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  1. #46
    Ultimate Member jackolover's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kingaliencracker View Post
    If the question is whether creative talents such as Byrne, Stern, Claremont, Miller, etc. would have found success without Jim Shooter, then the answer is yes. Talent is talent, and I believe those individuals would have still created amazing stories with or without Shooter.

    If the question is whether things would have played out virtually the same without Shooter, then that's obviously more difficult to answer, but being honest I would say no. Regardless of my feelings about Shooter as a human being and boss (not from personal experience but based on what's been said about him by those who know him), he did place certain people in the right spots to get the best and most out of them. And in continuing to be honest, those creative talents I listed did not have consistent success without Shooter, although it's hard to say if that was just because they overstayed their welcome, their talents diminished, or if it was because Shooter was that great of an editor. I also give him a little bit of a break since he didn't own Marvel and had bosses to answer to also. And virtually everyone agrees that he cleaned up a lot of messy things in his first few years at Marvel.

    Still, it's hard to separate the negative from the positive. I tend to focus on the latter and not dwell on the bad stuff.
    It’s good to see people put a positive spin by introducing a thread like this, and talking about other eras as well. I always heard, (never experienced Shooter myself) of Shooters reputation second hand, but, recalling the examples of his era in this thread does inspire some memories of greatness. I still think of the Quesada/Bendis/Millar era in those terms too, despite where it’s led.

    Do I regret having wanted the Quesada era to happen? No. They were the most enjoyable reading of my Marvel experience, (apart from the 1965 serialisations of Hulk, Dr Strange, Thor, FF, ASM, Cap, X-Men and SHIELD, that is). Even though the Quesada era ended in destruction of the MU, I see the MU as a dying star, in the last death throes, burst out in glory. You can’t have these unimaginable heroes exist, without them burning out and dying. That’s the way I see it.

    Maybe, one day, Marvel can reclaim that inspiration again?

  2. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zero Hunter View Post
    Most modern editors are just empty chairs compared to the 80s and 90s. The Quesada era ushered in the "let them do what they want we will just fix it with retcons latter" attitude that is still so pervasive in especially Marvel today.
    Valeria D'Orazio has talked about how editors will pitch (read:demand) certain stories to be written a certain way and leave the writer to deal with the fallout.

    Nothing happens at Marvel without the enforcement and/or approval of the editor. Very few, if any writers have complete carte blanche to do what they want. There's a reason One More Day has yet to be undone and it isn't because no writer wants to do it.

  3. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by James Cameron View Post
    For sure. But he was a creative at heart, as well. He had storytelling rules that every writer had to adhere to. People called him a dictator, but without him, the 80s would not have been Marvel's heyday. He made some business decisions that were definitely playing it safe (banning all LGBTQ stuff from the books for instance) but at the end of the day he cared about the characters and telling good stories. I miss that.
    Marvel should re-hire Jim Shooter back into the fold. Or make Roger Stern EiC....

  4. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Valeria D'Orazio has talked about how editors will pitch (read:demand) certain stories to be written a certain way and leave the writer to deal with the fallout.

    Nothing happens at Marvel without the enforcement and/or approval of the editor. Very few, if any writers have complete carte blanche to do what they want. There's a reason One More Day has yet to be undone and it isn't because no writer wants to do it.
    The alternative was to end Marvel-616 instead of JoeQ cherry picking a story where Peter and MJ make a deal with the Devil to save Aunt May's life. I would rather had seen Marvel-616 end with Peter and MJ married. But the new Marvel Universe, have Peter Parker in a long term relationship with Betty Brant.

  5. #50
    Extraordinary Member Nomads1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darthfury78 View Post
    Marvel should re-hire Jim Shooter back into the fold. Or make Roger Stern EiC....
    That would, IMHO, be amazing.

    Peace

  6. #51
    Ultimate Member marhawkman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darthfury78 View Post
    The alternative was to end Marvel-616 instead of JoeQ cherry picking a story where Peter and MJ make a deal with the Devil to save Aunt May's life. I would rather had seen Marvel-616 end with Peter and MJ married. But the new Marvel Universe, have Peter Parker in a long term relationship with Betty Brant.
    How would not doing OMD have resulted in the entire franchise's destruction?

    Pete's former secret ID? meh. That's been done before. I don't think he needs one.

  7. #52

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    The publishing arm of the "big two" companies has now become such a small part of their parent companies' revenue stream that it hardly matters anymore. All that the comics do these days is to keep the IPs going. Hence the phrase "retroactive continuity" constantly resetting everything.

    It's like pro-wrestling. The WWF probably makes a majority of its revenue with licensing and merchandising as opposed to selling tickets to live events.

    Monthly reading collapsed beginning in the 90s and hasn't looked back, beyond some brief resurgences here and there. Hence under Quesada, the mantra was "Anything Goes!" Stretch the stories out (for TPB purposes), no first-person introspection, etc.

  8. #53

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    Quote Originally Posted by marhawkman View Post
    How would not doing OMD have resulted in the entire franchise's destruction?

    Pete's former secret ID? meh. That's been done before. I don't think he needs one.
    Ending Earth-616 is Darthfury's personal solution for how OMD "should" have ended. It's one of his many, many ideas that nobody BUT him likes.

  9. #54
    OUTRAGEOUS!! Thor-Ul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darthfury78 View Post
    Marvel should re-hire Jim Shooter back into the fold. Or make Roger Stern EiC....
    That would be a really bad idea. Even if I consider SHooter was mostly positive for Marvel, bringing him back it would be a bad strategy. Marvel isn't the same, market isn't the same, readers aren't the same.
    "Never assign to malice what is adequately explained by stupidity or ignorance."

    "Great stories will always return to their original forms"

    "Nobody is more dangerous than he who imagines himself pure in heart; for his purity, by definition, is unassailable." James Baldwin

  10. #55
    Astonishing Member kingaliencracker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thor-Ul View Post
    That would be a really bad idea. Even if I consider SHooter was mostly positive for Marvel, bringing him back it would be a bad strategy. Marvel isn't the same, market isn't the same, readers aren't the same.
    Right? Even giving him some slack since he had bosses to answer to, this is the same guy who barred gay characters, wanted all stories wrapped up in one issue, and punished writers who were even a few days late.

    Bring him in now and most of Marvel's creative talent will jump ship.

  11. #56
    Extraordinary Member Nomads1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kingaliencracker View Post
    Bring him in now and most of Marvel's creative talent will jump ship.
    Stop trying to convince me!

    Peace

  12. #57
    OUTRAGEOUS!! Thor-Ul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kingaliencracker View Post
    Right? Even giving him some slack since he had bosses to answer to, this is the same guy who barred gay characters, wanted all stories wrapped up in one issue, and punished writers who were even a few days late.

    Bring him in now and most of Marvel's creative talent will jump ship.
    Honestly, I think Shooter would had no problem today having gay characters. He was the guy who pushed, unsuccessfully, to have black characters in a very conservative DC. If I say I would prefered him not to be on charge again, is because the medium is different. But I could be wrong and SHooter as chief could improve Marvel. I can't say for sure, but experience has showed me than bring old talent back to make an bussiness "great again"with success is the exception and not the rule.
    "Never assign to malice what is adequately explained by stupidity or ignorance."

    "Great stories will always return to their original forms"

    "Nobody is more dangerous than he who imagines himself pure in heart; for his purity, by definition, is unassailable." James Baldwin

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