other words, this cycle doesn't so much indicate a disinterest in or disrespect for these characters as much as a focus on maintaining the conflict-growth-devolution-transcendence paradigm for both the sake of generating MORE interest and, of course, profit. Logically, the same applies to Jean. Rather than doubt or bemoan her past and future developments and what may or may not happen, maybe just enjoy the moment and the ride?

[PhoenixStudies]

I also felt like Phoenix Resurrection was a regression. There had been a slow burn of Jean coming to embrace her Phoenix identity through Seagle's run (even before such as when she took the codename back) to Claremont's Revolution run, to her fully embracing her Phoenix destiny in Morrison's run.

It was upsetting to see her disavow her destiny as soon as she returned to life. Of course being Phoenix can be a heavy burden, but I didn't see Jean passing it along for someone else to deal with. And I didn't think she would pass up the opportunity to resurrect Scott or her family like she did. It was also odd because they had differentiated Teen Jean from Adult Jean by having Teen Jean run away from the Phoenix while Adult Jean had embraced the Phoenix. They had just showcased the good side of Phoenix in Generations: Phoenix and Jean Grey.

Phoenix Resurrection felt like such a gut punch at the time.

However, now that Jean is embracing her Phoenix power and destiny, I can appreciate Phoenix Resurrection for the quirky horror story that it was. And I do understand some of what Rosenberg was trying to say. It has to be hard to be in a cycle of death and rebirth (although the Krakoa era with the resurrection protocols made that point moot). Also, there has always been a part of Jean that struggled with having a predestined cosmic destiny and part of Jean has always tried to anchor herself in her humanity. Even Claremont's Jean had this aspect to her.

I know Mercury is right that characters are often deconstructed to be built back up. I remember Morrison being accused of regressing Jean at the beginning of his run.

I also think the back and forth is what annoys some fans. I hope they let her keep the codename and imagery (at least pink raptor) even if she doesn't stay in fiery cosmic mode for a long time or full time. That way the change won't be as jarring.

The Phoenix has been such a significant part of the character since the mid 70s. Like many Jean fans, what I care most about her Phoenix mythos, is that her place in it is respected.

I also think some fans view her transformation into Phoenix as suspect because she existed as Marvel Girl before she became Phoenix. I've long noticed that Jean has a lot of lgbtq fans and I think we are more accepting of transformation as legitimate and as being a part of one's true self because we go through transformations (coming out or transitioning) into our true selves. We identify with her transformation. Some of us may identify with her struggles over her identity as well.

[Kitty&Piotr<3]

While you definitely make some valid points regarding the stultification and repeated regression of Jean—and by proxy other female characters—due primarily to misogynistic impulses, you fail to acknowledge the cyclical nature of both comic books and the development of comic book characters. Many characters are repeatedly and continuously built up and torn down only to be built up and torn down again. After all, comic books thrive on making characters relive variations of what Joseph Campbell called “the hero’s journey” to facilitate the discovery and interest in these characters by new readers. In other words, this cycle doesn't so much indicate a disinterest in or disrespect for these characters as much as a focus on maintaining the conflict-growth-devolution-transcendence paradigm for both the sake of generating MORE interest and, of course, profit. Logically, the same applies to Jean. Rather than doubt or bemoan her past and future developments and what may or may not happen, maybe just enjoy the moment and the ride?

Comics are cyclical, but typically, new wrinkles are thrown in to ultimately edify and eventually get the character back to their rightful place. Especially with popular-brand characters, it's usually not to erase or erode the dignity of their iconography. There have been times when Bruce Wayne isn't his most confident Batman self or not Batman at all. When that happens, it's because there's a plan to restore him and then shine a light on what he will do next to go to new heights after being down.

That's not what happens with Jean, is it? They just...ignore what's happened with her mostly, outside of dying on the moon.

I will say, it's interesting to get a White Hot Room mention in current canon. It will be interesting to see whether this story plays Jean up or plays her down.

[Kitty&Piotr<3]

The thing about a cycle of death and rebirth being difficult or it being a chore or it being something that Jean doesn't always necessarily enjoy at every moment is that, for me thinking in terms of character and narrative, it is extremely extremely extremely good that she has this overarching responsibility that she had to deal with. That's part of being a hero. It shouldn't be just playing in a tree house and lagoon parties and cocktail dresses and pretending that your brother isn't running a black force operation that you should be monitoring. Some people want her doing nothing but writing saccharine Hallmark cards, but she's a superhero, not a kindergarten teacher. Heck, when the best Jean writers are firing on all cylinders, she's a headmistress/superhero/activist/diplomat/space-god playing hooky as a human. Her stories should reflect that complexity and show that sense of duty in her, in my opinion. She should be responsible for a lot. She doesn't have time to be carefree and human and happy, and that's not how narratives happen, anyway.

Keep her burdened with the Phoenix and a whole lot more than the Phoenix.

[Mercury]

Comics are cyclical, but typically, new wrinkles are thrown in to ultimately edify and eventually get the character back to their rightful place. Especially with popular-brand characters, it's usually not to erase or erode the dignity of their iconography. There have been times when Bruce Wayne isn't his most confident Batman self or not Batman at all. When that happens, it's because there's a plan to restore him and then shine a light on what he will do next to go to new heights after being down.

That's not what happens with Jean, is it? They just...ignore what's happened with her mostly, outside of dying on the moon.

I will say, it's interesting to get a White Hot Room mention in current canon. It will be interesting to see whether this story plays Jean up or plays her down.

Again, you've made valid points. And again, you've chosen to ignore what Duggan, Gillen, and Simonson have done with Jean, specifically in regards to her power and iconography as Phoenix. You hone in on turns of phrase that seemingly contradict her identity as Phoenix, such as when Duggan had her refer to Phoenix in third-person tense—despite the fact that she has valid in-story and in-character reasons to do so—while stubbornly ignoring when aspects of her aforementioned identity, such as her evolution into and identity as White Phoenix, are confirmed and validated, as Marvel did last month! And you do this because you are adamant that the only satisfying status quo for Jean sees her roaring “I am Phoenix!” literally and figuratively every other story she’s featured in, which, ironically, would truly make her predictable and one-dimensional.

Ultimately, it's the push and pull of Jean’s relationship to Phoenix—to herself—that makes her such a gripping and compelling character. Her flaws and strengths, her contradictions and “multitudes” are what make her so grand, iconic, and timeless. To paraphrase @PhoenixStudies, it's Jean’s continuous transformations and struggles with her identity that are so thrilling and comforting to me. I love that she doesn't boast about or even yet fully accept how powerful and transcendent she is because, really, it makes her everrmore powerful and transcendent. One last thing: Marvel authorized, published, and tweeted this last month, and you haven't said a thing about it, even though you've been pretty adamant, including as recently as a month or two ago, that “White Phoenix isn't canon.”. Food for thought.

[Mercury]

The thing about a cycle of death and rebirth being difficult or it being a chore or it being something that Jean doesn't always necessarily enjoy at every moment is that, for me thinking in terms of character and narrative, it is extremely extremely extremely good that she has this overarching responsibility that she had to deal with. That's part of being a hero. It shouldn't be just playing in a tree house and lagoon parties and cocktail dresses and pretending that your brother isn't running a black force operation that you should be monitoring. Some people want her doing nothing but writing saccharine Hallmark cards, but she's a superhero, not a kindergarten teacher. Heck, when the best Jean writers are firing on all cylinders, she's a headmistress/superhero/activist/diplomat/space-god playing hooky as a human. Her stories should reflect that complexity and show that sense of duty in her, in my opinion. She should be responsible for a lot. She doesn't have time to be carefree and human and happy, and that's not how narratives happen, anyway.

Keep her burdened with the Phoenix and a whole lot more than the Phoenix.

Okay, I love most of this. But I also love when she's a “Care Bear.” Frankly, most of us—most of the world at large could afford being a little more Care Bearish.

[Kitty&Piotr<3]

Again, you've made valid points. And again, you've chosen to ignore what Duggan, Gillen, and Simonson have done with Jean, specifically in regards to her power and iconography as Phoenix. You hone in on turns of phrase that seemingly contradict her identity as Phoenix, such as when Duggan had her refer to Phoenix in third-person tense—despite the fact that she has valid in-story and in-character reasons to do so—while stubbornly ignoring when aspects of her aforementioned identity, such as her evolution into and identity as White Phoenix, are confirmed and validated, as Marvel did last month! And you do this because you are adamant that the only satisfying status quo for Jean sees her roaring “I am Phoenix!” literally and figuratively every other story she’s featured in, which, ironically, would truly make her predictable and one-dimensional.

Ultimately, it's the push and pull of Jean’s relationship to Phoenix—to herself—that makes her such a gripping and compelling character. Her flaws and strengths, her contradictions and “multitudes” are what make her so grand, iconic, and timeless. To paraphrase @PhoenixStudies, it's Jean’s continuous transformations and struggles with her identity that are so thrilling and comforting to me. I love that she doesn't boast about or even yet fully accept how powerful and transcendent she is because, really, it makes her everrmore powerful and transcendent. One last thing: Marvel authorized, published, and tweeted this last month, and you haven't said a thing about it, even though you've been pretty adamant, including as recently as a month or two ago, that “White Phoenix isn't canon.”. Food for thought.

Having her refer to the Phoenix stories as something someone else did isn't complex. It just contradicts what cooler, more edifying, and more satisfying stories said. Saying that she can't acknowledge she is Phoenix without mentioning it every other story is gaslighting.

Tweets and marvel.com articles are written by pretty much interns or that social media dude who does the This Is Marvel videos for the social accounts. They don't dictate canon.

That's a huge question with Jean appearing on the same page as a WHR mention: will the WPotC be re-canonized? Right now she doesn't even know what the WHR is lol.

[Mercury]

Having her refer to the Phoenix stories as something someone else did isn't complex. It just contradicts what cooler, more edifying, and more satisfying stories said. Saying that she can't acknowledge she is Phoenix without mentioning it every other story is gaslighting.

That's your opinion, which you are entitled to have. But the fact of the matter is that Jean referring to Phoenix in third-person tense doesn't erase her identity as Phoenix. She did it in Uncanny X-Men, New X-Men, Phoenix Endsong and other stories, all while literally being Phoenix. Check it.

Tweets and marvel.com articles are written by pretty much interns or that social media dude who does the This Is Marvel videos for the social accounts. They don't dictate canon.

That's a huge question with Jean appearing on the same page as a WHR mention: will the WPotC be re-canonized? Right now she doesn't even know what the WHR is lol.

Your anecdotes about Marvel’s marketing practices are amusing, but frankly, all I care about is the fact that Marvel authorized, published, and promoted an article that effectively underscores that White Phoenix has always been canon. And they did so specifically to add context to the current storyline unfolding in Jean Grey and Fall of X.

[PhoenixStudies]

Whose saying White Phoenix isn't canon!? Let me at 'em!

Jean has appeared as White Phoenix in Classic X-Men #43 backstory, X-Men Forever #3, New X-Men #154, Phoenix Endsong #5, Wolverine (vol 4) #8, Phoenix Resurrection #5 (brief panel when the Phoenix says they can transcend).

Hope appearing as White Phoenix was a nod to Jean. And she was likely mimicking Jean whose essence was within the Phoenix.

Jean has appeared as White Phoenix in some What If stories as well such as What If: Rise and Fall of the Shiar Empire. She appears on the last page to help Vulcan and she wears a White Phoenix gown. She also appeared has White Phoenix in What If: Avengers v. X-Men to help Wolverine and to restore the world.

A part of the Jean/Phoenix duality appeared in a white and gold form to Rachel in Excalibur #64 as well.

[Kitty&Piotr<3]

That's your opinion, which you are entitled to have. But the fact of the matter is that Jean referring to Phoenix in third-person tense doesn't erase her identity as Phoenix. She did it in Uncanny X-Men, New X-Men, Phoenix Endsong and other stories, all while literally being Phoenix. Check it.



Your anecdotes about Marvel’s marketing practices are amusing, but frankly, all I care about is the fact that Marvel authorized, published, and promoted an article that effectively underscores that White Phoenix has always been canon. And they did so specifically to add context to the current storyline unfolding in Jean Grey and Fall of X.

My point about the marvel.com articles etc is that they don't know what's happening with Jean Grey and Fall of X to be able to add context to it. Traditonally, Marvel doesn't even clue other writers into what's happening in books they don't work on outside of specific need-to-knows and idea retreats.

That's something that will be missed about the Krakoa era, the Slack work-chat of it all. The X-office not being siloed, with all the creators talking and sharing, was unusual, as they oft reminded us. They aren't giving heads up about stories to the college kid who is getting everyone's coffee. The plans for the future would be all over Twitter.com lol

[Mercury]

Whose saying White Phoenix isn't canon!? Let me at 'em!

Jean has appeared as White Phoenix in Classic X-Men #43 backstory, X-Men Forever #3, New X-Men #154, Phoenix Endsong #5, Wolverine (vol 4) #8, Phoenix Resurrection #5 (brief panel when the Phoenix says they can transcend).

Hope appearing as White Phoenix was a nod to Jean. And she was likely mimicking Jean whose essence was within the Phoenix.

Jean has appeared as White Phoenix in some What If stories as well such as What If: Rise and Fall of the Shiar Empire. She appears on the last page to help Vulcan and she wears a White Phoenix gown. She also appeared has White Phoenix in What If: Avengers v. X-Men to help Wolverine and to restore the world.

A part of the Jean/Phoenix duality appeared in a white and gold form to Rachel in Excalibur #64 as well.

Let's start spilling the gospel…

[Mercury]

My point about the marvel.com articles etc is that they don't know what's happening with Jean Grey and Fall of X to be able to add context to it. Traditonally, Marvel doesn't even clue other writers into what's happening in books they don't work on outside of specific need-to-knows and idea retreats.

And my point is that Marvel doesn't commission, authorize, publish, and market an article/official current-story guide that contradicts what they consider canon. White Phoenix and Jean’s singular identity as such are canon. That's that on that.

[Kitty&Piotr<3]

Except that literally isn't that on that lol. Only the latest comic published counts.

[Mercury]

Bleeding Cool ranks Jean Grey #4 (2023) #10 in sales, noting, “Jean Grey shines…[and] continues to outperform for her final issue, so Marvel Comics might want to consider Louise Simonson giving her an ongoing series.”

https://bleedingcool.com/comics/immo...november-2023/