Geoff Johns question

[EmeraldGladiator]

I understand that the announcement of Johns' foray into creator owned independent comics heralds the end of his DC comics run but I find it curious that Johns was helming a linewide reboot, Doomsday Clock, when some sort of coup de etat happened and the reins of DC were handed over to the Metal crew which led to massive delays in Doomsday Clock. Then Johns seemingly secured certain corners of the DC universe to run, JSA, Stargirl and LSH this project experiences massive delays and it turns out that once again plans had changed and now Johns was on the way out. Johns is one of my all time favorite DC writers but obviously he made some powerful enemies or wasn't the best head honcho back when he was the golden child at DC. Things like this have happened before I think about Jim Shooter and Paul Levitz rumors back in the day. I am personally disappointed because it appeared Johns had plans to reinvigorate two of my favorite DC franchises the JSA and the LSH that haven't had the best care recently. Is this a matter of someone more liked by the PTB had alternate plans for the properties or was this just the end of a relationship that reached the irreconcilable differences phase? There was a time when he could do no wrong where I was concerned he breathed new life into two of my favorite franchises, GL and JSA and even brought back my favorite version of the Legion with the Retroboot. To be honest it has been a while since he put out a banger, I had high hopes for Doomsday Clock but alas but I will never forget the joy of the Sinestro Corps War the last time of pure comic bliss for me. I know we might not know the truth of it because Johns might be to professional to spill the tea but I have been surprised at the level of intel people on this site can get from "inside sources" from time to time.

[CaptCleghorn]

two of my favorite DC franchises the JSA and the LSH

Seeing as these are my two favorite DC franchises, I am curious as to if there is a strong correlation between JSA and LSH fans.

[EmeraldGladiator]

Seeing as these are my two favorite DC franchises, I am curious as to if there is a strong correlation between JSA and LSH fans.

It would be curious if there were one being rooted in DC's golden age past and the other being associated with DC's future. Then again Fred Flintstone and George Jetson were known to hang out. There is a probably a strong correlation to what books you were exposed to that you liked in a era when you were really into comics. I remember as a kid going into the LCS with my dad to trade comics (they did that back in the day two for one) or buy some and maybe it was the colorful costumes but I was always drawn to Alan Scott, Kent Nelson and Sylvester Pembleton in the JSA and Garth Ranzz and all the other cool Cockrum Legion redesigns. For me my 3 pillars of DC (though I am a Satellite JLA'er and respect and loved the Wolfman Titans) my three favorite franchises are Green Lantern, the Legion of Super Heroes and the Justice Society of America.

[godisawesome]

I understand that the announcement of Johns' foray into creator owned independent comics heralds the end of his DC comics run but I find it curious that Johns was helming a linewide reboot, Doomsday Clock, when some sort of coup de etat happened and the reins of DC were handed over to the Metal crew which led to massive delays in Doomsday Clock. Then Johns seemingly secured certain corners of the DC universe to run, JSA, Stargirl and LSH this project experiences massive delays and it turns out that once again plans had changed and now Johns was on the way out. Johns is one of my all time favorite DC writers but obviously he made some powerful enemies or wasn't the best head honcho back when he was the golden child at DC. Things like this have happened before I think about Jim Shooter and Paul Levitz rumors back in the day. I am personally disappointed because it appeared Johns had plans to reinvigorate two of my favorite DC franchises the JSA and the LSH that haven't had the best care recently. Is this a matter of someone more liked by the PTB had alternate plans for the properties or was this just the end of a relationship that reached the irreconcilable differences phase? There was a time when he could do no wrong where I was concerned he breathed new life into two of my favorite franchises, GL and JSA and even brought back my favorite version of the Legion with the Retroboot. To be honest it has been a while since he put out a banger, I had high hopes for Doomsday Clock but alas but I will never forget the joy of the Sinestro Corps War the last time of pure comic bliss for me. I know we might not know the truth of it because Johns might be to professional to spill the tea but I have been surprised at the level of intel people on this site can get from "inside sources" from time to time.

If i had to guess...

- Didio (and his compatriots) likely "clicked" with Johns back when their marketing philosophies aligned with his storytelling style of retconning and abbreviating things to make selling massive and epic crossoverss and story arcs worked...
- ...then came to oppose each other when Johns's solution to the New 52's collapse was to embrace continuity heavy nostalgia (always a part of his style as well as the retcon-enthusiasm) and it clashed with their personal biases and fears, leading to Rebirth's subsequent derailment when they tried to reject his ideas with disastrous results...
-... but Johns himself also slowed down in terms of production and consistent quality, while also slipping from his attempt to be an ideas guy for the larger multi-media franchises...
- ... and since Johns was still in some ways part of the "old guard" with Didio, his eventual departure is really more a delayed result of their departure as well, since he's probably still respected but seen as a little out of step with the current new leadership, and probably a little bit too expensive for a job that has now slipped back to being more journeyman-quality.

I suspect he'll make some return later, but I think his heyday passed him, and Didio and co. wasted his last real campaign over philosophical disagreements.

[astro@work]

Seeing as these are my two favorite DC franchises, I am curious as to if there is a strong correlation between JSA and LSH fans.

I am a big fan of both, being the past and future of the DCU. My problem with the "present day" is that it seems eternally stuck in status quo.

The LSH of the future always had the freedom to do interesting things with the characters, such as kill them or marry them off. Stakes were real.
In the case of the JSA/past, there was no option but to move the characters forward as they hit the present. Again, their lives moved forward for good or bad.

I've always thought this was the reason the two bookends were the most interesting to me.

[Sutekh]

I am a big fan of both, being the past and future of the DCU. My problem with the "present day" is that it seems eternally stuck in status quo.

The LSH of the future always had the freedom to do interesting things with the characters, such as kill them or marry them off. Stakes were real.
In the case of the JSA/past, there was no option but to move the characters forward as they hit the present. Again, their lives moved forward for good or bad.

I've always thought this was the reason the two bookends were the most interesting to me.

Pretty much my thought, too. The fact that the heroes of the past and future weren't as 'set in stone' as the core characters in the modern day meant that they could change grow, get married, have kids, retire or die. Anything could happen to them, that could not happen in any lasting way to Bruce or Clark or Diana. Karate Kid could stay dead. Jay and Joan could stay married. The next creative team wasn't waiting in the wings to push the reset button and break up any new relationships, regress any character growth, or resurrect any dead characters.

The stories set in the future and the past could actually affect the characters.

Also a reason I'm a fan of younger / newer heroes, because the possibility of change is baked in. Dick Grayson isn't going back to the short pants and Robin identity. He was allowed to grow up, and new Robins, like *three of them,* have rotated through that identity and costume. He's been allowed to move forward, and that's not so common among his peers, who get to progress forward occasionally into a new relationship or new costume or new situation, but then get yanked back to default within a year or two, when a new creative team comes along and jams that reset button so that they can reinvent the wheel with new relationships or new costumes or new situations, again, that the *next* creative team will undo the hot second their contact ends...

[kingaliencracker]

I love Geoff Johns. He's easily my top-10 favorite writers of all-time (maybe even top-5). But I think he peaked creatively (at least from a consistency standpoint) with Blackest Night. Nothing he did after that came close to comparing to what he did the previous decade. I'm sure the behind-the-scenes stuff contributed to that, and I would love to read a book about it someday if anyone bothers to write one. But it's probably for the best that he's moving on from DC for the time being. I'm sure from a creative standpoint he feels stifled, especially given that at one point he was in a higher position at DC than Didio and Lee.

I will say that the Rebirth special was easily the single best comic book I've read since All Star Superman. But Doomsday Clock and Three Jokers were unmitigated disasters.

[exile001]

I am personally disappointed because it appeared Johns had plans to reinvigorate two of my favorite DC franchises the JSA and the LSH that haven't had the best care recently.

It's always funny to read this without a hint of irony, when it was Johns' holding onto them for himself that was a part of why they didn't have books for so long (or had to tread water until he was ready).

[blunt_eastwood]

I love Geoff Johns. He's easily my top-10 favorite writers of all-time (maybe even top-5). But I think he peaked creatively (at least from a consistency standpoint) with Blackest Night. Nothing he did after that came close to comparing to what he did the previous decade. I'm sure the behind-the-scenes stuff contributed to that, and I would love to read a book about it someday if anyone bothers to write one. But it's probably for the best that he's moving on from DC for the time being. I'm sure from a creative standpoint he feels stifled, especially given that at one point he was in a higher position at DC than Didio and Lee.

I will say that the Rebirth special was easily the single best comic book I've read since All Star Superman. But Doomsday Clock and Three Jokers were unmitigated disasters.

Out of curiosity, why do you feel that way about Doomsday Clock? I really liked it. But I agree that Three Jokers was nonsense.

[kingaliencracker]

Out of curiosity, why do you feel that way about Doomsday Clock? I really liked it. But I agree that Three Jokers was nonsense.

Doomsday Clock was delayed, confusing, the ending rushed, and wound up having zero impact on the DCU. It should have been one of the most epic stories of all-time.

[CaptCleghorn]

Doomsday Clock was delayed, confusing, the ending rushed, and wound up having zero impact on the DCU. It should have been one of the most epic stories of all-time.

never mind. nothing that hasn't been said before.

[MajorHoy]

Doomsday Clock was delayed, confusing, the ending rushed, and wound up having zero impact on the DCU. It should have been one of the most epic stories of all-time.

Unfortunately, many of the Geoff Johns stories I've read seemed to have interesting starts, then just paddled in place for the middle before hitting an "end" that seemed rushed or like Johns had already lost interest in the idea and just wanted to get through it so he could start on the next great story.
When was the last time he stuck the landing?

[Sutekh]

Unfortunately, many of the Geoff Johns stories I've read seemed to have interesting starts, then just paddled in place for the middle before hitting an "end" that seemed rushed or like Johns had already lost interest in the idea and just wanted to get through it so he could start on the next great story.
When was the last time he stuck the landing?

I feel like that happens a lot. Intriguing starts, lots of possibilities, and then, it seems to me, the primary writer / creator gets bored and wanders off to do other stuff, leaving a bunch of other writers who have very different notions to go in all sorts of directions that don't necessarily flow well with the story the primary author had mapped out, followed by a weird limp inconsistent ending. I just described the X-Men Krakoa story arc, but could as easily have been talking about the Buffy TV show, which went to hell, IMO, when the primary writer saw something else shiny and ran off to chase it, leaving the show (and the audience) in the hands of a showrunner with very different ideas about characterization and plotting.

With this sort of abandoned plotline / storyarc, veering off into whatever new direction the new writers want to take it in, I feel like a hottie suckered me to get in their fancy car, promising we were headed to Vegas, changed their mind halfway across Nevada and left me standing by the side of the road in the desert...

[EmeraldGladiator]

I don't blame Johns for Doonsday Clock or this Golden Age debacle it appears at least to me a self describing Johns fan/apologist that Geoff had plans for both but those plans got changed by powers higher up which is why there were long delays (rewrites and redraws) If you think Saturn Girl was always intended to blow away like dust like she was in the Infinity War then I got a bridge to sell. In fact that scene felt a lot like Peter David's Genis rant at the end of Captain Marvel. Giving the bosses the finger. I was surprised by the Golden Age stuff but he is a known seller and maybe they would give him his own corner to play in, apart from the rest of DC, like JMS on Thor.

[kingaliencracker]

I don't blame Johns for Doonsday Clock or this Golden Age debacle it appears at least to me a self describing Johns fan/apologist that Geoff had plans for both but those plans got changed by powers higher up which is why there were long delays (rewrites and redraws) If you think Saturn Girl was always intended to blow away like dust like she was in the Infinity War then I got a bridge to sell. In fact that scene felt a lot like Peter David's Genis rant at the end of Captain Marvel. Giving the bosses the finger. I was surprised by the Golden Age stuff but he is a known seller and maybe they would give him his own corner to play in, apart from the rest of DC, like JMS on Thor.

You either believe Johns' delays caused DC to ignore Doomsday Clock, or Doomsday Clock was ignored by DC's brass, causing Johns to rewrite it.

Given Johns' long history of delayed comic books, I believe it was the former.